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BSK Carriages

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edwin_m

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It was expected of the guard (of a passenger train) to monitor the train's running and apply his brake if a speed restriction was being exceeded or if the driver was not apparently reacting to an adverse signal. This was laid down in the Rule Book, and accident reports heavily censured a guard for such failures.

I'm not sure when these rules were lifted, but I do remember travelling on an H.S.T. on the newly-privatised M.M.L. when the door release was delayed, and the conductor guard belatedly appeared with soap suds covered arms, and apologised that he'd been washing up and hadn't realised we'd stopped. Presumably he would have been able to observe the running much when at the sink...
I think this rule had been watered down by the 1970s - certainly there was no easy way to observe signals from a guard's coach, after they stopped fitting them with periscopes. It was always conditional on other duties, and the accident reports I referred to above mention reasons such as being involved with ticket checks, writing up the journal or locating mail/parcels to be offloaded at the next stop. However, in modern times, I think it would be unusual for a conductor to lose "situational awareness" sufficiently to be caught doing the washing up when approaching a station stop, though it's relatively common to be stuck with a passenger/revenue issue or delayed getting to a door control position due to passengers getting in the way.
 
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Cheshire Scot

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Basic question time:
How were these brake vans operated, by that I mean how / when did the guard know to apply the brake? and then there's the question of how much brake to apply?
Quite a different story for a freight guard working with the driver to help keep control and the couplings taught on an unfitted freight.

The Freight Guard would rely on his route knowledge to know where it would be necessary to apply the hand brake. There were also locations where it was sometimes necessary to also pin down wagon brakes to help the driver control the speed of the train.
 

Big Jumby 74

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Quite a different story for a freight guard working with the driver to help keep control and the couplings taught on an unfitted freight.
A very skilled 'art' in itself and a prime example of why detailed route knowledge was essential. Never read AFAIR of any instances of coupling being snapped as a result of inexperience or lack of attention, but sure any guard who allowed the couplings to snatch badly wouldn't have been too popular with his driver!
 

30907

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Edited: the 0626 Salisbury to Exeter, diagrammed for 4 plus the GUV, obviously went off elsewhere after arrival at Exeter, and either it, or a similarly formed set came back UP on the 1955, but where/what internal WR services it worked between times I have no idea?
Barnstaple and back at one stage, leaving EXD at 1605 or so and bringing a News van back IIRC. Fairly certain another trip was later added, probably Paignton and back.
 

Gloster

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Barnstaple and back at one stage, leaving EXD at 1605 or so and bringing a News van back IIRC. Fairly certain another trip was later added, probably Paignton and back.

In 1980 I think that the GUV that went up on the 20.20 Exeter-Basingstoke was supposed to be the same one that had come down on the 06.32 Salisbury, and then sat around at Exeter until the 16.08 to Barnstaple and 18.00 return: it remained with the same four coaches throughout. I think the News van, the one seen in many photos of Barnstaple, had gone out tacked on the back of the 04.05 Exeter DMU and came back empty in a goods.
 

6Gman

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Super photos guys, thanks!


Funny you should mention a signal box by the way, I only have three WTT's but the 1962 one has written on the front "ROSE GROVE EAST BOX" - "NOT TO BE TAKEN AWAY". So glad you spotted the writing, it adds a bit of history to it.

Going back to the topic and my opening post, this is what happened:

The location was Great Harwood station, and it had a four lane carriage shed and a loop between the shed and the up platform and main up line. Here the gradient was a 1 in 196 (that is going downwards to our right - east end)...

In the mid 1950's some seasonal carriage shunting was underway, at the end of 20 coaches was a BSK and was needed. A driver and another guy were given the task of getting this BSK out. The driver (using a WD 2-8-0) pulled the 20 coaches clear of the shed sidings and the second guy waved for him to stop when clear of the points there.

The second guy then uncoupled the BSK and waved the driver to "tap" the BSK clear. Unfortunately the second guy (with the BSK now rolling) was unable to jump aboard and put the brake on. The BSK now picked up speed watched by the signal man in the east box who was unable to do anything about it.

The BSK crashed into the concrete block at the end of this loop, this block only succeeded in stopping the bogie, the top half of the BSK continued on and ended up balancing over the edge of Hey's Lane below. Apparently a photo appeared in a local paper showing a bus gingerly passing under it!
A WD Austerity seems just about the worst possible loco to use on a long rake of coaching stock!
 

Friary Yard

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In 1980 I think that the GUV that went up on the 20.20 Exeter-Basingstoke was supposed to be the same one that had come down on the 06.32 Salisbury, and then sat around at Exeter until the 16.08 to Barnstaple and 18.00 return: it remained with the same four coaches throughout. I think the News van, the one seen in many photos of Barnstaple, had gone out tacked on the back of the 04.05 Exeter DMU and came back empty in a goods.
There was a GUV (News) for Barnstaple on the 00.30 Paddington to Penzance Newspaper Train which arrived at Exeter about 03.30 and was attached to the first DMU to Barnstaple. I cannot remember the return working.
 

