BT Copper to Fibre

[JohnMcL7]

Basically the only real world actual important downside to note is the lack of a backup power source for blackouts (which generally isn't needed for regular PSTN connections). How much that actually matters is very much dependent on the individual and where the live, but I will say the last time I had a power cut that lasted more than a single digit number of minutes was quite a few years ago now and even then I still had mobile signal just fine so I'm not convinced it is something that most of us need to worry about (in the same way that the whole "cash is king" folk seem to talk about power cuts and entire card network failures all of the time, the actual chance of you being caught up in an event like that is pretty slim!). I do however think care needs to be given for those where this may be an issue, I'm specifically thinking of elderly folk who may rely on things like personal alarms, but even they are being replaced with digital ones that connect to the mobile phone networks these days.

Agreed and also I'd add that copper landlines are nowhere near as bulletproof as people are claiming since a storm that has taken down power could also have taken down the landline which has happened several times for some of my friends who live in rural areas. In reality I've had far more problems with copper landlines in general usage than I have had with complete power outages as on a couple of occasions I've been without a landline until I could get an engineer to the house to check it and then fix whatever had gone wrong down at the exchange.

Looking at the comments above it highlights BT need to do a better job explaining why they have to remove PSTN services as there are very genuine reasons that are forcing them to do it rather than then ill thought out vindictive move some are seeing it as.

 

[sor]

FTTP is going to be a drawn out process. OR often decide to overbuild into planned AltNet areas because they want to retain their monopoly status where they can charge more for their wholesale packages. As for AltNets using existing OR ducts and poles, that’s something OR are required to offer and they do so for a reasonable price however as the kit doesn’t belong to OR, they can’t touch it.

More accurately, Openreach want copper gone no matter where it happens to be. It's hardly surprising that OR's priority areas align with that of the so called altnets, and both are encroaching on Virgin Media's territory too. It's easy to be cheaper than Openreach when they cherry pick to an extreme and avoid any vaguely difficult areas (those still too difficult even after using OR's physical infrastructure - such "competition"!), and where financial viability seems to be a secondary concern. Lots of news of financial distress in the "altnet" sector as of late.

There is however plenty of fibre build in areas where OR are and will likely ever be the only option. There has to be if they want to get to their plan of at least 25m homes.

It may be ten years ago now; but storm Desmond took out the entire electricity supply for Lancaster for hours on end (and in some parts of the city, days). Mobile 'phone users were wandering about trying to get a signal just to understand what was going on; whereas those of us with landlines were able to talk to anyone in the UK. Those who needed to were able to call emergency services.

In a climate emergency when major storms are likely to increase in frequency this seems like a retrograde step and one in which the full implications have not been recognised.

And your cordless phone, connected to that landline, wouldn't have worked anyway. Lots of people don't have a landline phone at all, even if they are paying for the service - let alone those who followed established advice to keep a *corded* phone around for emergencies.

Fibre may even add resiliency here, as it is much less affected by environmental factors like water ingress. A flood for example, is probably going to do a number on all that underground copper and those cabinets filled with electronics. (Openreach's version of fibre to the premises does not require any active electronics in the street, though the altnets often do)

Why do I wonder if the decision taken to set these particular "wheels in motion" was the brainchild of someone like the most obnoxious executive who is portrayed in the latest Nationwide Building Society TV advert who has no innate sense of how such an action could have drawbacks.

Given that all of the major telcos and Ofcom have been involved in the decision, more thought has gone into it than you think, and the reality is - as said above - hardly anyone could actually take advantage of any perceived reliability of the landline anyway, no matter how misguided that perception is

Agreed and also I'd add that copper landlines are nowhere near as bulletproof as people are claiming since a storm that has taken down power could also have taken down the landline which has happened several times for some of my friends who live in rural areas. In reality I've had far more problems with copper landlines in general usage than I have had with complete power outages as on a couple of occasions I've been without a landline until I could get an engineer to the house to check it and then fix whatever had gone wrong down at the exchange.

Looking at the comments above it highlights BT need to do a better job explaining why they have to remove PSTN services as there are very genuine reasons that are forcing them to do it rather than then ill thought out vindictive move some are seeing it as.

