Brexit matters

[RT4038]

Am I the only one who finds the comparison of the UK/EU relationship as being somehow equivalent to that which existed between Britain and Ireland disingenuous at best, bordering on insulting? I freely admit that I'm not 100% involved in the news cycle but I don't recall ever having seen an occupying EU army in the major cities of the UK, I'm not aware of people being jailed for expressing anti-EU opinion, nor have I heard of people being executed for acts of sedition against the EU.

I do not agree that it is disingenuous or insulting. There are parallels, even though the circumstances were not the same.. There haven't been illegal acts of terrorism (or freedom fighting, depending on your view) by Brexiteers either, taking history down that particular route.
However, the sentiment expressed by @21C101 is a valid one.

 

[Starmill]

Yes a lot of it won't be reversed any time soon, but it is no longer an option for them to act this way in future.

Except that Conservative MPs will do basically anything the Prime Minister tells them to since his purge. So you'll see no meaningful opposition to new "interfering" Regulations that are forthcoming. Indeed, there's been no meaningful opposition to utterly nonsense regulations such as the 10pm closing time or the substantial meals requirement.

 

[XAM2175]

On the point of "further integration" and "ever-closer union" it should be noted that in February 2016 the UK agreed a number of modifications to its membership in the EU that addressed concerns in those areas:

(from EUCO 1/16 Annex I, http://docs.dpaq.de/10395-0216-euco-conclusions.pdf)

DECISION OF THE HEADS OF STATE OR GOVERNMENT, MEETING WITHIN THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL, CONCERNING A NEW SETTLEMENT FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION
...
Recalling that the Treaties, together with references to the process of European integration and to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, contain also specific provisions whereby some Member States are entitled not to take part in or are exempted from the application of certain provisions or chapters of the Treaties and Union law as concerns matters such as the adoption of the euro, decisions having defence implications, the exercise of border controls on persons, as well as measures in the area of freedom, security and justice. Treaty provisions also allow for the non-participation of one or more Member States in actions intended to further the objectives of the Union, notably through the establishment of enhanced cooperations. Therefore, such processes make possible different paths of integration for different Member States, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, whilst respecting the rights of those which do not want to take such a course,
...
SECTION C - SOVEREIGNTY
1. It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.

The references in the Treaties and their preambles to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe do not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the Treaties or of EU secondary legislation. They should not be used either to support an extensive interpretation of the competences of the Union or of the powers of its institutions as set out in the Treaties.

These references do not alter the limits of Union competence governed by the principle of conferral, or the use of Union competence governed by the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. They do not require that further competences be conferred upon the European Union or that the European Union must exercise its existing competences, or that competences conferred on the Union could not be reduced and thereby returned to the Member States.
...

 

[Starmill]

I wish I had your sense of optimism that the Government and the relevant sections of the media won't happily still blame the EU for any woes we now encounter.

Indeed! It does make laugh how many columnists and pundits on the news are still railing against the awfulness of the EU on the basis that they're refusing to treat the UK fairly. Why should they care what the EU does? Shouldn't they be off enjoying their Brexit? Every non-member government in the world will view what the EU does as unfair - that's literally the point of a members' club. It's just that they have the diplomatic grace to know their place and work with it.

 

[Bungle158]

Nikolaus Blome on Brexit in today's Der Spiegel "Much of the British media,were complicit, constantly trampling on fairness and facts, leaving Britain captured by gambling liars, frivolous clowns and their paid cheerleaders. They have destroyed my Europe, to which the UK belonged as much as France or Germany.”

I found the above quote in a Guardian article which continues..."German historian Helene von Bismarck identified two key elements (in this process), an emotionalisation and over-simplification of highly complex issues, such as Brexit, the Covid pandemic or migration, and a reliance on bogeymen or enemies at home and abroad."

At least some of the comments in this thread appear to give credence to the above.

 

[edwin_m]

Nikolaus Blome on Brexit in today's Der Spiegel "Much of the British media,were complicit, constantly trampling on fairness and facts, leaving Britain captured by gambling liars, frivolous clowns and their paid cheerleaders. They have destroyed my Europe, to which the UK belonged as much as France or Germany.”

I found the above quote in a Guardian article which continues..."German historian Helene von Bismarck identified two key elements (in this process), an emotionalisation and over-simplification of highly complex issues, such as Brexit, the Covid pandemic or migration, and a reliance on bogeymen or enemies at home and abroad."

