Bus from West Ealing - West Ruislip

[miklcct]

I have just noticed from the timetable that the bus service departing 11:17 Wednesday from West Ealing to West Ruislip is listed as a "service bus", instead of a rail replacement bus.

To my understanding, the term "service bus" is used on public bus services, which are not part of National Rail but are included in the National Rail timetable, mainly because there are through ticketing, for example, RailAir services.

Why isn't this West Ealing to West Ruislip bus a rail replacement bus instead?

 

[Nora93]

Probably because it’s a LTP permanent bus, much like the 99 from Tilbury Town to Tilbury Riverside rather than an STP rail replacement bus.

 

[Clarence Yard]

You don’t provide rail replacement buses if an existing frequent bus service serves the entire rail route. West Ealing to Greenford is a very long standing example of this and rail tickets are always accepted on the buses if the trains are not running.

 

[miklcct]

Probably because it’s a LTP permanent bus, much like the 99 from Tilbury Town to Tilbury Riverside rather than an STP rail replacement bus.

The Sunday 02:00 service from Euston to Milton Keynes is an example of LTP rail replacement bus - that train service has been permanently replaced by a bus, similar to the Wednesday 11:17 service from West Ealing to West Ruislip.

The bus from Tilbury Town to Tilbury Riverside is a local bus 99. It is run by a bus operator and regulated as a local bus, which is not true for a rail replacement bus. This distinction is very important as service buses are not part of National Rail network - the provision of NRCoT won't necessarily apply to it, in regard to e.g. right over a delay, especially when separate tickets are used.

 

[mathstrains19]

You don’t provide rail replacement buses if an existing frequent bus service serves the entire rail route. West Ealing to Greenford is a very long standing example of this and rail tickets are always accepted on the buses if the trains are not running.

Presumably this only happens if the bus route has capacity to take on the extra train passengers? In this case I'd assume it definitely does considering the train likely has only a small volume of passengers travelling.

 

[Roger1973]

The rules for what has to be registered as a local bus service is that there is an exemption for "Substitution services for railway services which have been temporarily interrupted"

I'm not sure there has been a test case to establish just how 'temporary' the interruption can be, but I would have thought it would rule out a long term arrangement.

That applies outside London, the explanatory note for London Local Service Permits says "rail replacement services are not deemed to be London local services." - although it doesn't specifically say you can't make them local services if you feel so inclined and TFL agree.

There may also be advantages to the operator in claiming bus service operator grant (I've never really understood this and have even less idea how it works in London) if it's a registered service.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably this only happens if the bus route has capacity to take on the extra train passengers? In this case I'd assume it definitely does considering the train likely has only a small volume of passengers travelling.

It's really saying the quiet part out loud. It'd be far better to abandon the rail service permanently and bung some money to TfL to keep through rail tickets accepted on London Buses on a permanent basis.

No doubt there'd be howls and screeches of protest at this but realistically there would be hardly anyone affected negatively.

However, I don't actually think this has anything to do with the rail replacement bus. That doesn't go to Greenford line stations.

 

[Haywain]

It'd be far better to abandon the rail service permanently and bung some money to TfL to keep through rail tickets accepted on London Buses on a permanent basis.

I'm a bit puzzled why there is even a need fora bus service when there are acceptable alternative rail services covering the whole journey (or am I missing something?).

 

[miklcct]

It'd be far better to abandon the rail service permanently and bung some money to TfL to keep through rail tickets accepted on London Buses on a permanent basis.

No need for that. Making the relevant section of the Central line (Greenford - West Ealing) interavailable is enough to bin the service.

 

[Sunil_P]

Bah! You can do West Ealing to South Ruislip by rail:

West Ealing to Greenford on GWR
Greenford to South Ruislip on LUL

Cross-platform interchange as well

 

[Taunton]

The whole history of this is bizarre. As far as I understand it the operation is a "replacement" for the element of the Paddington to Banbury main line south of West Ruislip, once all services ran from Marylebone. The only passenger train on this section for many years was at about 1740 from Paddington, first stop High Wycombe. Quite how a once-weekly train from West Ealing to West Ruislip is some legal substitution for this, let alone a bus service between these same points, passes all understanding.

Paddington never had any services on this line which stopped within London since, I believe, the 1940s, when the Central Line opened out to West Ruislip.

