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Bring back british rail!

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Old Timer

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Adrian Vaughan's signalman books chart that well, though there was always money for chauffeur-driven senior managers to poke their noses in to what railway professionals were trying to do with scant resources.
I would treat that gentleman's writings with great caution. They are not representative of the times and he himself is a dinosaur who was completely against track circuit block and any form of investment in new equipment and practices. Had his opinion held sway we would still be running on jointed track under absolute block signalling. His writings could almost come from the RMT website to be frank.

I am afraid that as a Signalman he would have been unable to see anything other than what was happening in his own limited area, or gleaned from sources with similar views to his own, and it is a shame that he lets his personal beliefs overshadow what could have been some interesting books.

His comment about senior manager's running around in chauffer driven cars is perhaps the biggest example of where he was completely removed from the actualite as the only person who had a chauffer-driven car was the Chairman. Other senior managers travelled by train but then of course I would not expect mr Vaughan to know that insulated in his signalbox.
 
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Tiny Tim

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As previous posters have said: It's impossible to know how our railways would look today under British Rail. However, it's difficult to deny that the privatisation process was a hasty, botched affair that has needed constant revision ever since. Making comparisons worldwide between state and privately operated systems isn't helpful, the circumstances vary too much to allow a sensible conclusion. British Rail wasn't without it's faults, but didn't deserve the sudden execution it got. Re-nationalisation (if that's a word) has already effectively happened with Network Rail taking over the former Railtrack mantle. If the political will existed our railways could be taken back into government control on a piecemeal basis, but this really isn't very likely. I fear that those campaigning to 'Bring Back British Rail' are suffering from misplaced nostalgia and a lack of reality.
 

150222

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As previous posters have said: It's impossible to know how our railways would look today under British Rail. However, it's difficult to deny that the privatisation process was a hasty, botched affair that has needed constant revision ever since. Making comparisons worldwide between state and privately operated systems isn't helpful, the circumstances vary too much to allow a sensible conclusion. British Rail wasn't without it's faults, but didn't deserve the sudden execution it got. Re-nationalisation (if that's a word) has already effectively happened with Network Rail taking over the former Railtrack mantle. If the political will existed our railways could be taken back into government control on a piecemeal basis, but this really isn't very likely. I fear that those campaigning to 'Bring Back British Rail' are suffering from misplaced nostalgia and a lack of reality.
You make a good point and while I'm not campaigning to bring them back I do think it's a better system.
 

neilmc

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Under British Rail, at least when I was young, if you wanted to catch a train you went to the station and bought a ticket and you were reasonably sure what it was going to cost. You didn't have to book weeks in advance to get a bargain that you may lose if your plans change, you didn't have to consult websites for hours to come up with split ticketing options. If you were going from London to Durham and your wife offered to pick you up at Darlington instead you weren't surcharged £100+ for making a shorter journey. You didn't have "peak periods" that ran until seven P.M. to try to force people into buying Anytime fares if they wanted to get home before bedtime. When they replaced steam with diesel or expanded electrification they didn't say that your ticket cost had to go up by above the rate of inflation to pay for what should have been normal replacement of assets.

If you're a regular forum user you probably feel quite smug that you can play the current mess of a system and do well out of it at the expense of the ordinary person who isn't a rail fare nerd, especially older people and occasional travellers who'd find the whole thing totally baffling.
 

Tiny Tim

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The present Byzantine fare system certainly doesn't favour the regular rail user, confined to peak services. The biggest beneficiaries are the occasional leisure users like myself. Booking cheap tickets online is a piece of cake, as long as you aren't fussy about travelling at particular times. BR did operate cheap fares, I remember (I think) they were called 'Merry-go-round' tickets that got me from Pewsey to London and back for £2.50.
 
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Zoe

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Under British Rail, at least when I was young, if you wanted to catch a train you went to the station and bought a ticket and you were reasonably sure what it was going to cost. You didn't have to book weeks in advance to get a bargain that you may lose if your plans change, you didn't have to consult websites for hours to come up with split ticketing options.
I agree with that but it would seem not many people would give up the rock bottom advance fares in return for cheaper walk-up fares. The response has been quite negative when I've suggested it. When I have said that the walk-up fares are too expensive I've just been told I should book in advance.
 

neilmc

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I remember a "Big City Saver" return from Leeds to London in BR days being sold for less than the price of a single, in those days that was quite a novelty (I think they were worried about deregulated long-distance coaches). I did ask at the Leeds booking office about buying one and not using the return half and was told that would be considered very selfish!
 

