Brexit matters

[najaB]

I think it's more the mechanisms of how disputes are resolved etc. There will be a particular way of resolving them neutrally that operates with the arrangements agreed with Canada, Japan etc. If we're proposing to use the same types of mechanism, then I don't see how either side can be agrrieved.

I may have missed it, but I don't recall dispute arbitration being raised as a sticking point in arranging our post-Brexit relationship with the EU. People raise accepting the jurisdiction of the ECHR as a court of final appeal, but that's got nothing to do with Brexit.

As far as I'm aware, we're not proposing to include services, which is already a concession to the EU, as that's an area of strenth for us, whereas manufacuring is a strong area for Europe.

So, we're not trying to get an agreement that covers the most important sector of our economy and that's a good thing...?

 

[yorksrob]

I may have missed it, but I don't recall dispute arbitration being raised as a sticking point in arranging our post-Brexit relationship with the EU. People raise accepting the jurisdiction of the ECHR as a court of final appeal, but that's got nothing to do with Brexit.


So, we're not trying to get an agreement that covers the most important sector of our economy and that's a good thing...?

I'm sure that I've read that there are some sticking points in how the trade agreement itself is arbitrated.

I'm not saying it's a good thing that one of our strong sectors is being left out, however it does seem that globally, culturally people are more comfortable with the idea of trading goods from one country to another, than services, which implies a greater convergence in how a country is governed, which probably accounts for the concentration on goods. If we think that a trade agreement is a good thing, then that requires concessions, and leaving out services is arguably a concession on our side.

 

[Domh245]

There's no such thing as a "<insert country here> style" deal. Each deal is negotiated separately and depends on the goods/services traded between the countries involved. And in any case, if we got exactly the same deal as Canada has it wouldn't help us much as it doesn't cover much in the way of services, especially financial services which would still largely sink The City as a financial hub.

The one exception to that is the much vaunted Australia style deal - because it's no deal at all

 

[Vespa]

I noticed comments and response to my own comment, tended to mostly by Remainers, there is still the inability to accept the result and so continues the recriminations that has marked many arguments about Brexit since.

The question on the voting paper was clear and unambiguous

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?"

I read the question and understood the implication and voted accordingly and unlike Ireland we haven't been made to vote again and again until the "correct" answer was the result.

The question goes beyond economics, it cover sovereignty, court supremacy, political institutions, governance. Do we want to march further into a United States of Europe or an independent state in its own right, because when we were taken in by Ted Heath WITHOUT a referendum, we were promised that this is a purely a trading union not a political one, however if you were examine the subsequent treaties signed, its clear that a political union is the agenda..

This infuenced my vote more than anything else.

 

[DarloRich]

I noticed comments and response to my own comment, tended to mostly by Remainers, there is still the inability to accept the result and so continues the recriminations that has marked many arguments about Brexit since.

The question on the voting paper was clear and unambiguous

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?"

I read the question and understood the implication and voted accordingly and unlike Ireland we haven't been made to vote again and again until the "correct" answer was the result.

The question goes beyond economics, it cover sovereignty, court supremacy, political institutions, governance. Do we want to march further into a United States of Europe or an independent state in its own right, because when we were taken in by Ted Heath WITHOUT a referendum, we were promised that this is a purely a trading union not a political one, however if you were examine the subsequent treaties signed, its clear that a political union is the agenda..

This infuenced my vote more than anything else.

Brexit fans seem unable to divorce wanting to minimise the self harm of Brexit with not accepting Brexit. I accept that we voted to leave and that we should leave. I think it is a stupid decision that will damage the fabric and economic performance of our country and make the lives of our citizens harder and more expensive but that is the choice we made. I accept that your reasons for voting for Brexit are genuine and are important to you. Personally, I think they focus on intangibles and concepts rather than reality and in particular economic and social reality but that is your choice. We must each decide what is important and what drives our views.

