Bus Fires

[GusB]

"Thermal incidents" have cropped up quite regularly on the forum and I think it would be fair to say that the Stagecoach subsidiaries which operate in my corner of the world have had more than their fare share of fires. Casting my mind back to when I was a kid and a regular bus user, I don't remember many breakdowns, let alone fires, although they weren't completely unheard of.

Route one had an interesting article today:

Bus fires: Reporting and maintenance key to prevention, writes DVSA

An investigation by DVSA has revealed the necessity of prompt reporting and thorough maintenance in the prevention of bus fires.

www.route-one.net

A recent investigation by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) has revealed the necessity of prompt reporting and thorough maintenance in the prevention of bus fires.

DVSA’s study, which analysed incidents reported between 2020 and 2022, offers insights and actionable lessons for the coach and bus industry.

The study identified significant delays and deficiencies in reporting incidents of bus fires. Operators are legally required to report vehicle fires, but DVSA says many reports reached it long after the event, with incomplete or inaccurate details, and often without a root cause investigation.

The agency’s MoT Scheme Manager, Ian Bartlett, recognised the pressures faced by the industry but emphasised the Agency’s role in improving bus safety, particularly the value of early reporting in understanding the sequence of events leading to a fire.

“At DVSA, we want to work with you to improve bus safety and as part of that we have a responsibility to investigate bus fires and what can be done to prevent them,” he writes. “So we’re asking bus operators to report the incident to us as soon as possible after it has taken place.”

Mr Bartlett further highlights the importance of drivers promptly responding to vehicle warning lights. “Bus operators must make sure their drivers understand the warning system on a vehicle before they start any journey – and get the right advice from the depot when this is reported,” he says.

The study also assessed engine bay temperatures to identify potential root causes for fires. Testing occurred under various conditions and locations, including different load capacities and in both urban and rural areas. However, no evidence was found linking the design or manufacture of buses or their parts to fires.

Mr Bartlett stresses the vital role of thorough and regular maintenance in ensuring the safe operation of buses. To prevent overheating and subsequent fire risks, he recommends that operators:

• Replace components with others of the correct specification
• Ensure that any repair is carried out in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendation
• Carry out maintenance inspections at the stated intervals
• Correctly identify and repair faults or issues immediately
• Replace heat shields and check cables and fuel lines are correctly routed.

Mr Bartlett acknowledges the commendable handling of fire incidents by drivers and the effective evacuation of passengers during these incidents. He advises operators to ensure their drivers are properly trained, understand vehicle warning systems, and are aware of bus evacuation procedures.

DVSA says it is keen to continue its collaborative work with operators and drivers to improve the safety and reliability of bus services. Mr Bartlett invites the industry to review the study findings and provide feedback to facilitate a safer future for all bus services. “This way, we can help you address issues and make sure that together we provide safe bus services for all,” he concludes.

There have been a few hints in certain threads that some manufacturers suffer more than others, but the article clearly says:

However, no evidence was found linking the design or manufacture of buses or their parts to fires.

So, where does the blame lie? Is it a lack of driver training, poor maintenance or an inherent design flaw in modern buses? I suspect it's probably a combination, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[150249]

I'm not a knowledgeable trained expert or anything but its not hard to notice that a lot of E400s in Scotland have blown up

 

[GusB]

I'm not a knowledgeable trained expert or anything but its not hard to notice that a lot of E400s in Scotland have blown up

It's not caused by excessively hot weather, I can assure you!

 

[markymark2000]

So, where does the blame lie? Is it a lack of driver training, poor maintenance or an inherent design flaw in modern buses? I suspect it's probably a combination, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

The DVSA investigation (which is linked in the article) provides the answers that you require.

