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Bus design

joieman

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A few observations about bus design:
Firstly, most double decker buses in the UK no longer seem to have staircases that rise backwards instead of forwards; the most recent bus sold in the UK that seems to have this arrangement to my knowledge is the Ayats Bravo. I assume that backwards-rising staircases are less safe than regular forwards-rising stairs, as with the former design there is the risk that people descending on the stairs when the bus is in motion would be thrown further should the bus brake suddenly.
Secondly, I remember riding on former Arriva London DLAs in Leicestershire, and many of these had a staircase in the middle of the bus instead of over the front wheel immediately behind the driver's cab. I wonder if such an arrangement would have the potential to reduce antisocial behaviour onboard buses upstairs as there would be two shorter dead ends, as it were, rather than one long cul-de-sac.
Thirdly, I remember reading a while back that some disability campaigners wanted forwards-facing wheelchair spaces onboard buses as travelling backwards can make some people nauseous. The way I understand the design of these (as an able-bodied person) is that they face backwards to, once again, prevent injury should the bus stop suddenly, by preventing the wheelchair from moving through inertial forces. Is it possible to design a wheelchair space that allows the wheelchair user to sit forwards or even sideways, or are there any examples of this already in use?
Lastly, why do bus manufacturers still persist in putting backwards-facing seats over the rear wheels when people are reluctant to use them and they are used as little more than footrests?
 
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edwin_m

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A forward-facing wheelchair space would have problems because the most forward part of a person in a wheelchair is either the feet or the footrests. Neither would easily bear the forces imposed in sudden braking, and are low enough that there is a risk of the wheelchair tipping forward. Some wheelchair-bound people might also have difficulty remaining upright in a frontal collision. A sideways wheelchair space would have similar issues in the event of a turn or swerve causing lateral forces.
 

JonathanH

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Lastly, why do bus manufacturers still persist in putting backwards-facing seats over the rear wheels when people are reluctant to use them and they are used as little more than footrests?
Seems to be because two pairs of two seats can be fitted in that space where is wouldn't be possible to fit as many seats in any other configuration. Downstairs seats are already limited in low floor designs.
 

RJ

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A few observations about bus design:
Firstly, most double decker buses in the UK no longer seem to have staircases that rise backwards instead of forwards; the most recent bus sold in the UK that seems to have this arrangement to my knowledge is the Ayats Bravo. I assume that backwards-rising staircases are less safe than regular forwards-rising stairs, as with the former design there is the risk that people descending on the stairs when the bus is in motion would be thrown further should the bus brake suddenly.
Secondly, I remember riding on former Arriva London DLAs in Leicestershire, and many of these had a staircase in the middle of the bus instead of over the front wheel immediately behind the driver's cab. I wonder if such an arrangement would have the potential to reduce antisocial behaviour onboard buses upstairs as there would be two shorter dead ends, as it were, rather than one long cul-de-sac.
Thirdly, I remember reading a while back that some disability campaigners wanted forwards-facing wheelchair spaces onboard buses as travelling backwards can make some people nauseous. The way I understand the design of these (as an able-bodied person) is that they face backwards to, once again, prevent injury should the bus stop suddenly, by preventing the wheelchair from moving through inertial forces. Is it possible to design a wheelchair space that allows the wheelchair user to sit forwards or even sideways, or are there any examples of this already in use?
Lastly, why do bus manufacturers still persist in putting backwards-facing seats over the rear wheels when people are reluctant to use them and they are used as little more than footrests?

Those centre staircase DLAs used to run on the 109 and 250 in South London. The design was not a deterrent to anti-social behaviour, all sorts of incidents happened on those routes.

That design perhaps questionably was based on the LT spec seen in step entrance vehicles which was well outdated for the accessibility age. It was quickly banished for new vehicles when it became apparent it was problematic. The staircase position wasted space which meant less capacity for passengers, dwell times increased because it was harder for boarding passengers to reach upstairs when there were standees downstairs and the positioning of the wheelchair bay was less convenient for wheelchair bound passengers than buses where the bay is opposite the centre doors.