You seem happy to accept that the value of that blue passport is worth the pain that I fear is coming. I don't. I accept Brexit is the choice we made but I want to reduce, as far as possible, that economic and social pain.

 

[nlogax]

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?"

Your interpretation of the referendum question sums up the problem with it. My interpretation differed. Being technically outside of the EU but sharing in certain cross-union trade and regulatory trade mechanisms shouldn't have been mutually exclusive. It certainly wasn't marketed as such even by Leave, with the exception of a few outliers.

 

[DarloRich]

Your interpretation of the referendum question sums up the problem with it. My interpretation differed. Being technically outside of the EU but sharing in certain cross-union trade and regulatory trade mechanisms shouldn't have been mutually exclusive. It certainly wasn't marketed as such even by Leave, with the exception of a few outliers.

The problem with the question is that it was binary. In or out. We voted to leave. What does leave look like? Ask 4 people and you will get 7 answers! The issue is not leaving. The issue is HOW we leave.

 

[Vespa]

The problem with the question is that it was binary. In or out. We voted to leave. What does leave look like? Ask 4 people and you will get 7 answers! The issue is not leaving. The issue is HOW we leave.

Leave to me is out completely as the question did ask.
That's the absolute implication of the question.

 

[nlogax]

The problem with the question is that it was binary. In or out. We voted to leave. What does leave look like? Ask 4 people and you will get 7 answers! The issue is not leaving. The issue is HOW we leave.

Quite. If we needed to be more specific maybe the question should have been something like, "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union with the specific desired outcomes of leaving behind free trade, slowing transportation of essential goods, curtailing detailed data sharing designed to prevent or solve crime, denying education opportunities across Europe, removing free, basic cross-EU provision of basic healthcare to British residents, re-introduction of driving permits and raising the prices / potentially lowering the availability of goods and services?"

Leave to me is out completely as the question did ask.
That's the absolute implication of the question.

To you maybe. Not to millions of others. Note that even TODAY no-one actually understands what 'leave' means. Quite probably all of the above if tonight doesn't go well.

 

[DarloRich]

Leave to me is out completely as the question did ask.
That's the absolute implication of the question.

That's fine as your view. Again, I think this is simplistic view but accept that you disagree. Personally, I am not fine with no deal. I think that is preposterous.

 

[alex397]

Leave to me is out completely as the question did ask.
That's the absolute implication of the question.

That’s fair enough, but that’s not what it meant to every leave voter. It wasn’t made clear during the referendum, and still isn’t clear, with less than a month to go.

 

[Ianno87]

Leave to me is out completely as the question did ask.
That's the absolute implication of the question.

But take the stereotypical Leave-voting Ex-Pat in Spain who are, apparently, surprised that "Leave" means losing their own rights, as per your very literal interpretation of the question.

A bit like Covid restrictions, people took Leave to mean "anything that only affects other peoples' rights they use, and not my own or those that I exercise myself".

 

[XAM2175]

I noticed comments and response to my own comment, tended to mostly by Remainers, there is still the inability to accept the result and so continues the recriminations that has marked many arguments about Brexit since.

I see no inability to accept the result; merely some people disagreeing with your position and the reasoning you give for it. Even on a larger scale I'd suggest that the vast majority of people regardless of their political lean do accept that the outcome of the referendum was withdrawal from the EU.

You will however probably find a number of points of concern from remain-leaning people, including but not limited to:

• The issue of the UK's EU membership was arguably too complex to be reduced to a single binding referendum, as evidenced by the amount of effort required to renounce it.
• The simple leave/remain question was ambiguous in that it left the timeframe and exact nature of withdrawal open to interpretation and revision by campaign groups and the government, as is well illustrated by the vast difference between the Brexit promised by the Leave campaign and the Brexit we have actually received.
• The pool of eligible voters deliberately excluded citizens of EU and EEA nations other than Ireland who were resident in the UK and thus materially affected by a decision to leave, as well as a smaller number of British citizens living in the EU who were no longer eligible (or who had never been eligible) to vote in the UK.

