I think it is exactly the reason why - better visibility of the back seats and less likely to vandalise/burn the seat backs. It’s easier to replace seat covers than potentially risk burning the bus down when the “yoof” play with lighters.
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Bus design
- Thread starter joieman
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I think it is exactly the reason why - better visibility of the back seats and less likely to vandalise/burn the seat backs. It’s easier to replace seat covers than potentially risk burning the bus down when the “yoof” play with lighters.
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
If I'm remembering right, the First "ftr" bendies had something similar to this at the rear. Seemed to be popular with families and groups, though I only ever used them occasionally so it isn't a large sample size.
On the staircase location question, I'd always assumed that it related to whether the bus was built as dual-door. Going back a few years dual-door buses transferred from London and converted to single-door would often have the staircase further back, in line with where the second door used to be.
In regards to the stairs and the equipment that is stored under them, I wish ADL would work to resolve the issue where the front offside seats are just basic pads rather than a proper seat
Looks odd when it’s a highly specced bus with luxury seating and that offside seat is so basic
On B7TLs you have the issue where you get a proper seat but the leg room only fits a size 6 shoe
Looks odd when it’s a highly specced bus with luxury seating and that offside seat is so basic
On B7TLs you have the issue where you get a proper seat but the leg room only fits a size 6 shoe
joieman
Member
I couldn't agree more with both!
Surely it would be better to have the seats all forward, even with the wheel arch issue. I know the leg room is bad but you'd be stupid to sit there if there's other available seats. If they're the last seats on the bus, I'd much rather have that problem than sitting facing a random near the back of the bus. The Pulsars with Arriva with the all forward seating is much superior to the Commander buses which had bays of 4 imo which are both based on the same chassis. No-one ever sat on the backwards seats on those whenever I used them.
Edit: After posting this, I'm starting to question myself whether the Pulsars have a hump, at all, anyone confirm? I don't think they do?
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Hairy Airey
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This discussion reminds me of my own pedantry. We say to people we are "on the bus" but that's only possible upstairs on an open top bus. Everyone else is "in the bus". Same goes for the announcement "passing through train" rather than "passing along the train". As you can imagine I am a barrel of laughs at parties!
joieman
Member
I rode on a Pulsar 2 this morning and I can confirm that there is no visible hump in the floor, only a sunken gangway.
From memory, the Wright Eclipse Urban also doesn't have a visible hump, whereas the Scania L94UB Wright Solars do have a row of backwards-facing seats, and therefore by inference, a hump on the interior. I suppose most of the buses that don't have humps get away with it because they are single deckers, and usually on a heavyweight chassis, so are often relatively tall. For instance, the Scania Omnilink is substantially taller than the Omnicity, and therefore has no visible wheel hump, leading to no backwards seats.
I must now mention the Mercedes-Benz Citaro O530, specifically of Kinchbus, which had five but now have only two left. On the nearside, over the wheel, there was a pair of backwards-facing seats, one of which was mounted higher than the other, but was shorter than the aisle seat, although the backrests were in some examples switched around so that the window seat looked very much higher than the aisle seat! Behind that is a row of three longitudinal seats. On the offside is one pair of backwards-facing seats, again over the wheel, followed by another pair of backwards facing seats, and then a pair of forwards-facing seats in front of the engine compartment. At the very back is a row of four seats, offset to the nearside due to the engine compartment on the right, which had a luggage rack on top. Truly bizarre.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The Citaro used to have some weird seating arrangements, the ones Go North East had were utterly bizarre. Even the older ones here are a bit odd, with the near side window seats at the back being higher than the aisle seat next to them. Also with that luggage rack on the rear offside.
Newer version of the Citaro are much more sensible, the 2020 ones we have here have pretty much a ‘normal’ seating arrangement, other than the boxed in bit at the back on the near side.
Warrington have a batch of E200s with a similar arrangement: https://www.alexander-dennis.com/wa...-have-customers-grinning-like-a-cheshire-cat/
My opinion is that it is rubbish. Very uncomfortable.
joieman
Member
Another little annoying thing: window pillars that don't line up. On the longest ADL Enviro200MMCs, as one goes backwards, there is a full size window and then a fire exit on the offside, but on the nearside the half window precedes the full size window. But the new Wright Streetdeck Electroliners are something else for this. Not only don't the pillars of the windows downstairs line up with those of the upstairs windows, but the pillars of the upstairs windows on the offside also don't line up with those on the nearside!