As for the wheelchair bay, I’m pretty sure the PSVAR decrees the backrest must face backwards to prevent risk of tipping over if the bus brakes heavily. It’s a safety feature.
 

Tetchytyke

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The middle staircase didn’t make any difference to behaviour. Go North East had a batch of step-entrance Olympians in the early/mid 2000s with that configuration and it made no difference. With the advent of low floor buses it just wasted space.

Same with staircases, the low floor meant that the most sensible configuration was ascending rear-to-size so that the staircase was over the front wheel. With the straight stairs you can even sometimes get a seat under the stairs, as on older E400s, which wouldn’t be possible with the stairs the other way around. But even back in the day most staircases went rear-to-front, the last buses I can remember the other way around were the WYPTE Fleetlines which were new in the mid 1970s. Everything else went the ‘modern’ way around.

As for wheelchair spaces, it’s unavoidable as the safe way of travelling is with the person facing the rear. Stops them from being ejected from the chair in the event of sharp braking. People tend to ignore it, but it’s also why it’s recommended that pushchairs face the rear.

Finally, the rear seats facing backwards are wasted, and some operators have taken them out and put a table in instead, such as Transdev on the 36. But the most efficient arrangement is four seats over the wheel- two forward and two rearward facing- as otherwise you’d have to have transverse seats which are just as unpopular.
 

JonathanH

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transverse seats which are just as unpopular.
Are transverse seats actually unpopular? More so than rear facing seats? Isn't the issue the lack of headroom above them when placed over the highest point of the wheel arch?
 

Fin447

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Go-Ahead have a few batches with tip up seats on the rear facing seats to stop feet on seats
 

Mikey C

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What's interesting to me about staircases, is that for safety reasons London has insisted on straight staircases for 30? years, whereas elsewhere in the country the more compact curved staircase is allowed. Are there accident figures to justify either choice?
 

Teapot42

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A question that popped in to my head a few weeks back: are the staircases in a double decker an integral / structural part of the vehicle, or is it feasible to move them?

The main reason for asking is that on open top conversions it strikes me that the staircase is taking up prime seating at the front of the open deck, plus loss of usable space downstairs is much less of an issue with a vehicle where that deck isn't really going to see much use.

I'd imagine moving the staircase would add much more work that just chopping the roof off so I can imagine most operators wouldn't choose to do it anyway, but I'm more wondering if it *could* be done, or if the staircase is fixed once the bus is built.
 
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jp4712

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They’re not generally integral in the sense that the whole structural integrity of the vehicle depends on them, but they’re fiendishly difficult to move. These days they‘re one piece GRP mouldings that take a crane to install at the bodybuilder and much of the body is then built around them, so unlikely to be a simple proposition to move; plus these days, there tends to be a lot of wiring and control equipment etc in the under-stairs void, so again not for the faint-hearted.
 

JMcD99

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The thread on bus design reminded me of a question that popped in to my head a few weeks back. Are the staircases in a double decker an integral / structural part of the vehicle, or is it feasible to move them?

The main reason for asking is that on open top conversions it strikes me that the staircase is taking up prime seating at the front of the open deck, plus loss of usable space downstairs is much less of an issue with a vehicle where that deck isn't really going to see much use.

I'd imagine moving the staircase would add much more work that just chopping the roof off so I can imagine most operators wouldn't choose to do it anyway, but I'm more wondering if it *could* be done, or if the staircase is fixed once the bus is built.
I’d say it depends on the manufacturer. However, Nottingham City Transport’s driver training double decker fleet (Scania OmniDekkas) have had the staircases removed altogether.
 

Taunton

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Lastly, why do bus manufacturers still persist in putting backwards-facing seats over the rear wheels when people are reluctant to use them and they are used as little more than footrests?
I think you have answered your own question here, this is where the rear wheels protrude into the floorline, so they are covered over and it then becomes most efficient to put back-to-back seating on top there. One of the downsides of lower floors for access is the wheels, and indeed other mechanical parts, perforce protrude much more into the floorspace than was the case on older bus generations, where such elements were under the floor..
 

joieman

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What's interesting to me about staircases, is that for safety reasons London has insisted on straight staircases for 30? years, whereas elsewhere in the country the more compact curved staircase is allowed. Are there accident figures to justify either choice?
My mother fell down some curved stairs once. She also avoided going up the stairs of the Volvo B9TL/Optare Olympuses that Arriva in Leicestershire have lately sent away, because they were more difficult to climb. I would say straight staircases are indeed safer.

