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Brighton-Southampton routing dispute.

londonbridge

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I held the return portion of a Brighton-Southampton Central super offpeak return routed not via London. I had been down to Mums for the weekend last month, travelling East Croydon-Clapham-Eastleigh. The return half was valid till April 24th so I still had an unused portion between Croydon and Brighton.

Decided to use the remaining validity as a single to Brighton to do one of the local parkruns and buy a single back home, so I planned to catch this mornings 07:34 Southern to Littlehampton and visit Preston Park. The ticket wouldn’t work the barrier so I showed it to the gateline attendant, explained the validity, said I was resuming travel after breaking my journey, and asked to be let through. He said he wasn’t sure and told me to check at the ticket office, where I explained everything again and then spent ten minutes arguing at the window as the staff member refused to accept my explanation. First he argued that the ticket was only valid on the coastal route, so I asked him to check the routing guide. He refused to do so, insisting that the ticket wasn’t valid. I asked him to check again and again he refused, so I asked for a manager, whereupon he replied with “I’m done with this conversation”. I repeated my request for a manager four times before he backed down and called someone over. The second staff member scanned the ticket, then said I could tell the gateline attendant it was valid.

By this time it had been announced that the train had been delayed due to this mornings landslip at Burgess Hill. It was subsequently announced that Littlehampton trains were diverting via Horsham, so I jumped on the 07:49 Brighton Thameslink train and got as far as Haywards Heath where we sat for twenty minutes before I bailed out and went to Clair parkrun instead, since by that point I would have missed the run start if I’d continued to Preston Park.

Obviously I don’t expect staff to have a mental encyclopaedic knowledge of the routing guide but is there any point in complaining to Southern as I’ll probably just receive a bog standard reply and nothing will change. It was his attitude and refusal to listen to my argument that was most irritating. Also the fact I now know the ticket won’t work the barrier leaves the prospect of similar arguments if I do the same on my next visit to Mums later in the year.

Having done the run at Clair I returned to Haywards Heath station where I saved money on the cost of a single to Croydon by buying a single to Gatwick and then using contactless back to Croydon.

As an aside, and tongue in cheek, did I actually need to buy the single or could I have travelled home on my original ticket and then claimed a refund on the Croydon-Brighton portion on the basis of abandoning my journey due to disruption? Using the argument that my intention was to travel to Preston Park and I only got as far as Haywards Heath before returning to my origin.
 
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JonathanH

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Is this one of those cases where drawing too much attention to the validity could cause that to change, therefore it would be better to put it down to experience?
 

30907

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The ticket concerned is clearly NOT the VIA BARNHAM one, so it is clearly valid via CLJ and ECR, and could not be further restricted. As it is priced by SW it might be worth copying the complaint to them?

EDIT: there is a time restriction, see post #7.
 
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londonbridge

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Point noted. I first came across this ticket on these forums over ten years ago when I was asking for advice on splits and/or reducing the cost of my trip, and have used it ever since, as it generally comes up cheaper than buying a Croydon Eastleigh return. I’ve never really had any problems using it, with no comments if I've been checked on board. When it was paper tickets it wouldn’t work the barrier at Croydon on my return, but flashing it at the gateline staff and saying “break of journey” was usually enough for them to open the gate without really looking at it, think I had it queried twice. When I switched to getting it as an e-ticket I found it opens the gates on my entry to, and exit from, Croydon with no issues. Having used it to exit from Croydon two weeks ago, this was my first time at attempting to use the remaining validity so I didn’t know beforehand whether or not it would open the gate in order to re-enter after an effective break of journey.
 

OneOfThe48

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The ticket concerned is clearly NOT the VIA BARNHAM one, so it is clearly valid via CLJ and ECR, and could not be further restricted. As it is priced by SW it might be worth copying the complaint to them?
Not questioning, but what would a ‘not via London’ ticket mean for route restrictions if it was valid via Clapham Junction? Don’t think anyone would pass through Clapham to Waterloo then get two tubes/a bus to Victoria and then get the train back through Clapham down the BML
 

30907

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Not questioning, but what would a ‘not via London’ ticket mean for route restrictions if it was valid via Clapham Junction? Don’t think anyone would pass through Clapham to Waterloo then get two tubes/a bus to Victoria and then get the train back through Clapham down the BML
You might, if your SW train didn't stop there! Or go via Waterloo E and London Br, or via Reading and Paddington....
 

Timetraveller

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A super off peak ticket Brighton to Southampton not via London carries a restriction code BD for Monday to Saturdays. Not valid to arrive Brighton between 0430 and 1447 on any toc. It can be used anytime only on Sundays. An excess to change it to an off peak return or a new single ticket would be needed to travel on a Saturday depending on whatever is the cheapest.
 

island

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I planned to catch this mornings 07:34 Southern to Littlehampton and visit Preston Park. The ticket wouldn’t work the barrier
What station were you attempting to travel from? It isn’t clear from your post.
 

30907

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A super off peak ticket Brighton to Southampton not via London carries a restriction code BD for Monday to Saturdays. Not valid to arrive Brighton between 0430 and 1447 on any toc. It can be used anytime only on Sundays. An excess to change it to an off peak return or a new single ticket would be needed to travel on a Saturday depending on whatever is the cheapest.
A good spot - obviously the OP as well as I missed this. The published restriction is "not to arrive (various London Terminals) before 1400" which therefore affects onward travel including starting short.
So the ticket wasn't valid, but not for the reasons given.
 