Very true. I believe BT has started doing so with various roadshows and public events. It is also worth pointing out that the rest of the industry needs to lift a finger too - not everyone has a landline from BT or even via Openreach's network (ie Virgin)

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Just had FTTP recently go live on the pole outside my house. Got it installed today on a 500Mbit package. It’s night and day compared to my old FTTC which was running on knackered copper cable (had a 67Mbit package but was lucky to get 20-30 Mbit). Shame I can’t change the router as the one that’s supplied isn’t that brilliant range-wise…

 

[Pete_uk]

You can always get another wireless router and plug that in which is what I do. My ISP router had WiFi off and I have a network cable from that down to a room below into the back of another wireless router.

Anyway, a new sub surface box has been put in up the road for fibre and I'm not sure if it's related but a few telegraph poles have these dome topped round things strapped to them.

 

[Energy]

Anyway, a new sub surface box has been put in up the road for fibre and I'm not sure if it's related but a few telegraph poles have these dome topped round things strapped to them.

They are but for the altnet Netomnia rather than Openreach.

Openreach's look very similar but have their sticker on it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Our small development have been notified that the properties will be going over to digital voice in the middle of December this year.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

You can always get another wireless router and plug that in which is what I do. My ISP router had WiFi off and I have a network cable from that down to a room below into the back of another wireless router.

We’ve got Sky Talk over the VoIP system now and I’m led to believe this won’t work with non-Sky routers?

 

[Ediswan]

We’ve got Sky Talk over the VoIP system now and I’m led to believe this won’t work with non-Sky routers?

You would still be accessing the internet via the Sky router. There is a fair chance Sky Talk would still work. Maybe look at a Sky specialist forum ?

 

[SteveP29]

It'll probably be a standard BT router with WiFi turned off. BT will want the opportunity to upsell broadband to the few who don't already have it as well.

Cue design teams in several landline handset manufacturers designing handsets with the built in router in the base unit.
(Don't get any ideas Alan Sugar and Amstrad)

 

[ValentaFan1974]

You would still be accessing the internet via the Sky router. There is a fair chance Sky Talk would still work. Maybe look at a Sky specialist forum ?

I’ve looked on the Sky forum and you have to use the Sky Router effectively as a bridge linked with the 3rd party router in order for Sky Talk to work, which is a ballache.

 

[Ediswan]

I’ve looked on the Sky forum and you have to use the Sky Router effectively as a bridge linked with the 3rd party router in order for Sky Talk to work, which is a ballache.

Do you have a link to that discussion ?

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Do you have a link to that discussion ?

Certainly

Using another router other than Sky's

Hi, I'd just like to know if I use my own router, does it affect how much I pay to sky or any of the services I have with sky? Thanks

helpforum.sky.com

 

[Greybeard33]

It has been reported that Openreach and BT Wholesale are developing a phone line product called SOTAP for Analogue (Single Order Transitional Access Product for Analogue) or a "Pre-Digital Phone Line" for vulnerable phone-only users who do not want internet access. The end user premises will continue to connect to the exchange by analogue signals over the existing copper cable, so that no digital boxes or wiring changes are needed in the user's premises. But in the exchange the cable will be routed to a digital terminal adapter instead of the analogue PSTN equipment, to create a VoIP line similar to Digital Voice. The copper line will still be powered from the exchange, so an analogue wired phone will work during a power cut.

It is intended that this "transitional" product will remain available at least until 2030, postponing the 2025 "cliff edge" for such users. However it is not yet known exactly when it will be available, nor which groups of users it will be offered to.

Openreach Prep Alternative UK Analogue Style Phone Product

Openreach is developing an additional phone line product, which does NOT require a broadband connection to function and will be targetted at vulnerable and edge

www.ispreview.co.uk

The new SOTAP for Analogue solution is a standalone product that will be available “nationally” (not just outside the All IP footprint), which means related end-users will be able to migrate to it even in areas of FTTP and SOGEA coverage. Just to be clear, the focus here is only on migrations for existing / working lines (WLR3), so consumers won’t be able to order it as a new product.