At least some of the comments in this thread appear to give credence to the above.

Ah, but going by their names neither of them is British so their opinions are worthless.

 

[InOban]

Going well OT but the UK is allowing Gibraltar to join Schengen!

 

[Bungle158]

"Ah, but going by their names neither of them is British so their opinions are worthless."

Either brilliant parody or an example of issues highlighted in my quotes. Either way, l rest my case. Happy New Year.

 

[nickswift99]

Going well OT but the UK is allowing Gibraltar to join Schengen!

Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory. So is Bermuda (sorry, really off topic now). Overseas territories are relatively free to do as they wish as they are not formally part of the United Kingdom.

Spain was very keen to agree to this as it gives them the ability to put customs/immigration officers in Gibraltar (at the airport) and helps towards their case to get Gibraltar back, not to mention the 15,000 Spanish who work in Gibraltar on a daily basis...

 

[Senex]

Nikolaus Blome on Brexit in today's Der Spiegel "Much of the British media,were complicit, constantly trampling on fairness and facts, leaving Britain captured by gambling liars, frivolous clowns and their paid cheerleaders. They have destroyed my Europe, to which the UK belonged as much as France or Germany.”

I found the above quote in a Guardian article which continues..."German historian Helene von Bismarck identified two key elements (in this process), an emotionalisation and over-simplification of highly complex issues, such as Brexit, the Covid pandemic or migration, and a reliance on bogeymen or enemies at home and abroad."

At least some of the comments in this thread appear to give credence to the above.

I must try and read that — it sounds spot on! It's certainly been interesting from time to time over these last few years to dip into the German newspapers and see how they've been commenting (and in general to admire much better journalism than has been to be found in the British press).

Interesting to see how all those who can seem to be setting up their little safety-nets now. We hear today that Gibraltar will be in Schengen ... and our Dear Leader's father is to apply for French citizenship on the grounds of having a French mother (and wasn't the Dear Leader himself born in New York and so gets some sort of privilege there?). Oh to have had an Irish grandfather instead of just an Irish great-grandfather!

 

[najaB]

"Ah, but going by their names neither of them is British so their opinions are worthless."

Either brilliant parody or an example of issues highlighted in my quotes. Either way, l rest my case. Happy New Year.

Based on @edwin_m's previous posts, I'm pretty sure it was an impression of an arch Brexit supporter.

Interesting to see how all those who can seem to be setting up their little safety-nets now.

I'm a little ashamed to admit that I'm currently not in the UK through the luxury of having dual citizenship. When No Deal was looking likely it seemed like a good time for an extended visit to my parents.

 

[XAM2175]

and wasn't the Dear Leader himself born in New York and so gets some sort of privilege there?

Amusingly he renounced his US citizenship in 2016 to escape their practice of taxing income earned abroad.

 

[Clip]

Whilst I live in a place that has voted leave even though they've had a lot of EU money that probably wouldn't have come from central government, I too voted to remain because I could see the benefits of borderless trade and I do like the free travel stuff.

However. We are leaving in a few hours and people need to be more pragmatic about this and realise that no matter how much you hate what's happened you are not going to change it and you should be looking to adjust what you and possibly your business should be doing. In fact they should've started that process 4 years ago and even more so after the last election.

It's happening. It's real life. And it doesn't matter how much you pontificate about the good and bad of leaving the EU it happens in 5 hours.

You should be prepared

 

[eoff]

It's happening. It's real life. And it doesn't matter how much you pontificate about the good and bad of leaving the EU it happens in 5 hours.

You should have written that last January.

 

[bspahh]

Nikolaus Blome on Brexit in today's Der Spiegel "Much of the British media,were complicit, constantly trampling on fairness and facts, leaving Britain captured by gambling liars, frivolous clowns and their paid cheerleaders. They have destroyed my Europe, to which the UK belonged as much as France or Germany.”

This is the full article

Der Brexit weckt in mir keine Wehmut, sondern Wut – Kolumne von Nikolaus Blome

Großbritannien ist raus aus der EU. Die Lügner und Dilettanten auf der Insel haben gewonnen. Sie sind eine ewige Schande für alle Konservativen.

www.spiegel.de

https://translate.google.com/ does a reasonable job at translating it.