Based on the study of reports sent to DVSA and the evidence found in the engine bay temperature assessment study, DVSA has found that:

• there is evidence that repairs have not been carried out correctly, which have led to vehicle fires
• drivers have continued driving vehicles when warning systems have advised of high temperatures

Another bit which is interesting is the 'driver influences'

Drivers’ influences: findings​

DVSA found that:

• drivers have driven vehicles with warning systems telling them not to
• drivers have driven vehicles under instruction from the depot with warning systems telling them not to
• drivers have not always been clear on the evacuation procedures for the particular vehicle they are driving
• drivers may not take the correct action at the start of a thermal incident
• very rarely is the driver interviewed to understand the events leading to a thermal incident

Of course why are drivers driving vehicles when warnings tell them not to? Well in some cases, this is partly due to some buses loving to throw up faults and the fault then goes away if you keep driving so I would say that some drivers keep going because some faults clear if you keep driving. For depots to give the wrong instruction though is interesting.
Why are drivers not clear on the evacuation process of their vehicle? Shouldn't this be under vehicle familiarisation?

Finally, in this section and further down in the reporting procedures, it says that generally no investigation is done. That is bonkers as surely that is something that you want to do. Work out what went wrong to prevent it happening again. Or are companies not willing to do an investigation because they know that it would lead to a lot of blame being on them and some of their procedures? I think that the DVSA need to tighten up their fire reporting and start to demand some of the answers (which will then force operators to do some investigating to get some answers).

 

[stuu]

So, where does the blame lie? Is it a lack of driver training, poor maintenance or an inherent design flaw in modern buses? I suspect it's probably a combination, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I would also suggest that now news of any incident spreads a lot further and faster than in the past, so you will hear about more than you would have done

 

[Geordie driver]

Drivers are routinely told to keep going with warning lights activated, it's known as bus drivers bingo. Diagonal line and you get a prize.

It not unknown for maintenance staff to disable a warning, I once seized an engine on a bus which had it's low water warning disabled. 22k to fix I was told, not sure how true that is.

I think it's fair to say that could have easily resulted in a conflagration.

One would have assumed with virtually no smoking on buses now that fires would have gone down now, not up.

 

[RT4038]

"Thermal incidents" have cropped up quite regularly on the forum and I think it would be fair to say that the Stagecoach subsidiaries which operate in my corner of the world have had more than their fare share of fires. Casting my mind back to when I was a kid and a regular bus user, I don't remember many breakdowns, let alone fires, although they weren't completely unheard of.

Route one had an interesting article today:

Bus fires: Reporting and maintenance key to prevention, writes DVSA

An investigation by DVSA has revealed the necessity of prompt reporting and thorough maintenance in the prevention of bus fires.

www.route-one.net

There have been a few hints in certain threads that some manufacturers suffer more than others, but the article clearly says:



So, where does the blame lie? Is it a lack of driver training, poor maintenance or an inherent design flaw in modern buses? I suspect it's probably a combination, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I understand the root is mainly due to the emission reductions of newer engines. In order to reduce emissions, the engines have to burn the fuel more efficiently. In order to burn the fuel more efficiently they need to run hotter. Each successive emission regulation tightening up has meant hotter and hotter engines, to the point where they are now mobile furnaces. Hotter running engines run a greater risk of setting alight their surroundings, as we see.

Bus fires in the past were generally either running with inner flat tyre flat or fault/misuse (not necessarily by the driver at the time) of semi automatic gearboxes and associated fluid flywheel.

I think it is a bit of rose tinted spectacles about the quantity of broken down buses - it is just the reasons for breakdowns have changed (rarely now mechanical failure/fuel starvation/minor electrical 'won't start' etc - now mostly about electronic problems and complex fuel system stuff that cannot be fixed at the roadside but requires a tow).

 

[Geordie driver]

From the OPs original quote,

”Mr Bartlett stresses the vital role of thorough and regular maintenance in ensuring the safe operation of buses. To prevent overheating and subsequent fire risks, he recommends that operators:

Replace components with others of the correct specification
Ensure that any repair is carried out in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendation
Carry out maintenance inspections at the stated intervals
Correctly identify and repair faults or issues immediately
Replace heat shields and check cables and fuel lines are correctly routed.".

Bus companies need to be told this by the DVSA?!! Imagine if you owned a car and knew the garage responsible for its maintenance was not doing the above.