Openreach states in a recent video download (at 19:15) that this solution “provides point to point copper access between an end customer premises and the CP equipment using pre-existing LLU [Local Loop Unbundling] ties within the exchange. It is required to allow end customers who have a WLR3 only line today, to maintain a working voice only service.”

In short, the new service is trying to replicate (or emulate) a traditional phone line – “as close as possible“, but within a modern network (i.e. the end customer shouldn’t notice any difference). This also means that these lines will be powered, just like a traditional line, which should help to support those with older telecare style devices that haven’t yet been upgraded to support digital products. But some aspects of this have yet to be confirmed via testing (it’s still a beta product).

Rental pricing will be aligned to the existing wholesale pricing for a traditional Wholesale Line Rental (WLR) product, thus those affected won’t notice much of a change, if any at all, in price. According to Openreach, BT Wholesale will offer this product to providers under the title of a ‘Pre-Digital Phone Line‘.

 

[Ediswan]

Certainly

Using another router other than Sky's

Hi, I'd just like to know if I use my own router, does it affect how much I pay to sky or any of the services I have with sky? Thanks

helpforum.sky.com

As best as I can tell, that discussion is about replacing the Sky router with a third-party router. This suggests that Sky Talk is an implementation of VoIP which relies on something in the Sky router.

What @Pete_uk suggested was retaining the Sky router and adding a third-party wifi access point. This is a different arrangement and may well work.

 

[JamesT]

As best as I can tell, that discussion is about replacing the Sky router with a third-party router. This suggests that Sky Talk is an implementation of VoIP which relies on something in the Sky router.

What @Pete_uk suggested was retaining the Sky router and adding a third-party wifi access point. This is a different arrangement and may well work.

As I understand it, Sky are like most other providers and putting an analogue port on the back of their router to plug your existing phone into. The VoIP is then provided by the router talking back to Sky, rather than IP phones on your LAN.

I would agree with trying to trying to add access points rather than routers to improve WiFi. Unfortunately many systems default to being a router so you end up with double NAT.

 

[Pete_uk]

So, if a non Openreach company lays the fibre can I still keep my ISP (Plusnet)?

 

[JamesT]

So, if a non Openreach company lays the fibre can I still keep my ISP (Plusnet)?

Plusnet are a division of BT, so I doubt they would offer services over anyone else’s infrastructure.

 

[Ken X]

So, if a non Openreach company lays the fibre can I still keep my ISP (Plusnet)?

If it is anything like Horsham, we now have three fibre networks laid to the end of our drive. Openreach (BT/EE), Virgin and Cityfibre (O2). Predictably we are receiving sales visits from these companies engouraging us to join their system.

I would guess that if you wish to use Plusnet then BT will continue to supply your service.

We are eagerly waiting to see if we are to get a fourth (or more) fibre network. No sooner do one company fill in their holes then the next start spraying and marking the roads. I only wish I had shares in the company that hires out mobile traffic lights.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am not sure if this has been asked already, but the matter of having the use of a mobile phone should the BT digital voice system go down, in the case of elderly people who only have a landline and no mobile phone (two such people live near to me in their 80s), will BT supply such an emergency-only mobile phone free of charge? Many years ago, I remember O2 having a pay-as-you-go mobile phone that only required keeping a very small balance and a minimum of 2 to 3 calls per year. I asked about that in the O2 shop in Stockport last time I was there and the shop manager said O2 no longer offered that type of service and the pay-as-you-go products now offered require a monthly subscription contract.

 

[GusB]

I am not sure if this has been asked already, but the matter of having the use of a mobile phone should the BT digital voice system go down, in the case of elderly people who only have a landline and no mobile phone (two such people live near to me in their 80s), will BT supply such an emergency-only mobile phone free of charge? Many years ago, I remember O2 having a pay-as-you-go mobile phone that only required keeping a very small balance and a minimum of 2 to 3 calls per year. I asked about that in the O2 shop in Stockport last time I was there and the shop manager said O2 no longer offered that type of service and the pay-as-you-go products now offered require a monthly subscription contract.