Zoe

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As a result of the increase in walk-up fares in recent years I rarely go on intercity journeys these days. I don't use any other form of transport, I simply don't travel at all. Ten years ago if I didn't have much to do I would take the train to London and back. The railway may well have lost a few journeys like this but I often see full trains so either people are happy to pay more or they don't mind booking in advance. Either way I don't see a return to the old system. The argument is that an intercity journey is like travel on an airline and so you should expect to have to book in advance.
 

WatcherZero

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Sadly the price we pay for an industry using airline demand pricing, ultimatley the peak walk up fares being so high are to stop people using them when they dont have to and compensated by lower cost season tickets for those who make the journey every day.
 

HH

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I've never seen anyone complain about the way airlines price tickets, which is essentially the same (because it works!) so I can only conclude that there are a number of people who will complain about anything that is different to how it was 20 years ago, on principle.
 

WestCoast

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I've never seen anyone complain about the way airlines price tickets, which is essentially the same (because it works!) so I can only conclude that there are a number of people who will complain about anything that is different to how it was 20 years ago, on principle.

I'd say that's missing the point slightly. Aside from the fact I know plenty of complaints about airline ticketing from another forum quite like this one, it is often said that Britain has the most expensive and the cheapest fares in Europe (when talking about longer distance travel).

Alongside (almost) £300 Anytime Returns on London - Manchester, you've got £11.50 Advance singles. It's certainly a way to undertake capacity management, but could the gap be closed a little?

Certainly if we look at the fare structure in certain other European countries, the walk-up fares are more modest but the advance fares are also slightly higher than the low levels seen in the UK. It's a compromise. By having such high walk on fares, the "turn-up-and-go" style of service is affected since people have to book on certain trains to secure a decent fare in some cases.

It's definitely one argument, I am not necessarily supporting it, but it's an observation many seem to make.
 
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Zoe

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I've never seen anyone complain about the way airlines price tickets, which is essentially the same (because it works!) so I can only conclude that there are a number of people who will complain about anything that is different to how it was 20 years ago, on principle.
The difference is that it has always been that way for airlines. With rail it's not that long ago when you could just go to the station and get a ticket for the next train without paying through the roof. Expensive walk-up fares do not encourage travel by rail for people that want flexibility.
 

jon0844

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The present Byzantine fare system certainly doesn't favour the regular rail user, confined to peak services. The biggest beneficiaries are the occasional leisure users like myself. Booking cheap tickets online is a piece of cake, as long as you aren't fussy about travelling at particular times. BR did operate cheap fares, I remember (I think) they were called 'Merry-go-round' tickets that got me from Pewsey to London and back for £2.50.

What about apex and super apex? It was also somewhat harder to get information then, as well as live running info. Not that this wouldn't have happened whether privatised or not.

When people talk of all the top quality, highly skilled, people that BR employed before, do we not think that if BR remained today, most skilled people would leave to work elsewhere to enjoy private sector pay, quite probably abroad?

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Whistler40145

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How about a Single Fare actually being half the Return Fare as most European countries have.


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Zoe

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How about a Single Fare actually being half the Return Fare as most European countries have.
In the case of advance fares there are no returns these days so a single journey is half the price of a return. If it was decided that singles should be half the price of returns though for all tickets this could result it more expensive Off Peak returns so there would not be a loss in revenue.
 
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Whistler40145

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How are fares decided?

Is it by distance?

I think TOCs should provide more on the day fares for stations within specific distances, just like the London Travelcard Zones.


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Tiny Tim

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British Rail certainly employed a large number of highly skilled personnel, but these skills were often quite specific to the railways and not necessarily transferrable to other sectors of industry. In any case the so-called 'brain drain' is something of a myth, most people take work abroad on a short-term basis, particularly when times are hard at home. Most of BR's staff still work on the railways, and would be doing so whoever ran them. I work for a well-known railway signalling company which has undergone enormous changes over the last 20 years, but many of the staff have remained with the company throughout this period, despite opportunities elsewhere. Often people prefer the devil they know.
 

