Britain's Fare System - Why's It So Complex?

[MidnightFlyer]

Messing about with the ticket vending machine thingy on Welwyn North yesterday, i wondered, after they standardised tickets to Advance, off-Peak, Anytime and Season, why its still so complex. What's a Super-Off-Peak? Why can't we just have one straightforward fare say Preston-London, extra for peak, cheaper if in advance, and higher if First Class. is this not easier? And after all this, we get individual TOCs with Carnet or 10 for the price of 9 tickets, which aren't valid on blah, blah, blah and come with 15 pages of T and C's. Why? Thanks for reading - end of rant

 

[W-on-Sea]

Simplification my foot!

As for "super off-peaks", well, here in c2cland they used to be known (far more comprehensibly and accurately) as "weekend tickets" - cheaper fares valid on any train on Sat or Sun. I've come across them elsewhere (around Hereford & Worcester) as cheap evening tickets, and I daresay there are countless other permutations.

One particularly annoying thing (apart from the excessive variety of ticket types) is that the restrictions pertaining to different tickets are not clearly explained (least of all on the ticket machines!); and indeed, I don't think there is any practical way for them to be so in many cases.

We need a real, not a cosmetic simplification of fares. The last one if anything confused matters by giving entirely different types of tickets with different conditions and restrictions the same name, while their previous conditions and restrictions remained unchanged.

 

[RJ]

We could just have a single flat rate fare for any one journey, which would result in millions of people being ripped off, TOCs losing money because of no extra bums on seats during periods of low demand. With such a great loss of revenue, what state would the railways be in? Less services, less investment for starters.

Easier, yes. Better? You decide.

 

[nedchester]

We could just have a single flat rate fare for any one journey, which would result in millions of people being ripped off, TOCs losing money because of no extra bums on seats during periods of low demand. With such a great loss of revenue, what state would the railways be in? Less services, less investment for starters.

Easier, yes. Better? You decide.

So you're saying that the fares system is fine as it stands? If so the men in the white coats are just around the corner........

 

[yorkie]

As for "super off-peaks", well, here in c2cland they used to be known (far more comprehensibly and accurately) as "weekend tickets" - cheaper fares valid on any train on Sat or Sun. I've come across them elsewhere (around Hereford & Worcester) as cheap evening tickets, and I daresay there are countless other permutations.

Super Off Peak can mean literally anything, for example evening only, restricted times, weekends only, etc.

ATOC claim that Super Off Peak is more restrictive than Off Peak, yet Super Off Peak (outward & return portions) are valid on the 1900 from King's Cross while Off Peak Day return portions are not. ATOC's claim is, therefore, misleading and inaccurate, but that's only to be expected.

Guide to simple fares

 

[RJ]

So you're saying that the fares system is fine as it stands? If so the men in the white coats are just around the corner........

I never said it was. I think the complexity of the ticketing system is down the basic principle of economics - supply and demand. Privatisation inevitably adds to system's state of convolution - once different TOCs start pricing their own flows, introducing promotions (to boost demand and fill empty seats), running over the same routes etc. it becomes apparent that having a genuinely simple fares system is not possible.

It's all very well saying "look at xyz country, why can't our system be like theirs," but are their railways systems really as complex as ours?

Even "simple" flat fare systems like Oyster PAYG are privy to their own set of problems.

 

[yorkie]

I will explain Super Off Peak tickets in ATOC-speak.

There is no economic case for Super Off Peak tickets, because people should be buying CDs and going to the theatre instead.

However we do allow such good value tickets in some cases. In order to allow you to buy with confidence, the restrictions for each ticket do vary and we ask that you call an Indian call centre for information on each individual ticket.

As each Super Off Peak ticket has it's own unique validity code, and there are hundreds of them, you can confidently buy such a ticket in full confidence that it has some validity at some point in time.

The more flexible you can be, the more chance that a Super Off Peak ticket will suit your needs. Super Off Peak tickets are more restrictive than Off Peak tickets, for example the 1900 Kings Cross to Newcastle service permits Super Off Peak tickets to be used, but certain Off Peak ticket types cannot be used, this is designed for the sake of complete simplicity, as the ticket names describe the time that they can be used and the name Super indicates less validity (if you think we made a mistake there, we will ignore you as we are never wrong). Indeed, because the name of the ticket describes when it can be used you can buy with total confidence.

Also, the name indicates when break of journey can take place. In this case, you can confidently predict that a break of journey can take place providing it is not prohibited in the restriction code.