 

[Clip]

You should have written that last January.

I did mention it to the wife

 

[Darandio]

You should be prepared

It's funny you say that really considering it was the messaging on a run of government backed TV adverts leading up to today. The ironic thing of course is that while they were busy telling us to be prepared, they actually still weren't.

 

[Clip]

It's funny you say that really considering it was the messaging on a run of government backed TV adverts leading up to today. The ironic thing of course is that while they were busy telling us to be prepared, they actually still weren't.

I don't really watch TV but have heard similar on the radio

Yeah they've had a while to be prepared and supposed to have an oven ready deal but like most things from this lots it's all been lies.

 

[backontrack]

OK, so what, exactly, are we to gain?

To keep with the analogy...

Crying, screaming, dirty nappies. A puffy, fleshy baby vomiting on our shoulder at 3am (if you're Carrie Symonds). Many sleepless nights.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

I voted remain and on the day of the referendum I was actually quite shocked by the result and it took a while to sink in. I had always been in favour of us staying in the EU so I found it difficult to accept at first but I have actually found the political theatre since then quite amusing and fascinating watching how it all plays out and what form of Brexit we actually end up with (EEA, Hard, No Deal etc.)

But as it was a democratic decision even though I was not in favour of Brexit I am now more accepting of the result now we have actually left and we have agreed a deal with the EU. I would really like to give it a chance and I would really like us to do well as a nation under the deal - I agree that it is a lot better than a no deal scenario as we have tariff free access to the EU. We also have as another positive that we have avoided a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (Eire) under the Withdrawal Agreement and we retain a comprehensive Common Travel Area within the UK and Ireland which maintains freedom of movement within our archipelago (but not to/from Mainland Europe) which I think it a good thing with our shared economic and cultural ties.

But I would probably be more accepting of Brexit if it was not for the hard Remainer types who seem to say that their are no positives to Brexit at all - just all negatives and I can sometimes feel brainwashed by what I read on line from them. It is almost like they want everything to be a disaster when we leave and everything to go wrong so it gives them a good case for re joining the EU rapidly. Also I am certainly no Tory or a fan of the Tories but is also seems that because some of these remainers don't like the Conservative government and want Brexit to be a disaster to help bring down the Tory Government.

As explained above I voted remain and at the time of the referendum I believed our best interests were served by staying within the EU. But I am a pragmatic person and I have now accepted the result and I am willing to give Brexit a chance on the current terms. I know that say a few years down the line if Brexit went very badly economically I may argue a case to rejoin or at least to rejoin the Customs Union/Single Market. But if we are doing just fine or well economically I would certainly not be bothered or loose sleep over it. But I am asking a question why are the hard Remainers so adamant that it is going to be a disaster? Because I know that their examples of very successful nations around the world with very successful economies which control their own trade policy - e.g. Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand being the main examples so if they can be economically successful for years with a similar trading status to which the UK will shortly have, why can't the UK as those countries seem to do just fine economically. I will probably be told that the EU is our largest trading partner due to its geographical proximity in response to this but then what about Canada which seems to operate fine with an immigration and customs border with a much larger economy on its doorstep - the USA - so if Brexit was so bad why haven't we heard calls for an open border between Canada and the USA with immigration and customs controls abolished along that border with a Customs Union and a Schengen-style passport free area? Maybe even a single currency? Canada to share the US$ LOL!

So taking into account what I have explained above do you think we will do rather well after Brexit as if those countries can do it why can't we?

 

[eoff]

So taking into account what I have explained above do you think we will do rather well after Brexit as if those countries can do it why can't we?

I for one am waiting a bit, it is possible that the Government have saved up a raft of plans and initiatives (and not just some populist measures) to demonstrate how great the new regime will be, January would be the time to unveil this.
It is of course true that other countries of similar size get on quite well, but would they have got on better if they had done a deal with a huge trading block next door? The USA, Canada and Mexico recently updated the North American Trade Agreement so they recognise the benefit of such cooperation (I have not looked into what scope this has).

 

[Dave1987]

I voted remain and on the day of the referendum I was actually quite shocked by the result and it took a while to sink in. I had always been in favour of us staying in the EU so I found it difficult to accept at first but I have actually found the political theatre since then quite amusing and fascinating watching how it all plays out and what form of Brexit we actually end up with (EEA, Hard, No Deal etc.)