Look after your vehicle's as you are supposed to in order to prevent fires?

It defies belief. Unless you know the industry.

 

[RT4038]

From the OPs original quote,

”Mr Bartlett stresses the vital role of thorough and regular maintenance in ensuring the safe operation of buses. To prevent overheating and subsequent fire risks, he recommends that operators:

Replace components with others of the correct specification
Ensure that any repair is carried out in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendation
Carry out maintenance inspections at the stated intervals
Correctly identify and repair faults or issues immediately
Replace heat shields and check cables and fuel lines are correctly routed.".

Bus companies need to be told this by the DVSA?!! Imagine if you owned a car and knew the garage responsible for its maintenance was not doing the above.

Look after your vehicle's as you are supposed to in order to prevent fires?

It defies belief. Unless you know the industry.

I am sure a lot of people's cars are not repaired in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations, and/or have maintenance inspections at the stated intervals and/or have correctly identified and repaired faults or issues immediately.

As much as I am sure it is necessary to remind bus operators about these things, as there will always be the temptation to cut corners in the mechanics/maintenance department, as there is amongst the drivers/operating department.

 

[Geordie driver]

I am sure a lot of people's cars are not repaired in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations, and/or have maintenance inspections at the stated intervals and/or have correctly identified and repaired faults or issues immediately.

As much as I am sure it is necessary to remind bus operators about these things, as there will always be the temptation to cut corners in the mechanics/maintenance department, as there is amongst the drivers/operating department.

I mentioned the garage responsible for repairing them, if you choose to cut corners on your own car, that's up to you, but it's not the way to run an industry.

You would be happy if the guy that you paid to maintain your vehicle took out heat shields, failed to do regular inspections, used incorrect parts, failed to route fuel lines correctly?

It's only necessary to remind them because they have chosen not to do it. Cutting corners on safety isn't an option.

These guys are meant to be professionals.

I expect safe PCV vehicles as the bare minimum, not some vague hope, no worries if you can't provide it.

People's kids are getting on these vehicles this morning, warning light bingo flashing away.

The temptation to cut corners is why we have the DVSA and the traffic commissioner in what used to be a highly regulated industry.

 

[RT4038]

I mentioned the garage responsible for repairing them, if you choose to cut corners on your own car, that's up to you, but it's not the way to run an industry.

You are right, but my experience of putting cars into a garage is for the servicing to be done by apprentices, barely checked on if at all ..... and lots of issues found later showing that the servicing couldn't have been done properly.

You would be happy if the guy that you paid to maintain your vehicle took out heat shields, failed to do regular inspections, used incorrect parts, failed to route fuel lines correctly?

It's only necessary to remind them because they have chosen not to do it. Cutting corners on safety isn't an option.

These guys are meant to be professionals.

I expect safe PCV vehicles as the bare minimum, not some vague hope, no worries if you can't provide it.

All quite right, and the DVSA needs to weed out the perpetrators.

People's kids are getting on these vehicles this morning, warning light bingo flashing away.

The temptation to cut corners is why we have the DVSA and the traffic commissioner in what used to be a highly regulated industry.

I think there is a little rose tinted view here. As I recall (in the 1970s), the highly regulated industry was no more regulated in the maintenance field than it is today, in fact probably less then, and the COF (certificate of fitness) system allowed PSVs to get a lot shabbier than would be permitted today. In many areas (those with recruiting problems, which was quite a bit of the country) general maintenance was pretty poor in the highly regulated companies, and there was as much, if not more, dubious practice in smaller operators than now. The difference then was that buses were less complicated, ran at lower speeds and simply didn't have many or any warning lights to flash away. Following manufacturers recommendations and using components of the right specification was a bit of a myth (if that part was obtainable at all....).

That is not to say that standards don't need to improve, which clearly they do, and perhaps also designs are a bit at fault here also. However, the past is a different place and I am not sure things were so rosy there either! [There wasn't heat shields to leave off then.....]