These simple conditions were brought to you by ATOC, whose fare system is far more simple than it was under British Rail who used complicated names such as Saver. Our new names ensure you know exactly where you stand and give you total confidence.

Our recent survey indicated 90% satisfaction, and 95% of passengers agree that the name "Off Peak" is simple and is far more accurate than the old "Saver" name, this is because under BR all non-London Savers were valid at any time. Our new system is therefore simpler, particularly as the name Off Peak accurately describes when you can use your ticket, which in many cases is at any time, or after 0415. Simple!

 

[Drsatan]

I've noticed that ticket machines sell a variety of fares to the same destination regardless of the time of day: Anytime day returns, off-peak day returns, super off peak and so forth. Because of this, I've seen passengers become very confused while attempting to buy tickets from a ticket machine.

Wouldn't it be simpler if ticket machines only sold the type of ticket valid for the time of day? For instance, until 09:30 ticket machines would only sell Anytime day returns. If a passenger wanted to buy a different type of ticket for some reason, a 'more fares' button leading to a menu detailing a wider range of ticket types should be provided.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Apparently, people are avoiding tikcet machines now and using booking offices instead because staff just sell the cheapeest, most straightforward ticket

 

[brompton rail]

I've noticed that ticket machines sell a variety of fares to the same destination regardless of the time of day: Anytime day returns, off-peak day returns, super off peak and so forth. Because of this, I've seen passengers become very confused while attempting to buy tickets from a ticket machine.

Wouldn't it be simpler if ticket machines only sold the type of ticket valid for the time of day? For instance, until 09:30 ticket machines would only sell Anytime day returns. If a passenger wanted to buy a different type of ticket for some reason, a 'more fares' button leading to a menu detailing a wider range of ticket types should be provided.

So if you want to catch the 09:31 train you can't because you don't have enough time to buy and board.

And, yes of course, customers would rather buy from a fellow human being with whom you can speak than use a squeaky voiced automated till whether you are at the station, Tesco Express, Boots or Sainsburys. Much better for companies to buy capital expensive machinery than to employ people and help reduce the dole queues!

 

[button_boxer]

I've noticed that ticket machines sell a variety of fares to the same destination regardless of the time of day: Anytime day returns, off-peak day returns, super off peak and so forth. Because of this, I've seen passengers become very confused while attempting to buy tickets from a ticket machine.

I have the opposite problem at Derby. Before 09:00 (or if you choose the "tickets for tomorrow" option) the machine will not sell an off-peak day return to Sheffield, only an Anytime (the default option) or Anytime Day. To buy an off-peak ticket at peak time or for the following day you have to go the the ticket office.

Or you could buy online and collect from the machine but I find this much slower and more fiddly than just buying a ticket there and then (insert the right card, enter a random 6-digit reference number, make a mistake, re-enter the right number, .... as opposed to "Sheffield", "other tickets", "off-peak day return" and insert a £10 note).

 

[jon0844]

FCC introduced super off-peak tickets, around the time they'd increased ordinary off-peak tickets by quite a lot (and they increase prices more than just every January too - often in May and September too).

Anyway, for some time you could ONLY buy these from a ticket window which was a nonsense. Now, I'm happy to say, that at weekends you CAN buy them from a TVM. In fact, they've even set the machines to ONLY offer super off-peak tickets and not the more expensive and basically identical off-peak ones.

Common sense has prevailed, but I wonder how much FCC made from people paying for a normal ticket when they didn't even know the super off-peak ones existed by using a TVM, as everyone is being encouraged to do. They won't be getting refunds will they!

 

[Drsatan]

Or you could buy online and collect from the machine but I find this much slower and more fiddly than just buying a ticket there and then (insert the right card, enter a random 6-digit reference number, make a mistake, re-enter the right number, .... as opposed to "Sheffield", "other tickets", "off-peak day return" and insert a £10 note).

When using a Fasttrack machine at Birmingham NS all I needed to do was insert a debit card and the ticket I booked using that card was automatically printed; I didn't need to insert the booking reference.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Another approach to simplifying ticket machines sales is to provide a yes/no flow series of Q & As with the minium of info provided on each screen:

first screen:
*welcome to ..., do you want a buy ticket to travel from this station or another ?

second screen
which station are you travelling to ? (enter from A-Z keyboard below)

third screen
single or return ?

fourth screen ?
do you want a flexible ticket or one where you must choose and stick to the train specifiied on the ticket (advance purchase, cheaper)

fifth screen
so you want a flexible ticket ? would like to a cheaper ticket and avoid rush hour trains (screen specifies which trains you have to avoid)

sixth screen
adults ? children ? railcards ?

seventh screen
you have chosen an off peak return single from Cardiff to Ely. Please pay £39.70.

thank you for your purchase.

