• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

"Bullet Train" derails in Eastern China. Carriages off bridge

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Pumbaa

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2008
Messages
4,983
Was this on one of their newly opened high speed lines? I'm on mobile, I've only got twitter for facts! 11 pulled out dead so far.
 

flymo

Established Member
Joined
22 May 2007
Messages
1,534
Location
Geordie back from exile.
Hangzhou and Wenzhou are both south of Shanghai, so not on the Beijing - Shanghai line. The train itself looks fairly new though so maybe this line has also been upgraded or newly built.
So far one report says a lightning strike caused a power-outage and another says that another train hit this train from the rear causing it to derail.
The truth will eventually come out no doubt.....perhaps.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Reports that the first train was 'struck by lightning' and stopped then rear ended by the second train, both reportedly D class. However there have been many power failures in Chinas rail system over the last month (over two dozen) and their using Lightning strike as an act of god excuse.

Also according to some reports the line had only been open a month and the authorities are using older trains on new lines to save money on running costs.
11 dead two injured so far.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,000
Reports that the first train was 'struck by lightning' and stopped then rear ended by the second train, both reportedly D class. However there have been many power failures in Chinas rail system over the last month (over two dozen) and their using Lightning strike as an act of god excuse.

To me that sounds like great trains, great infrastructure, rubbish signalling.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Units involved were D301 (CRH1B and the stopped unit) and D3115 (CRH2E), the latter was supposed to be infront but running 22 minutes late due to weather. Brakes must have been on or the damage would have been far greater.

D301 carriages 1-4 derailed
D3115 Carriages 15 and 16 derailed off side of the viaduct

Fatalities up to 16 with over 100 injured

493_280755_175bc562a494a79.jpg


That to me looks like two carriages to the ground lying flat and one lying vertically though

Cant say the disaster recovery was well handled though, couple of hundred people crawling all over the trains with a dozen firemen trying to cut people free, meanwhile bystanders only 10 metres away.

19:47 Edit: Now reports the ATP in the trailing train failed to operate and the driver activated the emergency brakes manually.
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Conflicting explanations coming out. The lead train lost power and was stationary for 23 minutes before it was hit but the official government line is that the ATP system had been turned off to keep the line running after lightning damage to signalling and a passenger on the lead train pulled the emergency cord and three minutes later it was hit.

So to summarise

Local Media: The train was struck by lightning and was stalled for 23 minutes before being hit, ATP failed to operate
National Media/Government: The ATP works but it had been switched off, a passenger pulled the brake cord and the train came to a rest 3 minutes before collision
Some passengers: both trains were in motion when the collision occured.

National Government: Burying the trains is 'to facilitate the rescue process'
Shanghai Railway Bureau: Burying the trains is to protect 'national level' technological and operating secrets from the general population
Local Media: Coverup, literally
 
Last edited:

Subwayboy

New Member
Joined
25 Jul 2011
Messages
2
Location
London
The High speed train accident in China is deeply troubling. When I first went to China in 1992 ,the railway systems were old, poorly maintained, and although generally safe, nowhere close to the levels of safety we would have expected in the UK. At that time in a fairly troubled and recently post Tiananmen square Beijing, accidents or incidents were stage managed and covered up by the communist party. The first train factory in Beijing is where I spent the summer of 1993 and it was like something from the 1950’s, only basic work tools and almost no safety culture. I still tell the story of the failed ATO system which nearly ended my life and the life of the train driver, as the Chinese Rolling stock engineers had bypassed the emergency brakes to prevent me from applying them, as strange as this sounds it was to prevent them having to re-turn the wheels on a giant ancient lathe as my brake applications tests were causing wheel flats. It never occurred to them that these brakes were protecting us from crashing, and if it were not for the quick thinking driver we would have derailed at 60km/h and hit a brick wall. I left China in 1999 some 7 years later, and already the improvements on the railways systems were tangible. Significantly more money was being spent, and all new Signalling systems were being imported from Germany, the UK , the USA and other parts of the west. Joint ventures with all the major railway players appeared around China. Rolling Stock, Signalling, Communications equipment all being manufactured under license.
In 2007, I had a further opportunity to return to Beijing and Tianjin as I was contracted to undertake some safety testing for another UK company. Although the City had changed, although the systems had somewhat changed, the overriding feeling was that the people had remained almost the same. I have some video taken on a train test were brake testing in a tunnel in 2007, somebody was welding on a station concourse above the platform sending hot sparks of molten steel on top of our test train, it was apparently normal and happened before, it was brushed off with some giggles and hasty radio conversations. Therein lies the problem, had such a minor incident happened in the UK an investigation would have taken place, this would have lead to a change in both process and people. Part of me hopes that a tangible cause for the accident on the China high speed line is found, either a wrong side failure of the signalling equipment or some design error in the application of the system being used, whether or not the Chinese Ministry of Railways decides to share this report externally is up to them, however what I hope for more than anything is that whatever or whoever is to blame, that the Chinese railway industry at large is able to learn from this mistake and ensure that it never happens again. The UK railway industry is often blamed for being over bureaucratic, costly and wasteful, it may be all of those things, but it does listen, report, feedback and improve whenever something goes wrong, however small. China has accelerated the building of high speed and metro lines at an incredible rate in the last 10 years, but as much as systems can be bought and bridges can be built and tunnels can be dug, without ensuring the people who design, test, maintain and operate these systems are fully able to deliver in a open and safe environment with a good safety culture, it is probable that this will not be the last accident of this type.
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
"even though foreign companies have long complained that the technology was actually stolen from their trains"

Seriously? Stupidest headline ever! Various manufactures sold the technology to the Chinese to build these sets.

Just a childish politically motivated attack.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Burying the trains? Seriously?

That's just what I was thinking. Are they for real!? I'm deeply perplexed at exactly what type of 'national level secret' one might find onboard a slightly ropey Chinese train, but even if there was such a thing surely burying it all is just encouragement for people to go and dig it up again!
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Confirmed theyve dug a pit next to the viaduct and their breaking up the carriages, crushing them and burying them, the Railway Bureau says its to protect their technological secrets and the government says their just burying them intact to make site access easier for heavy vehicles and will excavate them later.

The disgusting thing is their crushing and burying the carriages with bodies still inside.

[youtube]hQzsoZS9Sp0[/youtube]

Chinese 'Forensic examination'

U3938P1T1D22874743F21DT20110726021516.jpeg


U3938P1T1D22874743F1394DT20110726021516.jpeg


U3938P1T1D22874743F1395DT20110726021516.jpg


U3938P1T1D22874743F23DT20110726021516.jpeg
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Does anyone have information on the unit numbers involved?
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
Confirmed theyve dug a pit next to the viaduct and their breaking up the carriages, crushing them and burying them, the Railway Bureau says its to protect their technological secrets and the government says their just burying them intact to make site access easier for heavy vehicles and will excavate them later.

The disgusting thing is their crushing and burying the carriages with bodies still inside.

To be honest, none of this surprises me in the slightest.
Safety in China is non existent. Switching off ATP because of signalling problems sounds daft, but its the sort of shortcut they would take.

Burying the trains with bodies inside isnt anything surprising either. Life means nothing in China. As long as there is another dogsbody (the governments way of looking at everybody) able to take the place of any dead people, the government are happy.

As for the railways saying they are burying technological secrets. Seperate the 2 words, and they are actually telling the truth. Technology= Black box. Secrets = The truth hidden in the black box.
This unfortunately is China all over. Until the communist government is ousted and proper freedom takes hold, this will be the normal way of life.
Its a lot better than it used to be, but this just highlights the fact that China is still a million miles behind the west, thanks to the government. They have the manpower and money to build high speed lines galore, but thats all they have.
Its the innocent public, both on and off this unfortunate train, which I feel sorry for.
 
Last edited:

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
To be honest, none of this surprises me in the slightest.
Safety in China is non existent. Switching off ATP because of signalling problems sounds daft, but its the sort of shortcut they would take.