Gloster

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There was a GUV (News) for Barnstaple on the 00.30 Paddington to Penzance Newspaper Train which arrived at Exeter about 03.30 and was attached to the first DMU to Barnstaple. I cannot remember the return working.

The 00.30 split at Taunton: after a four minutes stop and a change of crews (all Taunton men) the front portion was non-stop to Plymouth. The rear vans unloaded the Taunton papers and then headed off to Newton Abbot behind a loco that (usually) came up light from Exeter. I have to say that on the couple of occasions I was at St David’s at that time of the morning, the Barnstaple papers were being unloaded into BRUTEs and moved across to another GUV running as tail traffic to the 04.05. The GUV came back in a passenger rake on Saturdays, but there is no mention of it in the Carriage Workings on Mondays to Fridays.
 

Andy873

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A WD Austerity seems just about the worst possible loco to use on a long rake of coaching stock!
The WD Austerities were the predominant engines at Rose Grove only 5.5 miles away at the eastern end of the branch line (actually on the East Lancs line) at the time.

I wonder why only two men tried to get the BSK coach out? surely it needed three?, the driver, the second guy who uncoupled the BSK and who should have been onboard ready with the brake, and a third to signal the driver to tap the coach free?

A third person must have been there - the signalman in the west signal box, movements in / out of these carriage shed sidings required the west box to be open to control the points etc...
 

LowLevel

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A very skilled 'art' in itself and a prime example of why detailed route knowledge was essential. Never read AFAIR of any instances of coupling being snapped as a result of inexperience or lack of attention, but sure any guard who allowed the couplings to snatch badly wouldn't have been too popular with his driver!
It happened every now and then, as I understand it.

Drivers being heavy handed had much the same impact. It was just a fact of life with loose fitted trains that you'd break a coupling occasionally, the key was noticing it had happened and stopping everything safely.
 

Rescars

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Good point. No intension meant to suggest any blame for such things would automatically be with the 'man in the van', as the phrase sometimes use to be!
David Smith's "Tales of the GSWR" are peppered with anecdotes about the challenges of working unfitted freights over heavily graded routes - breakaways, heavy handed drivers, guards who fell asleep, etc, etc along with some wonderful comments (in the local dialect) made by those closely involved!
 

6Gman

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David Smith's "Tales of the GSWR" are peppered with anecdotes about the challenges of working unfitted freights over heavily graded routes - breakaways, heavy handed drivers, guards who fell asleep, etc, etc along with some wonderful comments (in the local dialect) made by those closely involved!
And short wheelbase ancient brakevans hurried along at speeds inappropriate to their condition!
 

Merle Haggard

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I think this rule had been watered down by the 1970s - certainly there was no easy way to observe signals from a guard's coach, after they stopped fitting them with periscopes. It was always conditional on other duties, and the accident reports I referred to above mention reasons such as being involved with ticket checks, writing up the journal or locating mail/parcels to be offloaded at the next stop. However, in modern times, I think it would be unusual for a conductor to lose "situational awareness" sufficiently to be caught doing the washing up when approaching a station stop, though it's relatively common to be stuck with a passenger/revenue issue or delayed getting to a door control position due to passengers getting in the way.
Railways Archive is currently loading a few accident reports every day, dating from the 1870s. Even in those days, I detect that the Inspecting Officer was sometimes sceptical about the truth behind the reasons guards gave for not noticing adverse signals etc. The reports are often object lessons in how you can imply doubt and criticism without it being transparent.
In defence of the guard delayed by washing up; I was alighting from the TRFKB and the guard was a regular on the service, and generally outgoing and proactive. He may have been caught out by the (then) newly introduced C.D.L.. Perhaps more worrying was M.M.L.'s policy of coffee cups being washed in tepid, possibly not-drinking, water by guards - all those germs and virii (??) for transfer between lips and cups of successive passengers....
Also on the subject of conductor guards; long ago, I sometimes travelled home from work on a Blackpool/Barrow service from Euston. Because of the division of portions, it had a brake coach in the centre of the train, usually a BCK. On one occasion, reclining in the luxury of this coach, our departure from Euston was reluctant with a heavy tug and protesting buckeye springs. A few sparks and the sound of frying eggs suggested the handbrake was hard on. I did walk down the train to find the guard, who reluctantly accompanied me back, made a desultory tug of the brake wheel and said nothing was wrong. He said to another passenger 'he worries too much!'. Approaching Rugby, I walked towards the door by the van; the guard was standing the other side of the swing door and indicated 'we got here o.k.', rather dismissively I thought. As we drew to a halt, they smell of burning grease became stronger, and clouds of smoke blew up the outside of the coach. I had a tight connection to the Northampton train; only had time to notice the cherry red wheels. Looking in the control log the next morning showed considerable delays caused by shunting the two portions around an instantly red-carded BCK - Rugby only had one down platform then, of course. Could have had an even unhappier ending - a coach on a Glasgow express in steam days went for a shorter and slower run in a similar situation before the false flanges caused derailment and casualties. We went through a few facing points, some at 100 mph...
 
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