If BT was to supply free mobile phones, and I doubt it would, the phone would almost certainly be on the EE network, rather than O2. The link between BT and o2 was severed when the latter was spun off as a separate company and it's now tied up with Virgin.

If O2 no longer offer a pay as you go option, there are other mobile providers that still do. Tesco mobile offers a prepay SIM that you can either top up in the traditional way, or you can set up a monthly recurring top up. Tesco uses the O2 network if this is essential. There is, however, a vast number of providers out there and it'd be advisable to shop around.

 

[JamesT]

If BT was to supply free mobile phones, and I doubt it would, the phone would almost certainly be on the EE network, rather than O2. The link between BT and o2 was severed when the latter was spun off as a separate company and it's now tied up with Virgin.

If O2 no longer offer a pay as you go option, there are other mobile providers that still do. Tesco mobile offers a prepay SIM that you can either top up in the traditional way, or you can set up a monthly recurring top up. Tesco uses the O2 network if this is essential. There is, however, a vast number of providers out there and it'd be advisable to shop around.

Though if the intention is that the mobile is for infrequent emergency use you do need to be careful reading the terms. Mobile providers will usually revoke your number if you don't make a chargeable use of it, they may also expire the credit on a similar basis. So pulling the backup phone out of a drawer after six months you may find it's not actually any use. (Unless the emergency requires calling 999, in which case a phone without a sim will work)

 

[DelW]

I am not sure if this has been asked already, but the matter of having the use of a mobile phone should the BT digital voice system go down, in the case of elderly people who only have a landline and no mobile phone (two such people live near to me in their 80s), will BT supply such an emergency-only mobile phone free of charge? Many years ago, I remember O2 having a pay-as-you-go mobile phone that only required keeping a very small balance and a minimum of 2 to 3 calls per year. I asked about that in the O2 shop in Stockport last time I was there and the shop manager said O2 no longer offered that type of service and the pay-as-you-go products now offered require a monthly subscription contract.

The Three network still offers a PAYG tariff that doesn't need a minimum monthly spend - credit is rolled forward without expiring. I used it until last summer, but switched away as my usage (and the data charge) had increased to the point where a monthly contract was cheaper (£6 per month). For an occasional / emergency user it would be an option though.
Basic SIM-free phones (i.e. not linked to a particular network) are available from Argos from £18 upwards. No doubt other retailers might offer something similar.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Though if the intention is that the mobile is for infrequent emergency use you do need to be careful reading the terms. Mobile providers will usually revoke your number if you don't make a chargeable use of it, they may also expire the credit on a similar basis. So pulling the backup phone out of a drawer after six months you may find it's not actually any use. (Unless the emergency requires calling 999, in which case a phone without a sim will work)

…. 112/999 will not work in the UK without an active SIM card in the phone. Although the GSM standard allows the ability to make emergency calls without a sim inserted, it’s not supported in the UK.

However several years back they changed it so your phone will connect to any available mobile network to connect a 112/999 call should your home network be unavailable.

 

[sor]

It has been reported that Openreach and BT Wholesale are developing a phone line product called SOTAP for Analogue (Single Order Transitional Access Product for Analogue) or a "Pre-Digital Phone Line" for vulnerable phone-only users who do not want internet access. The end user premises will continue to connect to the exchange by analogue signals over the existing copper cable, so that no digital boxes or wiring changes are needed in the user's premises. But in the exchange the cable will be routed to a digital terminal adapter instead of the analogue PSTN equipment, to create a VoIP line similar to Digital Voice. The copper line will still be powered from the exchange, so an analogue wired phone will work during a power cut.

It is intended that this "transitional" product will remain available at least until 2030, postponing the 2025 "cliff edge" for such users. However it is not yet known exactly when it will be available, nor which groups of users it will be offered to.