 

[jon0844]

It would be easy to offer quick-fares and more advanced options on the same machine. The 'home screen' on any touchscreen system has more than enough room to offer choices from the outset, while also offering things like language options or even larger text options for the visually impaired.

All it takes is some good design, testing and knowing what the actual objective is from the outset.

Some machines will have 'travel today' 'travel tomorrow' (which appears from mid-afternoon) while others offer a selected range of tickets that will often be more than one page (yet how many people know to switch to page two?) which is silly - the first section should a menu with 'travel today' at the top and then things like 'reservations', 'ticket extensions', 'route planning' or whatever added below.

As you say, simple 'wizards' could extract information during the process - while regulars can simply bypass the simple stuff and go for exactly what they want. Everyone is (or should be) happy.

And in my world, there would be a standard interface for all ticket machines. I don't care who makes the hardware, or what the machine looks like, but as long as it is based on a standard platform (most likely Windows) then it will run software built to a standard required by the whole railway industry. Technophobes can at least expect to get a single interface to learn, as against variations often at a single station. That's just ridiculous.

 

[Scotty]

Designing an efficient and helpful TVM frontend would be an ideal University project for someone...

 

[jon0844]

Designing a good system needs to be coupled with decent user-testing too.

What might seem good isn't always the case when put out for use by the great unwashed!

A good 5-6 years ago, I visited a company that did usability testing for many large businesses. They pointed a camera at the user as they did things, like fill in forms and navigate websites, with the camera monitoring eye movement. This eye tracking proved valuable as it shows how people first look around a screen. People don't automatically start at the top left and work down - and many want to scan the whole screen.

Only by learning how people react can you then build something that is simple and intuitive. As you say, it may make a very good university project for someone - but there are already companies out there that do this for any company or organisation that wants to do things properly.

 

[BW]

*welcome to ..., do you want a buy ticket to travel from this station or another ?

Are there any TVMs which will sell you a ticket to travel from another station? First Capital Connect (Welwyn North), East Coast (Kings Cross) and Southern (I think, Waterloo) TVMs don't seem to have the option anywhere.

At the very least, given the number of people in and around London who must have zonal travelcards, offering "from Boundry Zone n" would be sensible.

I asked FCC about this. They ignored me.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Are there any TVMs which will sell you a ticket to travel from another station? First Capital Connect (Welwyn North), East Coast (Kings Cross) and Southern (I think, Waterloo) TVMs don't seem to have the option anywhere.

At the very least, given the number of people in and around London who must have zonal travelcards, offering "from Boundry Zone n" would be sensible.

I asked FCC about this. They ignored me.

Don't think so.

 

[WatcherZero]

Some of the older mechanical TVM's did, becuase they were too simple to know where they were you had to enter origin and destination. I doubt any are still around however.

 

[jon0844]

There's no option as it would supposedly allow people to buy invalid tickets, even though you could just as easily do that from a ticket window.

I don't understand the logic. If someone buys a ticket to defraud the railway, you take them to court. You don't stop genuine people from getting the ticket they need for the sake of possible fraudsters!

 

[Chapeltom]

Just looking on NRE for tickets from Chapel en le Frith to Atherton (Manchester). I've lost my railcard, straight forward adult fare £13.75. I've split at Manchester on my trips along that line towards Wigan, £8.20 to MAN then £3.30 to ATN, £11.50.

I then decided to split at Hazel Grove, a station just inside the GMPTE area. £5.50 CEF to HAZ, £3.30 HAZ to ATN, that is £8.80! Baring in mind a railcard fare from CEF to ATN is £9.05 it shows there is some serious loopholes to exploit! Splitting tickets would save me £4.95, that is quite a lot!

 

[jon0844]

Every little helps!

It's not easy to suggest the ultimate solution to the ticketing mess we have (and it isn't a flat rate fare for the whole of the UK as someone sarcastically suggested) but we do need to do something.

And, ticketing WILL change in the future. We'll move towards smartcards and other innovations (not that I'm convinced the print-at-home barcodes are the long-term solution) that will hopefully allow more intelligent pricing and rewards for loyalty etc.

The question is when will the industry start to look at ticketing?