As for wheelchair spaces, it’s unavoidable as the safe way of travelling is with the person facing the rear. Stops them from being ejected from the chair in the event of sharp braking. People tend to ignore it, but it’s also why it’s recommended that pushchairs face the rear.
I personally thought thought it wasn't possible for this very reason.
Another interesting design choice is that on Arriva Leicestershire's most recent batch of ADL Enviro400MMCs, the 72-plates (4552-79), unlike the prior 16-plates (was 4501-35, now 4533-5), 67-plates (was 4536-46, now 4545-6) and 17-plates (4547-9 & 4551), were delivered without the pair of seats over the front wheel opposite the stairs. Allegedly the drivers didn't like having seats there.
 
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Leyland Bus

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The main reason for asking is that on open top conversions it strikes me that the staircase is taking up prime seating at the front of the open deck, plus loss of usable space downstairs is much less of an issue with a vehicle where that deck isn't really going to see much use.
Frankly, you're going to have a huge gap upstairs no matter where the stair case is located so why go to the trouble of moving it? You get no better view at the front than further back, certainly if it's fully open topped.
 

Teapot42

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Frankly, you're going to have a huge gap upstairs no matter where the stair case is located so why go to the trouble of moving it? You get no better view at the front than further back, certainly if it's fully open topped.
Not sure I'd agree - the view forwards can be as or more important than the view sideways. Also, many, especially away from seaside routes, are only partly open top. Of course that is another issue, the roof will prevent (or at least reduce) the rain running down the stairs.

I do get though that the hassle involved in moving will outweigh the benefits in the majority of cases. Which I guess leads to another question - on buses built as open top from new do they ever consider fitting the staircase in an alternative location?
 

Leyland Bus

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Not sure I'd agree - the view forwards can be as or more important than the view sideways. Also, many, especially away from seaside routes, are only partly open top. Of course that is another issue, the roof will prevent (or at least reduce) the rain running down the stairs.
By that notion, the best seats are the 1st pair right at the very front (unobstructed view) which are never hindered by a staircase...
 

Teapot42

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By that notion, the best seats are the 1st pair right at the very front (unobstructed view) which are never hindered by a staircase...
Yes, and the closer you can get to those seats, the better.

It really isn't hard to understand...
 

Mikey C

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The partial roof covers the front seats, so those wanting the best view out will presumably prefer to sit further back anyway.
 

Teapot42

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The partial roof covers the front seats, so those wanting the best view out will presumably prefer to sit further back anyway.
I think it's horses for courses. I find rows 2 and 3, even 4 back on the nearside give nearly as good a view forward as the fronts, and certainly better than those further back where the roof obscures the view somewhat.

Bit academic though as my question has been answered and it's obviously not economically viable to move the stairs.
 

Lewisham2221

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A forward facing wheelchair space would require restraints to prevent the wheelchair tipping or moving under heavy braking. This is obviously less than ideal for service work.

Wright's somehow managed to fit all forward facing seats over the rear wheel arches on Eclipse bodies B7RLE's. They were awful though, as the wheel arch formed the floor underneath the seat and footspace, meaning the whole seat was effectively just a couple of inches off the floor so your knees were around your chin
 

joieman

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A forward facing wheelchair space would require restraints to prevent the wheelchair tipping or moving under heavy braking. This is obviously less than ideal for service work.