But as it was a democratic decision even though I was not in favour of Brexit I am now more accepting of the result now we have actually left and we have agreed a deal with the EU. I would really like to give it a chance and I would really like us to do well as a nation under the deal - I agree that it is a lot better than a no deal scenario as we have tariff free access to the EU. We also have as another positive that we have avoided a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (Eire) under the Withdrawal Agreement and we retain a comprehensive Common Travel Area within the UK and Ireland which maintains freedom of movement within our archipelago (but not to/from Mainland Europe) which I think it a good thing with our shared economic and cultural ties.

But I would probably be more accepting of Brexit if it was not for the hard Remainer types who seem to say that their are no positives to Brexit at all - just all negatives and I can sometimes feel brainwashed by what I read on line from them. It is almost like they want everything to be a disaster when we leave and everything to go wrong so it gives them a good case for re joining the EU rapidly. Also I am certainly no Tory or a fan of the Tories but is also seems that because some of these remainers don't like the Conservative government and want Brexit to be a disaster to help bring down the Tory Government.

As explained above I voted remain and at the time of the referendum I believed our best interests were served by staying within the EU. But I am a pragmatic person and I have now accepted the result and I am willing to give Brexit a chance on the current terms. I know that say a few years down the line if Brexit went very badly economically I may argue a case to rejoin or at least to rejoin the Customs Union/Single Market. But if we are doing just fine or well economically I would certainly not be bothered or loose sleep over it. But I am asking a question why are the hard Remainers so adamant that it is going to be a disaster? Because I know that their examples of very successful nations around the world with very successful economies which control their own trade policy - e.g. Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand being the main examples so if they can be economically successful for years with a similar trading status to which the UK will shortly have, why can't the UK as those countries seem to do just fine economically. I will probably be told that the EU is our largest trading partner due to its geographical proximity in response to this but then what about Canada which seems to operate fine with an immigration and customs border with a much larger economy on its doorstep - the USA - so if Brexit was so bad why haven't we heard calls for an open border between Canada and the USA with immigration and customs controls abolished along that border with a Customs Union and a Schengen-style passport free area? Maybe even a single currency? Canada to share the US$ LOL!

So taking into account what I have explained above do you think we will do rather well after Brexit as if those countries can do it why can't we?

There are many remainers who feel even though they are British born and bred that they are foreigners in their own country. Gove admitted that he and his Brexit championing cohorts let the debate get toxic and nasty. I’ve heard people who have never met before turn their noses up at each other simply because one voted to leave and the other remain. These divisions run very deep now stoked up by the likes of Farage and the ERG. I know of many many remainers who will be quite happy to see the UK crash and burn now just to prove a point. I happen to believe lots of people won’t like Brexit when they come to realise the true consequences of it as many of their working rights were enshrined into EU law. They are sure to be for the chop in a “global more competitive UK”.

 

[edwin_m]

I voted remain and on the day of the referendum I was actually quite shocked by the result and it took a while to sink in. I had always been in favour of us staying in the EU so I found it difficult to accept at first but I have actually found the political theatre since then quite amusing and fascinating watching how it all plays out and what form of Brexit we actually end up with (EEA, Hard, No Deal etc.)

But as it was a democratic decision even though I was not in favour of Brexit I am now more accepting of the result now we have actually left and we have agreed a deal with the EU. I would really like to give it a chance and I would really like us to do well as a nation under the deal - I agree that it is a lot better than a no deal scenario as we have tariff free access to the EU. We also have as another positive that we have avoided a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (Eire) under the Withdrawal Agreement and we retain a comprehensive Common Travel Area within the UK and Ireland which maintains freedom of movement within our archipelago (but not to/from Mainland Europe) which I think it a good thing with our shared economic and cultural ties.

But I would probably be more accepting of Brexit if it was not for the hard Remainer types who seem to say that their are no positives to Brexit at all - just all negatives and I can sometimes feel brainwashed by what I read on line from them. It is almost like they want everything to be a disaster when we leave and everything to go wrong so it gives them a good case for re joining the EU rapidly. Also I am certainly no Tory or a fan of the Tories but is also seems that because some of these remainers don't like the Conservative government and want Brexit to be a disaster to help bring down the Tory Government.