 

[Starmill]

Bah! You can do West Ealing to South Ruislip by rail:

West Ealing to Greenford on GWR
Greenford to South Ruislip on LUL

Cross-platform interchange as well

Indeed you can, but I don't think you can use a train ticket for that. I'm not sure why anyone would want to but there you go. Maybe some people who have free Chiltern passes have made the pilgrimage to use the bus for free?

I'm a bit puzzled why there is even a need fora bus service when there are acceptable alternative rail services covering the whole journey (or am I missing something?).

As the service runs just once a week and only in one direction I assume it's because there's no passenger train left over that section of line. It's a fiction but that's life. The Kensington - Ealing one ran for many years didn't it.

Quite how a once-weekly train from West Ealing to West Ruislip is some legal substitution for this, let alone a bus service between these same points, passes all understanding.

It's a work of fiction yes. No doubt Chiltern received legal advice that they would be obliged to cover this so they do, and this is the cheapest option.

 

[Watershed]

Indeed you can, but I don't think you can use a train ticket for that

I think you can just use a point to point single/return? There is a fixed Tube link between Greenford and South Ruislip in the RDG data feed, which retail sites seem happy to use to sell a point to point fare even without U Zone or Maltese cross validity.

 

[Starmill]

No need for that. Making the relevant section of the Central line (Greenford - West Ealing) interavailable is enough to bin the service.

The Central line doesn't go to anywhere near Drayton Green or Castle Bar Park. Nor really even West Ealing.

 

[miklcct]

The Central line doesn't go to anywhere near Drayton Green or Castle Bar Park. Nor really even West Ealing.

Sorry, meant Greenford - West Ruislip

 

[Sunil_P]

The Central line doesn't go to anywhere near Drayton Green or Castle Bar Park. Nor really even West Ealing.

Hmmm... Add Fourth Rail from the bay at Greenford to the bay at West Ealing...

 

[BrianW]

I have just noticed from the timetable that the bus service departing 11:17 Wednesday from West Ealing to West Ruislip is listed as a "service bus", instead of a rail replacement bus.

To my understanding, the term "service bus" is used on public bus services, which are not part of National Rail but are included in the National Rail timetable, mainly because there are through ticketing, for example, RailAir services.

Why isn't this West Ealing to West Ruislip bus a rail replacement bus instead?

Because there is NO 'rail' service between West Ealing and West Ruislip; it's rail from West Ealing to Greenford, then a 'Central Line 'tube' Greenford to West Ruislip?

Probably because it’s a LTP permanent bus, much like the 99 from Tilbury Town to Tilbury Riverside rather than an STP rail replacement bus.

What are LTP and STP please?

I think maybe some different 'issues' have got caught up in this thread. What has got it started just now?

There was a bus run over part to 'replace' the former North-South service that had run via Kensington Olympia between Manchester and Brighton/ Dover (variations over time); and a 'parliamantary' train betwewen West Ruislip/ High Wycombe and Paddington when the service to Paddington was 'diverted' to Marylebone.

The value (social or otherwise) of the West Ealing to Greenford service is another matter, which I imagine was considered at the time of 'cutting back to a bay platform at West Ealing when the Elizabeth Line was conceived.

Crayonists would have been attracted to the possibility of linking the West Ruislip and Ealing Broadway branches of the Central Line via a loop superseding the existing 'rail' line.

'Regular' TfL buses connect Ealing Broadway and West Ealing with Greenford Broadway (passing the intermediate stations at some distance) and thence to Ruislip (not that close to South Ruislip or West Ruislip); a change of bus is required at Greenford Broadway to reach Greenford Station.

Not sure I'm helping- just what is the issue/ problem?

 

[Sunil_P]

Because there is NO 'rail' service between West Ealing and West Ruislip; it's rail from West Ealing to Greenford, then a 'Central Line 'tube' Greenford to West Ruislip?

Central line runs on "rails" last time I checked...

 

[BrianW]

Central line runs on "rails" last time I checked...

Thank you Sunil for trying to help me. Perhaps there's a more standard terminology I could use to differentiate what people would have understood as BR, ie not London Underground. It has become more complicated in my head by TfL, Elizabeth Line etc. Would 'national rail' cover it? What do you suggest?