Wright's somehow managed to fit all forward facing seats over the rear wheel arches on Eclipse bodies B7RLE's. They were awful though, as the wheel arch formed the floor underneath the seat and footspace, meaning the whole seat was effectively just a couple of inches off the floor so your knees were around your chin
I can attest that the ADL E200MMC and the Optare Versa also have this problem. I think that turning that row around to face backwards or, even better, fitting transverse seats over the wheel arches, would be a good idea. Trentbarton don't seem to be that fussed about losing a seat or two as a while back they took one seat out of the last row of seats at the back of their MMCs. I suppose wheel arches will forever be a designer's nightmare.
 

computerSaysNo

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I can attest that the ADL E200MMC and the Optare Versa also have this problem. I think that turning that row around to face backwards or, even better, fitting transverse seats over the wheel arches, would be a good idea. Trentbarton don't seem to be that fussed about losing a seat or two as a while back they took one seat out of the last row of seats at the back of their MMCs. I suppose wheel arches will forever be a designer's nightmare.
I think having rearward facing seats and a little table would be a good idea and would help draw families in as they could then all sit together.
 

joieman

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I think having rearward facing seats and a little table would be a good idea and would help draw families in as they could then all sit together.
Yes, although in most cases I think that for this purpose they would be better towards the middle of the bus rather than the back. For instance, some double-decker buses such as Arriva Leicestershire's 58/09-plate ADL Enviro400s recently shipped in from Liverpool have the penultimate row of seats upstairs facing backwards, and there are no wheel arches to deal with there. Notts+Derby's East Lancs Nordics and some of Nottingham City Transport's former Scania Omnidekkas also have this unusual seating arrangement. If I were to put a backwards facing row of seats upstairs, it would be toward the middle of the bus, behind the stairs.
 

computerSaysNo

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Yes, although in most cases I think that for this purpose they would be better towards the middle of the bus rather than the back. For instance, some double-decker buses such as Arriva Leicestershire's 58/09-plate ADL Enviro400s recently shipped in from Liverpool have the penultimate row of seats upstairs facing backwards, and there are no wheel arches to deal with there. Notts+Derby's East Lancs Nordics and some of Nottingham City Transport's former Scania Omnidekkas also have this unusual seating arrangement. If I were to put a backwards facing row of seats upstairs, it would be toward the middle of the bus, behind the stairs.
I agree but that wouldn't solve the issue we're talking about which is the rear wheel arches. ;)
 

Thames99

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In Paris a lot of single deck buses have seats at the back in a sort of horseshoe shape with rear facing sections over the wheel arches. This makes for a very sociable space and is popular particularly with families. It seems a good solution to providing seats in an awkward area. This is an older version:

More recent buses have something similar but extending round over the wheels. Often part of the space on one side is not available as it is boxed in for the engine or other mechanical bits.
 

WibbleWobble

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In Paris a lot of single deck buses have seats at the back in a sort of horseshoe shape with rear facing sections over the wheel arches. This makes for a very sociable space and is popular particularly with families. It seems a good solution to providing seats in an awkward area. This is an older version:

More recent buses have something similar but extending round over the wheels. Often part of the space on one side is not available as it is boxed in for the engine or other mechanical bits.
It's been tried over here - Swindon for example. From opinions I've heard (verbally), I don't believe it is that popular.
 

JD2168

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Yes, although in most cases I think that for this purpose they would be better towards the middle of the bus rather than the back. For instance, some double-decker buses such as Arriva Leicestershire's 58/09-plate ADL Enviro400s recently shipped in from Liverpool have the penultimate row of seats upstairs facing backwards, and there are no wheel arches to deal with there. Notts+Derby's East Lancs Nordics and some of Nottingham City Transport's former Scania Omnidekkas also have this unusual seating arrangement. If I were to put a backwards facing row of seats upstairs, it would be toward the middle of the bus, behind the stairs.

With the back seats facing each other upstairs that is a common feature on Stagecoach buses until around 2020, plus a lot of ex London Presidents First ran had facing seats upstairs. Main problem with them is that people out there feet on them.
 

joieman

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With the back seats facing each other upstairs that is a common feature on Stagecoach buses until around 2020, plus a lot of ex London Presidents First ran had facing seats upstairs. Main problem with them is that people out there feet on them.
Yes, people would rather sit forwards and people would rather use the backwards-facing seats as footrests!
 

Mikey C

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With the back seats facing each other upstairs that is a common feature on Stagecoach buses until around 2020, plus a lot of ex London Presidents First ran had facing seats upstairs. Main problem with them is that people out there feet on them.
I never understood why you would choose to fit backwards seats upstairs, especially at the back where the "yoof" like to congregate.
 

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