Thanks for confirming, I had a feeling they didn't after posting it hence the last minute edit.
The Kinchbus layout there sounds identical to the ones which GoNorthEast (as mentioned after), agreed it was a very bizarre layout - almost as whoever designed it had just come out of the pub. The GoNorthEast ones were made even worse by having e-leather in the end so you just ended up sliding off.
Speaking of wheel arches, I was never keen on the two seats which were immediately behind the driver on the Omnicity's. Very hard to get any form of grip on the seat away from the window since it overhung the step, never forget seeing a kid fall off and face plant the floor once and I should've had sympathy but he was being a little horror running around.
I've never been on an example like it, but those windows on the roof seem a horrid idea. Buses are hot enough in the summer, as it it, without turning it into a greenhouse. Complete gimmick like the seats around the back aswell. I'd be very surprised if someone decides that they're now going to use a bus because of either.
The MCV eVoRa has a solution to the rear seats that I can't say I'm that keen on. As you can see from this photo, the seat rise in several tiers as you get further back. While this means you can have seats on top of the rear wheel arches, it also means the back few rows are so high that you are having to bend down to see out the side windoes and have pretty much zero forward view. It might look open but it actually feels rather cramped.
joieman
Member
Yeah, after a point it just becomes rather extreme. Similar thing happens with the Irizar i3. You're already halfway to a coach.
I do feel somewhat insecure in those seats myself.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Back in the late 90s First had a load of Scanias with Wright Floline bodies that were the same. The back seat felt like you were sat on a cliff edge, and you couldn’t see a thing.
Probably better than the solution in the Dennis MPD, especially with Plaxton bodywork, where you just had the wheel arch in the way and you had to sit with your knees round your ears.
We have them on our Streetdecks and they’re actually not too bad. Good in winter as it lets more light into the cabin and in summer it isn’t really any hotter than the sun shining on the metal all day.
Mikey C
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The rear of the B5LH lower deck is a bit compromised when compared with the ADL and Wright integral hybrid double deckers with seats at various levels and a rather squashed in half back seat.
That is similar to the Scania Enviro 300s Stagecoach have; the furthest back seats are that high up that you have to bend down to see through the window properly. Then there is also the odd window design on the sides with the half windows.
On the midi StreetLites, after the emergency exit you have the smallest window imaginable that is barely viewable through.
That front seat upstairs on ADLs does feel like a bit of an economy seat, especially if it’s got high backed seats & they are the only low backed versions.
It is a similar design to the B7L First had which were terrible, the heat & noise you got off the engine in that area was not pleasant particularly in the summer. You also had facing seats partway down the bus making the back unwelcoming for some passengers.
Thankfully this was ended when the B7 RLE was introduced.
I’ll never forget being on First 60888 when the bus went over a speed bump, the bodywork went one way with the seat going another way, you could see through to the wheel & daylight below.
computerSaysNo
Established Member
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I must admit, I consider the Eclipse Urban to be a reasonably poor design as, like you've said, if you sit at the back you have to bend down to see out the window. The standard Enviro300s and Streetlites don't have that issue as the seats aren't as high up, and I don't think that modern Evora has that issue as the top edge of the window is much higher up/closer to the ceiling.
joieman
Member
That sounds incredibly disconcerting!
Hyebone
Member
Here's a photo I took of this arrangement during one of my journeys from Chesterfield to Liverpool that took me via Manchester airport and Warrington. It doesn't even solve the issue with the wheel arch on the nearside.
During the entire X5 journey, the vehicle filled up nicely however only one passenger dared tackle the sofa... a rather unsociable gentleman; perhaps scaring off any potential users.
I've only travelled on one, with Hulleys, but I did not find the seats towards the back pleasant. That said, I'm fairly tall so it would affect me more than maybe others. It's awkward as I try and go towards the back to leave the seats further forwards for less able passengers and those with lots of bags, but at the same time I'm not the best traveller and that seat made me feel a little travelsick the view was so awkward.
Hyebone
Member
I've done several journeys on vehicle 12 (never 21 somehow) and I get exactly what you mean, I basically have to sit sideways!