And beyond all of that I think it's fairly safe to say that very very very few people had any desire at all for the withdrawal process to be conducted in the shambolic manner it has been so far. How can anybody seriously defend Johnson's about-face on the Withdrawal Agreement that he'd described only months earlier as being "oven-ready"? Iain Duncan Smith's admission that he'd voted for said agreement without actually understanding it? The reckless contempt for the Good Friday Agreement? Converting Kent into the Toilet of England? The shameless power-grab of the Internal Market Bill (which even with the removal of the sections of greatest concern to the EU as announced today is still hugely undermining to the powers of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Senedd)?

Let's not forget also the "deadline" of the end of this month is one set by the UK government and one that could have been extended even if only to give a bit more breathing room, what with Covid and all.

unlike Ireland we haven't been made to vote again and again until the "correct" answer was the result

The fact that people persist with this line even now is quite frankly pathetic. After the first rejection of each amendment to the Irish constitution the Irish government sought and received amendments to the relevant EU treaties (Nice and Lisbon, respectively) that resolved the points of contention and allowed for the passing of both amendments. It's hardly any different in principle to the routine practices involved in passing legislation in any bicameral Parliament.

The one exception to that is the much vaunted Australia style deal - because it's no deal at all

It's actually even worse than that - Australia's had a number of industry-specific trade and mutual-recognition agreements with the EU for a some time now (especially concerning agriculture, as the EU is a significant customer for Australian beef and lamb exports), and is currently several years into negotiating a comprehensive FTA. By comparison the UK will have only the agreements it's managed to cobble together this year, and this is a significant difference given that the UK's trade with the EU is not only worth nearly six times more than Australia's but also much more diverse.

 

[najaB]

Leave to me is out completely as the question did ask.

No, the only question that was asked was if we should remain a member or leave the Union. To go back to an analogy used in a previous thread, "Should we stay in this house or move to a different one" says nothing about the house you're moving to - is it bought or rented, smaller or larger, urban, suburban, or rural, new build or grade one listed? Those are some pretty important things to know.

You're basically saying that it was clear from the question where we were moving to, and that nobody (either for or against the move) has any right to pass comment the new house.

 

[Vespa]

No, the only question that was asked was if we should remain a member or leave the Union. To go back to an analogy used in a previous thread, "Should we stay in this house or move to a different one" says nothing about the house you're moving to - is it bought or rented, smaller or larger, urban, suburban, or rural, new build or grade one listed? Those are some pretty important things to know.

You're basically saying that it was clear from the question where we were moving to, and that nobody (either for or against the move) has any right to pass comment the new house.

It's a very very weak analogy to use to explain what leaving the European Union means.

The best analogy would be a golf club, if you're not feeling you're getting the full benefit for your fees to play golf, the committee constantly over ruling your ideas and suggestions, imposing rules that benefits a few and you have to abide by it, playing golf is less important and empire building is more important, then it would be time to leave the club and set up on your own and be happier for it.

 

[birchesgreen]

That's fine until you ask... nay... demand you can still use the course even though you are no longer a member.

 

[najaB]

It's a very very weak analogy to use to explain what leaving the European Union means.

It's not an analogy for what leaving the EU meant, it's an analogy for the question asked on the referendum. For which it is perfectly accurate - there was a wide range of possible interpretations for what "Leave" actually meant, none of which were on the ballot paper.

You're saying that you knew exactly what you were voting for when you chose Leave, I know at least two people who also knew exactly what they were voting for and it wasn't leaving the customs union. I can't see how you could all be right if it was perfectly clear what "Leave" actually meant.

 

[DarloRich]

That's fine until you ask... nay... demand you can still use the course even though you are no longer a member.

