Bridge to Dartmouth

[Train Maniac]

Has anyone, at any point, considered building a bridge (pedestrian even) from Dartmouth South Embankment to Kingswear? Its not exactly a colossal distance and would almost certainly improve ease of access to the Dartmouth Steam Railway. Thoughts?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Brunel, in the era of "if we want to build it, we will" thought about it, hence the station on the Dartmouth side. But even then, it was deemed a poor idea. Similar idea today. Don't really think it's needed.

 

[Train Maniac]

Hm that's interesting. I've always wondered that if a bridge had been built, the Kingswear line may never have closed

 

[RT4038]

Hm that's interesting. I've always wondered that if a bridge had been built, the Kingswear line may never have closed

Rather a lot of railway lines were closed where the maintenance liability of bridges across the sea (Ilfracombe, Hayling, etc) was a factor, so possibly would not have had any effect?

 

[swt_passenger]

Has anyone, at any point, considered building a bridge (pedestrian even) from Dartmouth South Embankment to Kingswear? Its not exactly a colossal distance and would almost certainly improve ease of access to the Dartmouth Steam Railway. Thoughts?

What’s the height requirement going to be for small ships in the river?

 

[edwin_m]

I believe the previous proposal was to bring the railway across further upstream rather than to have a foot crossing between the Dartmouth and Kingswear stations. At one time Dartmouth hosted some fairly sizeable ships, so a crossing between the two stations would probably have had to be moveable (swing or lift).

 

[Train Maniac]

What’s the height requirement going to be for small ships in the river?

Im no sailor, but they seem to manage in places like Bideford

 

[Gloster]

I think that the Navy may have put their oar in and demanded a clear height that made the proposal ridiculously expensive, if not downright impossible. And in the Victorian era, if the Navy made such a demand, it was insisted on by all.

 

[30907]

I think that the Navy may have put their oar in and demanded a clear height that made the proposal ridiculously expensive, if not downright impossible. And in the Victorian era, if the Navy made such a demand, it was insisted on by all.

Think Royal Albert Bridge - Cornwall was a rather bigger market than Dartmouth!

 

[swt_passenger]

Im no sailor, but they seem to manage in places like Bideford

I thought the railway at Bideford was isolated from the rest of the network? But in any case, the way Dartmouth‘s harbour was used in the 19th century bears little resemblance to what you see today. Fairly major warships would have still been using the harbour 150 years ago.

 

[Gloster]

At Bideford the LSWR line and station was east the water, while the Bideford, Westward Ho & Appledore Railway was isolated on the west side of the Torridge. The only time anything crossed the bridge was when they were delivering the BWH&AR’s three locos and possibly when they were sold. There was no need for ships to go further up the Torridge and the Navy had no particular interest in it, so no problems with the low bridge.

 

[Dumpty]

There are some really big ships that come into that inlet at Dartmouth

 

[Gloster]

I think it was the height of the masts that concerned the Admiralty. I believe that this was also a major consideration at Saltash.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Has anyone, at any point, considered building a bridge (pedestrian even) from Dartmouth South Embankment to Kingswear? Its not exactly a colossal distance and would almost certainly improve ease of access to the Dartmouth Steam Railway. Thoughts?

A footbridge isn't necessarily feasible due to the Navy presence as people have said, but a foot tunnel perhaps would be possible (perhaps immersed tube on the river bed?)

 

[Gloster]

Is there really a massive desire for the good denizens of Dartmouth, Stoke Fleming and Bugford to flock to the steam railway? I would have thought that the main use would be for the inhabitants of Kingswear and visitors to head across to Dartmouth, but this could hardly justify the cost. There is an adequate ferry service or three across the estuary and that really should be enough.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is there really a massive desire for the good denizens of Dartmouth, Stoke Fleming and Bugford to flock to the steam railway? I would have thought that the main use would be for the inhabitants of Kingswear and visitors to head across to Dartmouth, but this could hardly justify the cost. There is an adequate ferry service or three across the estuary and that really should be enough.

I think it would allow you to simplify the ferry service - perhaps you could do it when the boats themselves were up for renewal?

 

[Train Maniac]

I'll admit, the reason i was asking was so that it could justify the hypothetical (purely in my own head) reopening of the Kingswear line to National Rail services
The rationale being, i seem to remember Beeching himself suggesting that the line wasnt a total basket case, if only for the connection at Kingswear

The fact that the Navy was against it back in the beginning, explains a lot

 

[MarkyT]

I believe the previous proposal was to bring the railway across further upstream rather than to have a foot crossing between the Dartmouth and Kingswear stations. At one time Dartmouth hosted some fairly sizeable ships, so a crossing between the two stations would probably have had to be moveable (swing or lift).

Dartmouth station would likely have been up on the hillside, maybe near the Naval College rather than conveniently located in the centre by the quays. Fairly large ships still visit occasionally, smaller cruise ships and sail training vessels with tall masts for example. A footbridge over would have to be at a high level to clear these which would require a considerable climb to reach it. The many larger yachts in the various marinas also have fairly tall masts and at times it's an incredibly busy waterway with all the private craft, sightseeing vessels, and ferries, in the high season especially, so I doubt a movable bridge could work. Large ships also require a deep draft which could be a problem for an immersed tube tunnel. What is more of a problem for both Dartmouth and Kingswear is the complete absence of public transport to and from either after about 7pm, even in the summer except for the annual regatta weekend when the steam railway has usually run a later train. At least the various ferries run until late evening.

 

[Pigeon]

I believe the previous proposal was to bring the railway across further upstream rather than to have a foot crossing between the Dartmouth and Kingswear stations. At one time Dartmouth hosted some fairly sizeable ships, so a crossing between the two stations would probably have had to be moveable (swing or lift).

Yes. There were such ideas, both to get to Dartmouth and to start a line heading further west from that point (which seems pretty daft to me, but it was a good time for daft ideas then). Problems included making the descent from the ridge of the peninsula to a suitable site for a bridge without too much of a gradient, getting hold of the land, finding a route down the west bank of the river, and not obstructing ships going up and down to Totnes (which like a lot of places at the inland end of the South Coast rias used to see what looks like an amazing amount of shipping given the state of the channel today).

 

[stuu]

The lower ferry takes no time at all, I find it hard to believe that the need to use the ferry played any role in the demise of the line as a part of BR. A bus, or indeed your own car, still has the same problem if you want to go to Paignton

 

[richw]

There was plans, it’s mentioned on the commentary on the Totnes river cruise.
I can’t remember the exact spiel, but it was heavily objected by the locals and the admiralty from memory from the commentary

 

[Pacco]

Having been to Dartmouth Naval College more than once I know the navy do bring frigates in, so absolutely no chance of any bridge as long as they are present.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The early plans for a railway to Dartmouth involved a high-level bridge up river at Dittisham, and a lower level bridge over the Mill Creek (near the future site of the Naval College) to reach the town. There were vociferous objections, but economic reality was the main reason for plumping for the cheaper Kingswear route. The 'station' at Dartmouth was built as a maritime asset, not in anticipation of the future arrival of the railway.

I favour 'nationalising' the Dartmouth Steam Railway - is that what it is called this month? - and making it part of the Devon Metro like Okehampton.
The traffic congestion in the Torbay area is appalling all year round, making bus services very slow.

 

[dk1]

Cost would be astronomical with all the height and shipping restrictions imposed and really no need for it. Best to leave it to the quirky interesting way Dartmouth is reached now. It’s what makes it so popular.

 

[MarkyT]

The traffic congestion in the Torbay area is appalling all year round, making bus services very slow.

And non existent in Dartmouth and Kingswear after about 7pm.