I can't offer my opinion on any other Evoras since I don't think i've been on any except BV73 NVH.
One particular seat I prefer on any single-decker vehicle is the escape row due to the bonus legroom. On older vehicles (Such as older Enviro300s MAN/Integral or otherwise) the escape door is at the rear, which I prefer, however (I think some sort of regulation was brought into effect, correct me if I'm wrong) newer vehicles tend to have them more towards the centre of the vehicle. I prefer not to have people sat above me per se, if you get what I mean? As such, my preferred seat on an Enviro200 MMC tends to be the one above the escape row due to slightly more legroom than standard, and as a bonus on some high-spec vehicles there is often a platform to rest mobile devices.
I'm the opposite, only been on 21 and not yet sampled 12.
Definitely agree about escape rows. I'm not sure if it was a thing in the past, but I've wondered if buses intended for longer distance services have the same row spacing as those for shorter distances? One reason I didn't sample the X98/99 is that I didn't fancy being cramped in to a bus seat for 3 hours or more. We are getting taller on average, but seat spacing doesn't seem to be changing to reflect that. Maybe the answer is simple because for most operators buses are as likely to be on an short distance service as a longer one, and maybe that passenger comfort comes second to capacity.
In an ideal world I think long distance services would have 2+1 seating with a decent pitch, but I can't see any operator going for that. As an aside, my wife mentioned that in Taiwan there is so much competition between operators in some areas that they run coaches 1+1 to attract passengers with better comfort on the longer routes.
The escape row on the classic E200 seems to vary. The Stagecoach ones we get on the 90 are usually towards the middle and I recall the Mellor EV I rode in Cambridge was likewise as I remember the door being the only (but major) source of rattling. I wonder if the cut-off point was around 11-12 reg, as YX11AEN has it at the back, but YX12DHN has the mid door.
Was the issue that the escape door at the back could not be accessed by less abled passengers, so it now has to be in the low floor section?
Hyebone
Member
I'm a Chesterfield local myself, the 90 tends to see the E200s frequently due to the "slight obstacle" of a low bridge in Barrow Hill.
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From what I've seen, 36071(Dart), 36413 and 36415 are our only E200s with the rear escape door, those being SN56 and YN11 respectively. 36444 onwards (being YN61 plates) all have middle escape doors
Unsure on what the regulation was but there was a definitely a change around 2011/12. It was the same time that number plates were banned from being behind glass and they had to have the little orange lights down the side of the buses.
joieman
Member
I must say that the placement of number plates was rather bizarre in some instances. The Wright Eclipse/Pulsar Gemini usually has it beneath the upstairs window, and as a result I found that they were often obscured by dirt.
Yeah agreed, the original Enviro 400's were just as bad being to the left of the back destination display.
The first batch of the ones in the North East has it and it's barely readable when it's clean, never mind dirty, as the glass is heavily tinted.
One oddity for rear facing seats were the MAN Mylleniums that Stagecoach inherited from Yorkshire Traction. On the offside at the rear was facing seats where the emergency exit door was whilst on the other side the seats were all forward facing.
With regards number plate placement the B7L’s First had were prone to being very dirty & dimly lit at the rear where they were behind the glass. On the B7RLE versions it seems to be much better lit & visible.
The Gemini number plate placement at the top left corner I always thought was a bit strange, a problem solved when the B9TL was introduced as it moved to the bottom of the bus.
The least visible number plates I notice these days are on the Scania Omnicity double deckers, it seems very small & poorly visible even on a bright day in the summer months.
With regards number plate placement the B7L’s First had were prone to being very dirty & dimly lit at the rear where they were behind the glass. On the B7RLE versions it seems to be much better lit & visible.
The Gemini number plate placement at the top left corner I always thought was a bit strange, a problem solved when the B9TL was introduced as it moved to the bottom of the bus.
The least visible number plates I notice these days are on the Scania Omnicity double deckers, it seems very small & poorly visible even on a bright day in the summer months.
On a different note, I wonder if buses are unnecessarily expensive are as they are produced on a bespoke basis with companies wanting their own specifications. Would they be notably cheaper to buy if manufacturers could make savings by offering a number of standard designs that could be produced at scale?
Like the Leyland National? You could have it in any colour you liked, provided it was National green or red