But the issue is not simply wanting to use the course without paying. It is using the bar, the changing room, the showers, the free soap, the pro shop, get some coaching, invite your mates over, breach the dress code, use the driving range, park in the disabled spot and help yourself to the carvery free of charge!

 

[Vespa]

But the issue is not simply wanting to use the course without paying. It is using the bar, the changing room, the showers, the free soap, the pro shop, get some coaching, invite your mates over, breach the dress code, use the driving range, park in the disabled spot and help yourself to the carvery free of charge!

Setting up on your also means creating your own rules, bar and course and be happier for it.

That's what I'm saying when you leave a club you don't like, I thought you guys could have understood that, instead you're going back to the usual remainer recriminations again.

I stand by my vote to Leave because I believed in it, I fully understood the consequences, leaving the custom union, single market, EHC, banking passporting rights, I am under no illusions and as we all know that the world has changed, it's more global and not everything is made in Europe compare to the 70s, most manufacturing has moved to the far East.

 

[XAM2175]

I thought you guys could have understood that, instead you're going back to the usual remainer recriminations again.

Help us understand, then - respond to post #77:

It's not an analogy for what leaving the EU meant, it's an analogy for the question asked on the referendum. For which it is perfectly accurate - there was a wide range of possible interpretations for what "Leave" actually meant, none of which were on the ballot paper.

You're saying that you knew exactly what you were voting for when you chose Leave, I know at least two people who also knew exactly what they were voting for and it wasn't leaving the customs union. I can't see how you could all be right if it was perfectly clear what "Leave" actually meant.

 

[birchesgreen]

Setting up on your also means creating your own rules, bar and course and be happier for it.

Which few people want to use as most prefer the bigger clubs.

I'm glad you understand the consequences of leaving, a lot of your peers do not.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The thing is, despite how hard Breixt will be, this position has been decades in the making. No political party has embraced Europe and treated it more like a problem than a key part of Britain's being. Even New Labour somehow managed to view Europe as an awkward friend than the family we are meant to be a part of. British society for decades has distrusted the EU and very reluctantly participated in it. I see no reason why we should stay, because we never had and never would make use of our membership.

 

[Chester1]

The thing is, despite how hard Breixt will be, this position has been decades in the making. No political party has embraced Europe and treated it more like a problem than a key part of Britain's being. Even New Labour somehow managed to view Europe as an awkward friend than the family we are meant to be a part of. British society for decades has distrusted the EU and very reluctantly participated in it. I see no reason why we should stay, because we never had and never would make use of our membership.

Exactly. The remain campaign was anti brexit not pro EU. Had we placed importance in our education system on learning other european languages and had British emigration to the EU got even remotely close to the level of EU immigration then brexit would never have have happened.

Its interesting how little attention the deal yesterday on Northern Ireland has received in the media. Its not just that the UK ditched the breaches to the withdrawal treaty, the rules and procedures to manage the NI protocol have been agreed by the EU and the UK. The list of imported goods considered to be low, high and medium risk and the subsequent processes for them have also been agreed. Its a collosal step to resolving Northern Ireland as a brexit issue. Considering the weight put on Northern Ireland being a full part of the UK by brexiteers and the emphasis on the risk to the Good Friday Agreement by remainers (and "Irish" Americans), you would think finalising Northern Ireland's post brexit arrangements would be massive news.

 

[Ianno87]

Exactly. The remain campaign was anti brexit not pro EU. Had we placed importance in our education system on learning other european languages and had British emigration to the EU got even remotely close to the level of EU immigration then brexit would never have have happened.

Doing some quick Googling there are:

-1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU (so roughly 1.5% of the total UK population)

-3.7 million EU citizens living in the UK (about 0.7% of the total EU population)

So a much higher proportion of UK citizens live in the EU than EU citizens live in the UK.

Food for thought.

 

[radamfi]

Exactly. The remain campaign was anti brexit not pro EU. Had we placed importance in our education system on learning other european languages and had British emigration to the EU got even remotely close to the level of EU immigration then brexit would never have have happened.