Burying the trains with bodies inside isnt anything surprising either. Life means nothing in China. As long as there is another dogsbody (the governments way of looking at everybody) able to take the place of any dead people, the government are happy.

As for the railways saying they are burying technological secrets. Seperate the 2 words, and they are actually telling the truth. Technology= Black box. Secrets = The truth hidden in the black box.
This unfortunately is China all over. Until the communist government is ousted and proper freedom takes hold, this will be the normal way of life.
Its a lot better than it used to be, but this just highlights the fact that China is still a million miles behind the west, thanks to the government. They have the manpower and money to build high speed lines galore, but thats all they have.
Its the innocent public, both on and off this unfortunate train, which I feel sorry for.

Totally agree. The lesson from the collision in 2008 between Trains T195 and 5034 was not learnt. It was widely believed that the death toll in that tragedy had been seriously under-reported in order to cover up the incident at local level. The official figure of 72 may have been only half of the truth.

Words on the ground has it that this time the signaller ordered the driver of Train D3115 (CRH Class 1B 16-car unit run by Shanghai Sector) to slow down to 20kph and proceed on visual observation, ignoring any red aspects, due to alleged signal failures on the line. Under normal circumstances, all trains would have been halted awaiting the completion of repair work to the system. Nevertheless the Ministry of Railways had been under severe pressure from the general public over its handling of the disruption on the Beijing-Shanghai Hi-Speed Line services recently, less than a month since it started operation. There might have been orders from higher up the hierarchy to ensure that delays are minimised under whatever circumstance to "restore public confidence". Trains D3115 and D301 were both running late on departure from the previous station. Before D3115 left the section, Train D301 (judged by pictures to be formed of unit 2139E, a Class 2E 16-car unit run by Beijing Sector) was also cleared into the same section of tracks on the order to "proceed with caution" due to D3115 still being there. This was such a serious breach of safety rules that no signaller would have dared to carry out without permission (or even order) being given from very high up indeed. The message was acknowledged by the driver of D301 however oddly the order was never given for D301 to slow down. According to the timetable, D301 was supposed to be ahead of D3115 at that time. It proceeded at a speed of just under 200kph, before emergency brakes were applied when the driver saw the tail-lights of D3115 in front, nevertheless it was too late. The trains impacted at a speed differential of around 130kph.

The official death toll is currently 38 dead and 192 injured. No one really believes this. Let's look at it objectively. Train D301 ran into D3115, causing the front four coaches (1-4) of the former and the rear two coaches (15, 16) of the latter to derail (some reporters say the rear four coaches, 13-16, derailed). Coach 1 of D301 initially telescoped the back of Coach 16 of D3115 and then rose up and rode above it, bringing down the overhead lines in the process. This then caused a complete loss of power which was reported by the driver of D3115 back to control, seemingly unaware that his train had been rear-ended. At the same time passengers onboard D3115 activated the emergency breaks bringing it to a halt. Control then ordered the driver of D301 to retract the pantograph, by which time the driver had already died. Coach 1 then fell down the railway bridge, dragging down Coaches 2, 3 and 4. Coach 4 remained upright leaning against ground and the bridge and has been the main subject of most press photos (Car Number WR213904). Chinese D- and G-Category train tickets must be bought with ID and therefore it is not difficult to know how many people would be onboard. Sales report showed that Train D3115 was near capacity that day at well over 1000, with Coaches 15 and 16 for a combined total of 134 people at capacity. Coaches 2, 3 and 4 of Train D301 consisted of soft berth cabins, each containing 40 passengers. Coach 3 was reportedly operating as berth-substituted seating accommodation, meaning that it was able to carry 60 passengers. Coach 1 was the one subject to burial allegations, and it is Second Class Seating accommodation with a maximum capacity of 55. These six coaches in total gives a figure of over 300 people. Is the authority telling people that out of these derailed, telescoped and plummeting carriages, up to 80 people escaped unharmed? Don't make me laugh.