As explained above I voted remain and at the time of the referendum I believed our best interests were served by staying within the EU. But I am a pragmatic person and I have now accepted the result and I am willing to give Brexit a chance on the current terms. I know that say a few years down the line if Brexit went very badly economically I may argue a case to rejoin or at least to rejoin the Customs Union/Single Market. But if we are doing just fine or well economically I would certainly not be bothered or loose sleep over it. But I am asking a question why are the hard Remainers so adamant that it is going to be a disaster? Because I know that their examples of very successful nations around the world with very successful economies which control their own trade policy - e.g. Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand being the main examples so if they can be economically successful for years with a similar trading status to which the UK will shortly have, why can't the UK as those countries seem to do just fine economically. I will probably be told that the EU is our largest trading partner due to its geographical proximity in response to this but then what about Canada which seems to operate fine with an immigration and customs border with a much larger economy on its doorstep - the USA - so if Brexit was so bad why haven't we heard calls for an open border between Canada and the USA with immigration and customs controls abolished along that border with a Customs Union and a Schengen-style passport free area? Maybe even a single currency? Canada to share the US$ LOL!

So taking into account what I have explained above do you think we will do rather well after Brexit as if those countries can do it why can't we?

While I'm not trying to reverse the decision I can not accept that it was democratic. To summarise reasons expressed by me and others already, the Leave option wasn't defined so campaigners could pretend it was a whole range of things, only one of which could come to pass. Plus the people on the Leave side blatantly lied during the campaign. Had a traditional British sense of fair play been applied to both those points, then it's unlikely there would have been a majority to leave (and from autumn 2017 onwards virtually every poll favoured remaining). At the very least there should have been a second referendum on the actual deal (which would have required setting out and agreeing the terms of that deal well before the due date). As far as I'm concerned it's not "forgive and forget" when the perpetrators have done the country down, for nothing more than a power grab, and now form the least competent government in living memory. They deserve to suffer the consequences.

I don't claim to understand the details of international trade, and unlike some Brexiters I'm not going to invent my own wild theories. I go by the opinion of the vast majority of people who understand such things (yes they are experts!), that Britain will suffer economically from relative isolation from the EU, and I haven't seen anyone present a credible case to the contrary. Brexiters claim an emotional attachment to sovereignty outweighs this, but to me their idea of what England should be is utterly abhorrent.

 

[najaB]

Brexiters claim an emotional attachment to sovereignty outweighs this, but to me their idea of what England should be is utterly abhorrent.

And largely it is about England.

 

[birchesgreen]

Well that is the past and well lost, we need to fight for and win the future.

 

[Journeyman]

Brexiters claim an emotional attachment to sovereignty outweighs this, but to me their idea of what England should be is utterly abhorrent.

Ain't that the truth? Well illustrated by this survey of what Leave voters want, published by The Independent on the day the Article 50 letter was sent.

Horrifying.

 

[ainsworth74]

Where do I go to find the sunlit uplands now that we've both exited the EU and the transition period?

 

[alex397]

Was watching the ‘victory speech’ from Mark Francois earlier today (I’d be interested to know why he mysteriously disappeared for so many months - I wonder where he went? Hmmm). Anyway, I find it rather offensive how he was using war-like language, such as calling it the ‘battle for Brexit’ and saying we should ‘lower our spears’. How insulting for those who have actually fought in real wars. Francois seems to live in some kind of war fantasy. I’m surprised he isn’t a member of UKIP rather than the Conservatives.
Same goes for Farage and all the rest talking about this like it is a war. They are not patriots, they are traitors.

 

[brad465]

Was watching the ‘victory speech’ from Mark Francois earlier today (I’d be interested to know why he mysteriously disappeared for so many months - I wonder where he went? Hmmm). Anyway, I find it rather offensive how he was using war-like language, such as calling it the ‘battle for Brexit’ and saying we should ‘lower our spears’. How insulting for those who have actually fought in real wars. Francois seems to live in some kind of war fantasy. I’m surprised he isn’t a member of UKIP rather than the Conservatives.
Same goes for Farage and all the rest talking about this like it is a war. They are not patriots, they are traitors.

The likes of all ERG members wouldn't get the power and money if they were in UKIP or any other right wing party not the Tories. If there's one member who definitely isn't patriotic it's Jacob Rees-Mogg, who has his investment firm in Dublin.

 

[Journeyman]

Where do I go to find the sunlit uplands now that we've both exited the EU and the transition period?

Ireland.