How good are the Irish at languages?

What languages do French people speak?

The language proficient Swiss are not in the EU.

Its interesting how little attention the deal yesterday on Northern Ireland has received in the media. Its not just that the UK ditched the breaches to the withdrawal treaty, the rules and procedures to manage the NI protocol have been agreed by the EU and the UK. The list of imported goods considered to be low, high and medium risk and the subsequent processes for them have also been agreed. Its a collosal step to resolving Northern Ireland as a brexit issue. Considering the weight put on Northern Ireland being a full part of the UK by brexiteers and the emphasis on the risk to the Good Friday Agreement by remainers (and "Irish" Americans), you would think finalising Northern Ireland's post brexit arrangements would be massive news.

This hopefully might mean further climbdowns by the UK.

 

[Chester1]

Doing some quick Googling there are:

-1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU (so roughly 1.5% of the total UK population)

-3.7 million EU citizens living in the UK (about 0.7% of the total EU population)

So a much higher proportion of UK citizens live in the EU than EU citizens live in the UK.

Food for thought.

You are being very selective. The most relevant data would be how the 1.5% compares to the European average. 3.7 million is a out of date figure. It was the best estimate when the EU settlement scheme opened. Its had 4 million applicants and that excludes Irish Citizens and EU immigrants who obtained ILR or British Citizenship prior to 2018. Its a stretch to think that having over three times as many EU immigrants as British emigrants is an indicator of a positive British attitude towards the EU.

How good are the Irish at languages?

What languages do French people speak?

The language proficient Swiss are not in the EU.

Ireland is marginally better at languages than the UK. Foreign languages in its education system (understandably) have to compete for time with the Irish language. France is miles better than us. A substantial proportion of the population can speak basic English and often another language. Switzerland has a European ethos and is pro European identity, its just not in the EU!

Anyone have an opinion on Northern Ireland protocol arrangements? RTE has excellent coverage.

 

[edwin_m]

Exactly. The remain campaign was anti brexit not pro EU. Had we placed importance in our education system on learning other european languages and had British emigration to the EU got even remotely close to the level of EU immigration then brexit would never have have happened.

Its interesting how little attention the deal yesterday on Northern Ireland has received in the media. Its not just that the UK ditched the breaches to the withdrawal treaty, the rules and procedures to manage the NI protocol have been agreed by the EU and the UK. The list of imported goods considered to be low, high and medium risk and the subsequent processes for them have also been agreed. Its a collosal step to resolving Northern Ireland as a brexit issue. Considering the weight put on Northern Ireland being a full part of the UK by brexiteers and the emphasis on the risk to the Good Friday Agreement by remainers (and "Irish" Americans), you would think finalising Northern Ireland's post brexit arrangements would be massive news.

It's somewhat overshadowed by the brinkmanship and showmanship on the trade agreement, which directly affects everyone in the rest of the UK. Most of whom have never cared much about NI anyway and might actually be quite glad if it joined the Republic.

Setting up on your also means creating your own rules, bar and course and be happier for it.

That's what I'm saying when you leave a club you don't like, I thought you guys could have understood that, instead you're going back to the usual remainer recriminations again.

I stand by my vote to Leave because I believed in it, I fully understood the consequences, leaving the custom union, single market, EHC, banking passporting rights, I am under no illusions and as we all know that the world has changed, it's more global and not everything is made in Europe compare to the 70s, most manufacturing has moved to the far East.

It's not a club we don't like, it's a club you don't like. And I for one don't want to be a member of a club run by the people who currently run the UK.

With the narrow majority in the referendum, if even a small fraction of the Leave voters had voted the other way then the result would have been to remain. It's reasonable to expect that some of them would have been keen on keeping all those things you claim you were happy to lose, and many prominent Leavers claimed we would keep. From autumn 2017 onwards, as the implications of leaving started to become clearer, almost every poll showed a narrow majority in favour of staying in. But the government stuck with the spurious "will of the people" argument and railroaded it through.