Old Timer

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..... In any case the so-called 'brain drain' is something of a myth, most people take work abroad on a short-term basis, particularly when times are hard at home. Most of BR's staff still work on the railways, and would be doing so whoever ran them. ...
That may well be the case in your personal experience with your Company, but that is not the case elsewhere.

For example one of the first things that Network Rail did soon after formation was to re-organise in such a manner as to force many experienced IMU managers out of the Industry through what many believe were illegal practices and indeed a number of cases are currently going through the ET process on this basis. A great many expereinced staff left the Industry through this. A number of senior staff also left under Compromise Agreements.

There were very many re-organisations which were designed to remove long term BR/major Contractors TUPE staff either by voluntary redundancy or by rather more subtle but negative courses of action.

Cutbacks and deliberate delays in Projects and renewals, and forced renogotiation of existing Contracts have resulted in all the major Contractors downsizing their organisations through complulsory redundancy. Balfour Beatty Rail for example made a hoarde of staff redundant at Christmas 2009, and then Jarvis was destroyed through the medium of delaying payment for work undertaken.

With very few jobs here, staff have either left the Industry or have moved abroad, an awful lot having gone to Australia, where they were welcomed with open arms amnd disbelief that the UK Industry could be so shortsighted.

Network Rail have also long followed unspoken practice of not employing experienced former BR/IMU/IRU staff, preferring instead to recruit in from any Industry other than the Railways. They also embarked in 2002 on a process of taking anyone with any form of Degree and then sending them on a "conversion" course which seemingly prepared Sociology and Arts graduates to become skilled Railway engineers overnight. The route to the job was through a brainwashing centre where they were taught to treat the major Contractors akin to something unpleasant that they had trodden on, and to operate in a belligerent and aggreesive contractual manner. These people were then employed in preference to experienced staff. The latest variation on this has been to produce this graduate training programme which puts the Network Rail spin on everything, but as many have found to their cost does not guarantee a position at the end, and does not equip the holder with the ability to work abroad when they have no work.

Foreign administrations do not employ ex Network Rail people because they lack hands on experience, and more importantly Railways Overseas work in co-operation and partnership with, not against, their Contractors and co-operative behaviours are seen as vital unlike in the UK.


If you worked with the Projects division (whatever this month's title for them is) you would know that pretty much all of their people have no Railway experience whatsoever. It is this, together with the micro-management of the Contractors (in contravention of the CDM Regulations), very poorly written (almost illiterate at times) Tender and Contractual documentation, and the aggressive and beligerent manner of working with the major Contractors that has caused costs to soar. Principally through the creation of a massive and needless Projects division which is now so large it needs its own adminsitration as well as now producing its own variation of Network Rail Company Standards, which in most cases simply repeat what is in the main Standard, which in turn simply parrotts the Law.

It is no "myth" that Balfour Beatty Rail OHL staff are now working abroad in Australia and New Zealand (and will not be coming back), neither is it a "myth" that practically all of the Jarvis team which delivered the WCRM works are now working outside the UK, including the only team with experience in installing very high speed turnouts.

Again I am surprised that coming from a signalling company you hold such views especially when most signalling companies have struggled to keep their operations in the UK and many have been reliant upon Overseas work. It appears only to be the need to complete over-running and cocked up signalling Projects that has kept anything near a skilled core of key staff in the UK.

The Industry is about to suffer from the double-whammy of reduced numbers of staff at a time when there is going to be a rising demand, together with a much increased demad from Overseas where the Ts&Cs and working life is far better. Currently OHL and Track Design staff can basically name their price, and the demand for experienced construction staff continues to grow.

Had Network Rail not tried to break the major Infrastructure Contractors then they would have a skills base to fall back upon, especially in OHL, rather than now finding the need to employ poorly skilled Eastern Europeans who struggle with the language problem but who are starting to understand that it is now a case that they can basically ask for far more than they are worth - and NR will have no option but to pay it.
 

Tiny Tim

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I don't deny that staff formerly employed by BR haven't gone abroad, although the scale of this is often exaggerated by the media. I seem to remember (several posts back now) that the point being made was that this would have happened under BR, which I think we agree, is not the case. The whole fractured system we have presently is a shambles, caused entirely by privatisation. British Rail didn't need to be destroyed, private investment can be brought into an otherwise nationalised industry.
 