 

[CompactDstrxion]

There's no option as it would supposedly allow people to buy invalid tickets, even though you could just as easily do that from a ticket window.

I don't understand the logic. If someone buys a ticket to defraud the railway, you take them to court. You don't stop genuine people from getting the ticket they need for the sake of possible fraudsters!

Not to mention you can just book whatever ticket you want online then collect from the TVM.

 

[WatcherZero]

I guess in the simplest world you would just reduce it down to:

Peak (turn up and go)
Off Peak (turn up and go)
Advance (sold online)
Smartcard (to automatically calculate various discounts for you including Wayfarer, concessions, seasons and PTE discounts)

 

[jon0844]

Yes, and then you have to decide on how much you charge. Do you tear everything up and start again, so you don't have all the oddities brought on by regulated fares and unregulated ones?

I guess that if you had a system that encouraged smartcard usage first and foremost (just as most people in London now use Oyster) then you could keep higher fares for irregular travellers and give reductions over time to others. That would also encourage more usage in the long run - and a feeling of being rewarded for regular/repeat custom.

You probably need to employ someone who runs existing loyalty card systems to work out the best way to do this well.

 

[Greenback]

I guess in the simplest world you would just reduce it down to:

Peak (turn up and go)
Off Peak (turn up and go)
Advance (sold online)
Smartcard (to automatically calculate various discounts for you including Wayfarer, concessions, seasons and PTE discounts)

Why wouldn' you have Advance tickets sold at ticket offices? Not everyone has internet access, and not everyone is happy using a card online.

 

[WatcherZero]

They could be, I was just trying to illustrate difference from turn up and go.

I was thinking you basically pre register elligibility for concessions via your smartcard account (submitting proof if needed) and their applied to the base peak/off peak rate, these two rates would be regulated (though operators get more of the fare box revenue to encourage investment and focus on growing passengers). PTE's can then alter their revenue support dynamically. No more ticket splitting unless you get off and scan your card on the readers of the platform. Yes this means that people who know fare break points cant exploit them anymore without physical effort and inconveniance but it means the discounts are going to those who are paying for them, the local residents. Where alternate routes offer differing costs a conductor comes along with a mobile reader to scan passengers cards and register the route they took, also checking for fare evasion.

 

[Greenback]

They could be, I was just trying to illustrate difference from turn up and go.

I was thinking you basically pre register elligibility for concessions via your smartcard account (submitting proof if needed) and their applied to the base peak/off peak rate, these two rates would be regulated (though operators get more of the fare box revenue to encourage investment and focus on growing passengers). PTE's can then alter their revenue support dynamically. No more ticket splitting unless you get off and scan your card on the readers of the platform. Yes this means that people who know fare break points cant exploit them anymore without physical effort and inconveniance but it means the discounts are going to those who are paying for them, the local residents. Where alternate routes offer differing costs a conductor comes along with a mobile reader to scan passengers cards and register the route they took, also checking for fare evasion.

Oops, sorry! Are you talking about smart cards for local areas like PTE's? I'm not sure what you mean by operators getting more of the farebox revenue?

I quite like the idea for guards to be involved in route registering, it will encourage TOC's to keep guards, but I;m conerned what happens if the guard is dealing with other things and can;t get through the train.

 

[WatcherZero]

At moment companies like northern only get 20% of cap and collar above minimum revenue guarentees while government gets the rest, this would be rebalanced to reward investment in growing the franchise popularity.

Single national ITSO smart card could be available as a guarenteed supplier but as their interoperable it doesnt matter who issued them, PTE's could issue their own, even franchises could issue them they will work equally for everyone anywhere in the country. Could be a single backbone system to share the card information else each issuer has a requirement to make registering of all entitlements possible through an interface (possibly questionaire) that makes those discounts knowable. Where you traveled soley within a PTE boundary you would be entitled to their discounts e.g. subsidized fares, perks like free tram travel, cheap day tickets. But passing into or through a PTE area without stopping you wouldnt as now. E.g Travelling from Preston or Blackpool to Manchester or Wigan you buy a break ticket at Bolton, thats being paid for by GM residents from PTE council tax levies and government grants for GM travellers, not anyone to benefit from. However if your a tourist or business traveller you can get them too, as long as your journeys solely within the area it doesnt discriminate.

If onboard conductor doesnt get round it will calculate cheapest route and give people benefit of doubt (as at station checkpoints), encourages operators to ensure they have a manageable workload, but the system will cope if they are unable or unwilling to check each passenger on a service with such options for fare evasion.