As an unapologetic Remainer I strongly resent the way this deal (or lack of) was wilfully mis-sold to the public by the Leave campaign, and indeed the way the Remain campaign seemed unwilling to make its own case. Instead of recognising the narrowness of the result and trying to compromise, the Leave side pushed further and further to the extreme, seemed to go out of its way to alienate those who disagreed, and gave Scotland and Northern Ireland some excellent arguments for leaving the UK. This included the ejection of the sensible and competent elements of the Tory party, who tended to see the folly of Brexit and tried to moderate if not to stop it entirely. So, combined with the hopelessness of the Corbyn alternative, we were saddled with the most useless government in living memory, led by the biggest liar to hold a poliltical post. Just as we were heading into the worst crisis since WW2, which has damaged Britain more than almost any other country.

 

[PHILIPE]

As an unapologetic Remainer I strongly resent the way this deal (or lack of) was wilfully mis-sold to the public by the Leave campaign, and indeed the way the Remain campaign seemed unwilling to make its own case. Instead of recognising the narrowness of the result and trying to compromise, the Leave side pushed further and further to the extreme, seemed to go out of its way to alienate those who disagreed, and gave Scotland and Northern Ireland some excellent arguments for leaving the UK. This included the ejection of the sensible and competent elements of the Tory party, who tended to see the folly of Brexit and tried to moderate if not to stop it entirely. So, combined with the hopelessness of the Corbyn alternative, we were saddled with the most useless government in living memory, led by the biggest liar to hold a poliltical post. Just as we were heading into the worst crisis since WW2, which has damaged Britain more than almost any other country.

Did you miss the "Project Fear" campaign ?

 

[radamfi]

Ireland is marginally better at languages than the UK. Foreign languages in its education system (understandably) have to compete for time with the Irish language. France is miles better than us. A substantial proportion of the population can speak basic English and often another language. Switzerland has a European ethos and is pro European identity, its just not in the EU!

The point is EU members converse with other EU members using English. English is the lingua franca of the EU. Knowledge of other languages is not essential. If it was so important, Irish people would be about as Eurosceptic as British people. The main difference between Britain and Ireland is the Irish haven't been fed a diet of Europhobia from their politicians and media.

Anyone have an opinion on Northern Ireland protocol arrangements? RTE has excellent coverage.

NI were sorted even before this as most of them enjoy Irish citizenship.

 

[alex397]

I don’t usually watch the news this time of night, but on BBC News just now they have said that the meeting in Brussels has not gone well. It’s looking clearer that we are probably heading towards no deal. How deeply concerning. (Although it’s still unclear, hopefully there can still be a deal).

People’s jobs, livelihoods, mental health and so on will be impacted on having a no deal. The economy is being impacted enough with of Covid and the lockdowns. 2 people in my family have already lost jobs, and other members of my family have quite ‘disposable’ jobs, myself included. I’m very worried, but I’m sure a hard brexiteer will tell me to stop being a snowflake.

Brexit: 'Large gaps' remain after trade talks with Ursula von der Leyen

Sunday becomes the new deadline for a decision on trade talks, after the PM and EU chief meet in Brussels.

www.bbc.co.uk

Boris Johnson's dinner with EU chief Ursula von der Leyen - aimed at breaking the Brexit trade deadlock - has ended without agreement.
Downing Street said "very large gaps remain" but talks will continue, with a "firm decision" by Sunday on whether a deal can be reached.
Mrs von der Leyen said the two sides were still "far apart".
Talks between the UK's chief negotiator Lord Frost and the EU's Michel Barnier will resume in Brussels later.
The two negotiators also attended the three-hour dinner meeting between the two leaders.
The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg said the evening had "plainly gone badly" and the chances of the UK leaving the post-Brexit transition period at the end of the year without a firm arrangement was a "big step closer".