Greenback

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I agree with that but it would seem not many people would give up the rock bottom advance fares in return for cheaper walk-up fares. The response has been quite negative when I've suggested it. When I have said that the walk-up fares are too expensive I've just been told I should book in advance.

I support this, though Zoe is correct that we ar ein the minority on this forum! However, forum member may not be representative of the wider travelling public...

Sadly the price we pay for an industry using airline demand pricing, ultimatley the peak walk up fares being so high are to stop people using them when they dont have to and compensated by lower cost season tickets for those who make the journey every day.

Indeed, I can't see much I disagree with there!

I've never seen anyone complain about the way airlines price tickets, which is essentially the same (because it works!) so I can only conclude that there are a number of people who will complain about anything that is different to how it was 20 years ago, on principle.

Plenty of people complain about airline pricing, sometimes the same things that rail passengers complain about like the difficulty in finding the cheap fares that are advertised ,but mostly about the hidden extras and add ons that puch the price up when you actually make a booking with the so called low cost airlines.

The difference is that it has always been that way for airlines. With rail it's not that long ago when you could just go to the station and get a ticket for the next train without paying through the roof. Expensive walk-up fares do not encourage travel by rail for people that want flexibility.

I agree. The system is fiocused on revenue generation rather than social mobility. There are arguments in favour of each extreme, I prefer those in favour of social mobility, but sadly the governments of the last twenty years do not same to have shared my views!

What about apex and super apex? It was also somewhat harder to get information then, as well as live running info. Not that this wouldn't have happened whether privatised or not.

Much of the improvement sin this area, are, of course, down to the advances in technology since privatisation. Not that there isn't room for furthe rimprovement!

When people talk of all the top quality, highly skilled, people that BR employed before, do we not think that if BR remained today, most skilled people would leave to work elsewhere to enjoy private sector pay, quite probably abroad?

I think that is a difficult question to answer. On the whole, Br staff were dedicated to 'the railway' and as Old timer has highlighted, many staff at all levels could have earned more money outside the industry.

I'm not sure that such loyalty, dedication or sense of belonging exists to the same extent in any workplace these days, so it is arguable whether in today's times skilled staff may have stayed with an organisation such as BR. My instinct, though, is that there would be mroe difficulty in retaining employees in the 21st century.
 

Old Timer

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I don't deny that staff formerly employed by BR haven't gone abroad, although the scale of this is often exaggerated by the media. I seem to remember (several posts back now) that the point being made was that this would have happened under BR, which I think we agree, is not the case. The whole fractured system we have presently is a shambles, caused entirely by privatisation. British Rail didn't need to be destroyed, private investment can be brought into an otherwise nationalised industry.
On that I think we can definitely agree.

My own view however is that BR has gone, as have both the staff and the culture that we had. This culture certainly does not fit into the Network Rail model or culture.

The result is that many of our best and most experienced Infrastructure staff are now no longer in the UK and those who have left are not interested in returning to the current regime. I could see a massive loss of Corporate memory and experience when I worked with Network Rail, and I can only imagine the scale of this will increase because of the anti-experience bias that is now seen.
 

markskoda

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Czech Railways do a pretty good job under state control.
Frequent clean and apparently safe service with transparent ticketing based on
1.25 Czech Crowns per travelled kilometre. (A little over 4pence) The only surcharge would be for First class or Pendelino supplement. There are lots of travel discounts based on railcards. Walk up fares same as pre-booked.
 

HH

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Plenty of people complain about airline pricing, sometimes the same things that rail passengers complain about like the difficulty in finding the cheap fares that are advertised ,but mostly about the hidden extras and add ons that puch the price up when you actually make a booking with the so called low cost airlines.

Yes, but none of these nefarious practices have been repeated on the railway, so what is there to complain about?

The idea is to move as many people as possible off the busiest services so that people who have to use, or are prepared to pay to use, those busy services still get a seat. Even if it didn't increase revenue it would be a good idea simply for managing demand.

I recall suggesting a similar idea on commuter trains, but DfT would have had to allow more fare flexibility, and they wouldn't.
 
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