There are a lot of questions that need answering: Why was Train D301 sent into the section even though D3115 had not cleared it? Who gave the order for D301 to be sent into the section? The track signalling package CTCS-2 relied on the onboard ATP system to report its whereabouts, amongst other things. Why was the ATP system onboard D3115 switched off? Presumably it's to avoid computer interference during manual operation, however this effectively turned D3115 invisible to the control room and other vehicles. Once control realised that D3115 was now invisible and still in the section, why did they not order D301 to stop, or even slowed down? Who gave the order for the ATP to be switched off? There are plenty more questions like these that need answering, unfortunately we might never get to the bottom of it.

Edit: Just had an email off a mate. It would appear that Train D3115 was operated with unit 1046B.
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Theres a group formed of families with relatives who were on the train but havent been found in the Hospital or Morgue, currently at least 5 passengers whereabouts unaccounted for and thats just the families that have contacted each other.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
There is a huge outcry regarding the way the incident has been handled by the authorities on several of the railway forums, and a couple of them have now received formal warnings from the state that they would be shut down if moderation does not keep up. Last I saw of them, threads in relation to the incident have had most of the comments moderated (censored), and any ill-spoken words of the state deleted.

Can you imagine if it happened here? Makes you appreciate how valuable freedom really is.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,611
Location
In the cab with the paper
Terrible incident, and almost certainly a consequence of mismanagement of train movements.

It just goes to show what can happen when short-cuts are taken on safety in order to minimise delays and disruption. Unfortunately, it's a topic that seems to underly a lot of the arguments I seem to find myself drawn into when discussing the UK rail network.

O L Leigh
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
The whole programme was rushed and has been for the last decade. For example, the reason the new High-Speed Line experienced so much technical difficulty was because it had to be completed in time for the 90th Anniversary of the Communist Party on 1st July. Most of the facilities at both Shanghai Hongqiao Station and Beijing South Station at the ends of the line had been completed, whereas the project was seriously behind it's schedule at other places along the line, even major stations due to shortage of labour. We had a visit over to Nanjing South Station (the next largest station along the line - it is the ex-Nationalist Party capital and a regional centre) on 2nd July and it had no bus links, no metro links, and is in the outer suburbs. The only way to get in and out was using taxis and the access roads leading to the station was still under construction with no appropriate sign-posting, causing massive confusion amongst drivers.

Such station in any other country would not have been allowed to open.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
6,552
Location
UK
Such station in any other country would not have been allowed to open.

The chances are the project manager was told that as long as the line was on time, the dictatorship had his back covered
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Burying the coaches with bodies still inside -

Do we actually know that to be genuine? If it is, I am truly shocked. Surely if the coaches have been recovered and put in such a position as they can be attacked with a JCB, there would be no reason whatsoever to not remove any bodies, it would take very little time?!
 

Drsatan

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
1,885
Location
Land of the Sprinters
The chances are the project manager was told that as long as the line was on time, the dictatorship had his back covered

Otherwise, if the station opened later than the rest of the line, the director would become a scapegoat and would probably be arrested on trumped-up charges of 'corruption'.

Having said that the editorial in today's Times stated that corrupt officials had siphoned off money intended for high speed line construction, hence the use of cheaper, poorer quality materials.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Burying the coaches with bodies still inside -

Do we actually know that to be genuine? If it is, I am truly shocked. Surely if the coaches have been recovered and put in such a position as they can be attacked with a JCB, there would be no reason whatsoever to not remove any bodies, it would take very little time?!

No, but the practice is highly suspicious and past history does not fill observers of the situation with confidence.

Otherwise, if the station opened later than the rest of the line, the director would become a scapegoat and would probably be arrested on trumped-up charges of 'corruption'.

Having said that the editorial in today's Times stated that corrupt officials had siphoned off money intended for high speed line construction, hence the use of cheaper, poorer quality materials.