Openreach Prep Alternative UK Analogue Style Phone Product

Openreach is developing an additional phone line product, which does NOT require a broadband connection to function and will be targetted at vulnerable and edge

www.ispreview.co.uk

I suspect this is the stopgappiest of stopgaps. This is likely for places that can't get FTTC or FTTP nor have reasonable mobile coverage. There won't be a meaningful number of lines delivered using this approach & it is not the u-turn the "but power cuts!!!!" crowd were hoping for

So, if a non Openreach company lays the fibre can I still keep my ISP (Plusnet)?

No. While some ISPs use multiple physical networks, Plusnet as a subsidiary of BT is never likely to use anyone except Openreach - and even if they were independent there are still compelling reasons not to, as Openreach's fibre network is several times larger than anyone else and the works needed to bring on an other supplier are not trivial nor cheap.

I am not sure if this has been asked already, but the matter of having the use of a mobile phone should the BT digital voice system go down, in the case of elderly people who only have a landline and no mobile phone (two such people live near to me in their 80s), will BT supply such an emergency-only mobile phone free of charge? Many years ago, I remember O2 having a pay-as-you-go mobile phone that only required keeping a very small balance and a minimum of 2 to 3 calls per year. I asked about that in the O2 shop in Stockport last time I was there and the shop manager said O2 no longer offered that type of service and the pay-as-you-go products now offered require a monthly subscription contract.

I suspect BT will upgrade such customers to broadband at no extra cost, just so it can provide Digital Voice over the top. There is a very very slow Openreach product that seems designed specifically for this purpose. Enough speed for a phone service but nothing useful for actual internet access. They'd be sent a router, asked to plug their phone into the back of that, and life goes on.

The type of PAYG you want still exists, for example 1pmobile use the EE network and you can pay £30 a year to keep a SIM going.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The type of PAYG you want still exists, for example 1pmobile use the EE network and you can pay £30 a year to keep a SIM going.

The two elderly octogenarian women to which I referred to in my earlier posting who both only had landline phones with BT would not be very happy having to pay this extra £30 a year on top of their existing phone charges, just because BT have decided to obviate the existing call facility to emergency services that would be needed if there was a problem with digital voice.

BT in their "cannot lose" RPI +3.9% annual increase must have been delighted to see the high rate of RPI earlier in the year saw that total charge increase to 14% and some of that money should be used by BT to fund the type of circumstances to which I referred.

 

[sor]

The two elderly octogenarian women to which I referred to in my earlier posting who both only had landline phones with BT would not be very happy having to pay this extra £30 a year on top of their existing phone charges, just because BT have decided to obviate the existing call facility to emergency services that would be needed if there was a problem with digital voice.

BT in their "cannot lose" RPI +3.9% annual increase must have been delighted to see the high rate of RPI earlier in the year saw that total charge increase to 14% and some of that money should be used by BT to fund the type of circumstances to which I referred.

What problems do you foresee with digital voice that didn't exist with what most people have (had) - a landline with a cordless phone that requires constant mains power to function? BT has already proposed to provide a free battery backup unit to its vulnerable customers.

My point was more that if someone wants to self-provide a mobile phone, there are cheap options.

 

[87 027]

…. 112/999 will not work in the UK without an active SIM card in the phone

I can confirm from experience this is the case. Had an old phone on an EE PAYG SIM but the account was deactivated after 9 months of non use and the phone could not be used thereafter even for emergency calls.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What problems do you foresee with digital voice that didn't exist with what most people have (had) - a landline with a cordless phone that requires constant mains power to function? BT has already proposed to provide a free battery backup unit to its vulnerable customers.

The two women in question have never had a mobile phone and relied soley on their landline as they had done all their life. Neither of them have any internet also which is needed for digital voice.

 

[Energy]

The two women in question have never had a mobile phone and relied soley on their landline as they had done all their life. Neither of them have any internet also which is needed for digital voice.

If they are vulnerable then they should contact BT, who will provide a battery backup at no extra charge. BT also has a phone with a built-in mobile backup planned though I don't know if they are sending it out yet.

This applies to any operator, under Ofcom rules they are all required to provide a battery backup to vulnerable customers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they are vulnerable then they should contact BT, who will provide a battery backup free of charge.

Does that mean they will not have to set up any internet accounts. If so, that was the biggest worry that both those women expressed to me.