Haywain

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The published restriction is "not to arrive (various London Terminals) before 1400" which therefore affects onward travel including starting short.
Actually, that's not relevant - the ticket allows break of journey and the OP was not "on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01". However, the ticket was not valid due to another part of the restriction which states that it is "Additionally, not valid if boarding at the following stations: ... Any station in London Zones 1-6: after 04:29 and before 12:01". Anything else about times that you can arrive at various stations is in the unpublished restrictions and therefore of no relevance as they are there to tell journey planners what results they can give out - the fact that we can see them in BRFares is a happy coincidence, but not something that a ticket holder has to be aware of.
 

30907

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Actually, that's not relevant - the ticket allows break of journey and the OP was not "on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01". However, the ticket was not valid due to another part of the restriction which states that it is "Additionally, not valid if boarding at the following stations: ... Any station in London Zones 1-6: after 04:29 and before 12:01".
Missed that!
Anything else about times that you can arrive at various stations is in the unpublished restrictions and therefore of no relevance as they are there to tell journey planners what results they can give out - the fact that we can see them in BRFares is a happy coincidence, but not something that a ticket holder has to be aware of.
But the general condition after BoJ is that the original restriction has to be complied with, which has (much?) the same effect.

Anyway, clearly the OP needed the Offpeak not the Super OP.
 

londonbridge

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Ok, just to clarify matters:

1. The ticket was a super off peak return Brighton to Southampton Central not via London, held as an e-ticket.

2. Using the outward portion, on Friday March 22nd I boarded at East Croydon, travelled to Clapham Junction and then onto Eastleigh. Looking at the BD restrictions I complied with the time restrictions.

3. Using the return portion, two days later (Sunday 24th), I boarded at Southampton Airport Parkway, travelled to Clapham Junction and then on to East Croydon where I left the train. The ticket opened the barrier when I scanned out.

4. The ticket is valid for break of journey. The return portion is/was valid until April 21st. By leaving the train at Croydon the return portion was still unused between Croydon and Brighton.

5. Yesterday I attempted to use the remaining validity to travel from East Croydon to Preston Park, using the 07:34 Southern service to Littlehampton via Hove. The ticket would not open the barrier when I tried to scan in, leading to my discussion with staff. I was then allowed through the barrier.

6. The Littlehampton train was diverted via Horsham, so I boarded the 07:49 Thsmeslink to Brighton. The train was held at Haywards Heath, where, with time being of the essence, I left the train.

7. Having read the BD restrictions in full, I see now that the ticket was, in fact, not valid for my intended journey yesterday.

Hope that clears everything up.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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@Timetraveller I cannot see any reference to Brighton in the BD restrictions?
The info does seem to be there, albeit buried away in the fine detail...


Extracts...
Restriction Code: BD

Restricted Days:


Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday
Return Journey
Summary: Restrictions apply - please enquire

Not valid to arrive BRIGHTON 0430–1447 on any TOC

Conclusion. The cheapest tickets don't always allow for the most flexible journey itineraries, even at weekends.
 

Timetraveller

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Ok, just to clarify matters:

1. The ticket was a super off peak return Brighton to Southampton Central not via London, held as an e-ticket.

2. Using the outward portion, on Friday March 22nd I boarded at East Croydon, travelled to Clapham Junction and then onto Eastleigh. Looking at the BD restrictions I complied with the time restrictions.

3. Using the return portion, two days later (Sunday 24th), I boarded at Southampton Airport Parkway, travelled to Clapham Junction and then on to East Croydon where I left the train. The ticket opened the barrier when I scanned out.

4. The ticket is valid for break of journey. The return portion is/was valid until April 21st. By leaving the train at Croydon the return portion was still unused between Croydon and Brighton.

5. Yesterday I attempted to use the remaining validity to travel from East Croydon to Preston Park, using the 07:34 Southern service to Littlehampton via Hove. The ticket would not open the barrier when I tried to scan in, leading to my discussion with staff. I was then allowed through the barrier.

6. The Littlehampton train was diverted via Horsham, so I boarded the 07:49 Thsmeslink to Brighton. The train was held at Haywards Heath, where, with time being of the essence, I left the train.

7. Having read the BD restrictions in full, I see now that the ticket was, in fact, not valid for my intended journey yesterday.

Hope that clears everything up.
E-tickets have an issue if you break your journey. The readers won't allow you to recommence it. The routing is fine. The ticket paper or eticket being super off peak has restrictions on it where ever you return or restart your journey to the originating station. Therefore it wasn't valid for time of travel. The member of staff could have been more professional and I can understand your frustration as there are so many tickets out there with different routing and time restrictions. Fare is priced by SWR nominally within network area tends to be restart or return after 12pm Monday to Saturday but has restrictions aligned to SWR services from Waterloo with Vauxhall and Clapham Junction as well. Customers were purchasing this ticket previously off peak returns and finishing short at Clapham Junction as a cheaper alternative.
 

Haywain

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But the general condition after BoJ is that the original restriction has to be complied with, which has (much?) the same effect.
Yes, but as a train towards London was not involved that part of the restriction could not have any effect.

E-tickets have an issue if you break your journey. The readers won't allow you to recommence it.
That is simply not true.
 

30907

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Yes, but as a train towards London was not involved that part of the restriction could not have any effect.
Does one not have to travel on the basis of so as not to arrive London before 1400 (and therefore not CLJ before 1350 etc etc)?
Just a general query as I may have misunderstood the resuming a journey rule - the Zone 1-6 restriction covers it anyway.
 

Haywain

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Does one not have to travel on the basis of so as not to arrive London before 1400 (and therefore not CLJ before 1350 etc etc)?
No, you have to abide by the restriction. There is nothing to say that if you have broken your journey you have to recalculate the who journey as if you were starting again from the origin rather than the point where the journey was broken.
 

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