Nothing new here. The joke is that if you go and arrest any official at county level and above, plus anyone in the Hurun Report of the richest 500 entrepreneurs in the country, you will not make a single mistake as they will all have something to hide.
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
Is there any system in place to prevent the train exceeding a certain speed without the safety systems enabled? If there is, what is the limit? If not, why not?
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,611
Location
In the cab with the paper
Having said that the editorial in today's Times stated that corrupt officials had siphoned off money intended for high speed line construction, hence the use of cheaper, poorer quality materials.

I don't think that there's any suggestion that the construction materials used on the line, their cost or quality, have any bearing on this incident. This seems to be down to poor operational practices in a degraded working scenario, poor communication and a lack of clear lines of responsibility. In this instance, the materials that were of a questionable quality were largely human.

This is something that the Chinese need to get sorted out, because their domestic high-speed network is their shop window for international export. If they cannot demonstrate a fast, efficient and safe network to the rest of the world, then they won't get orders.

But while the technology issue has been raised, the Chinese system does seem to be a hotch-potch of different technologies from around the world, with traction and signalling equipment from across Europe and Japan. Clearly this raises potential issues regarding inter-operability, but it would appear that in normal service everything works just as it should. With regard to the lines themselves, it seems that the Chinese method of construction appears to like a giant Meccano set. Large sections of the network are built on pre-fabricated concrete viaducts and widespread use is made of ballastless "slab" track. While there have been allegations of corruption and high-profile sackings, a National Audit Office investigation into the building quality of all high-speed lines discovered no major quality defects.

O L Leigh
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is there any system in place to prevent the train exceeding a certain speed without the safety systems enabled? If there is, what is the limit? If not, why not?

Because it's not that simple.

Even here in the UK where you might be required to run with the TPWS temporarily isolated, there is no single maximum speed imposed and it is still possible to exceed certain limits. For example, you can proceed through a Temporary Block Working section (for which the TPWS will need to be temporarily isolated) at up to 50mph, but you must still slow down to 15mph for any unsecured points, switch diamonds or swing-nose crossings. But then if you have to isolate it because it has become defective you may still proceed at linespeed provided another competent person is available (unless there is fog or falling snow), otherwise you're down to 40mph.

So you see, one system and so many different permitted speeds.

O L Leigh
 
Last edited:

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
I don't think that there's any suggestion that the construction materials used on the line, their cost or quality, have any bearing on this incident. This seems to be down to poor operational practices in a degraded working scenario, poor communication and a lack of clear lines of responsibility. In this instance, the materials that were of a questionable quality were largely human.

This is something that the Chinese need to get sorted out, because their domestic high-speed network is their shop window for international export. If they cannot demonstrate a fast, efficient and safe network to the rest of the world, then they won't get orders.

But while the technology issue has been raised, the Chinese system does seem to be a hotch-potch of different technologies from around the world, with traction and signalling equipment from across Europe and Japan. Clearly this raises potential issues regarding inter-operability, but it would appear that in normal service everything works just as it should. With regard to the lines themselves, it seems that the Chinese method of construction appears to like a giant Meccano set. Large sections of the network are built on pre-fabricated concrete viaducts and widespread use is made of ballastless "slab" track. While there have been allegations of corruption and high-profile sackings, a National Audit Office investigation into the building quality of all high-speed lines discovered no major quality defects.

O L Leigh

Sub-standard material and construction methods is not usually the major issue. It's the highly inflated prices of these projects which meant that they could have got more for their money and sometimes, more up-to-date technology. They're not necessarily not up to scratch. Of course at the local government level they care not one little bit about it as they can afford it, regardless of central government policies.

The chain of responsibility is something of concern. Senior officials can ignore rules and regulations, give orders to overwrite advice given by experts which will then lead to scapegoats being blamed should something nasty happen. The less than transparent ways in which incidents are dealt with usually meant power jostles behind closed doors. In short, it's a bit of a mess, and this is cultural rather than anything else. However these days information spreads fast and the officials are sometimes finding it more and more difficult to cover things up and their actions can be scrutinised quite closely by the public. It is only time that some of these things will change for the better nevertheless there is still a long way to go.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top