 

[Mojo]

'Regular' TfL buses connect Ealing Broadway and West Ealing with Greenford Broadway (passing the intermediate stations at some distance) and thence to Ruislip (not that close to South Ruislip or West Ruislip); a change of bus is required at Greenford Broadway to reach Greenford Station.

The E7 bus runs from Ealing Broadway and West Ealing, which stops at a stop 5 minutes away from South Ruislip station and, during the daytimes another stop thats 5 minutes away from West Ruislip station.

There was a bus run over part to 'replace' the former North-South service that had run via Kensington Olympia between Manchester and Brighton/ Dover (variations over time); and a 'parliamantary' train betwewen West Ruislip/ High Wycombe and Paddington when the service to Paddington was 'diverted' to Marylebone.

Was this not a separate service, with CrossCountry running a weekly bus from Ealing Broadway to Olympia and Wandsworth Road, and Southern running a daily train from Olympia to Wandsworth Road [details in ORR consultation document from May 2012 - https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/closures-ekw-dft-consultation.pdf]?

Whereas this bus is a replacement for the former Chiltern Railways service which at various times have operated between West Ealing and West/South Ruislip, which itself is a replacement for the daily train along the New North Main Line into Paddington which operated for train crew route retention purposes and was diverted to West Ealing when HS2 works at Old Oak Common blocked the line.

 

[Starmill]

Central line runs on "rails" last time I checked...

Did the word being in single quotes not clue you in to the fact that the person you're quoting was already aware of the physical use of rails by London Underground trains?

 

[BrianW]

The E7 bus runs from Ealing Broadway and West Ealing, which stops at a stop 5 minutes away from South Ruislip station and, during the daytimes another stop thats 5 minutes away from West Ruislip station.


Was this not a separate service, with CrossCountry running a weekly bus from Ealing Broadway to Olympia and Wandsworth Road, and Southern running a daily train from Olympia to Wandsworth Road [details in ORR consultation document from May 2012 - https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/closures-ekw-dft-consultation.pdf]?

Whereas this bus is a replacement for the former Chiltern Railways service which at various times have operated between West Ealing and West/South Ruislip, which itself is a replacement for the daily train along the New North Main Line into Paddington which operated for train crew route retention purposes and was diverted to West Ealing when HS2 works at Old Oak Common blocked the line.

Did the word being in single quotes not clue you in to the fact that the person you're quoting was already aware of the physical use of rails by London Underground trains?

I am pleased to have made my contributions to this thread, and don't mind being 'corrected'- every day a learning day!

As you observe, the E7 travels via Greenford Broadway; it does not go to Greenford station, which is a long walk away, or another bus.

 

[Sunil_P]

Thank you Sunil for trying to help me.

I'm here all week

Did the word being in single quotes not clue you in to the fact that the person you're quoting was already aware of the physical use of rails by London Underground trains?

So we're agreed, we don't need a "rail" replacement bus.

 

[Horizon22]

This is just a "parliamentary bus" to replace the West Ruislip to West Ealing parliamentary train which itself was a replacement of the parliamentary Chiltern Paddington service curtailed at West Ealing post Crossrail.

Of course it's all totally pointless but that would mean the arduous closure route for passenger services (it's still regularly in use by freight). Hopefully for complete basket-cases like this there can be some legislation in this Parliament to prevent nonsense services like this.

 

[BrianW]

This is just a "parliamentary bus" to replace the West Ruislip to West Ealing parliamentary train which itself was a replacement of the parliamentary Chiltern Paddington service curtailed at West Ealing post Crossrail.

Of course it's all totally pointless but that would mean the arduous closure route for passenger services (it's still regularly in use by freight). Hopefully for complete basket-cases like this there can be some legislation in this Parliament to prevent nonsense services like this.

At risk of extending the life of this pointless discussion ... (why the Greenford-Ealing passenger service has survived is a mystery to me) ...

The E7 bus is a service of long-standing which IIRC has only ever run between Ealing Broadway and Ruislip via Greenford Broadway. It has never served Greenford Station. It was introduced (in the later 1960s?) with single-decker 'standee' buses. They were unpopular replacement for the previous 97 or 211 bus. The 97 was a double-decker and the 211 had been a single-decker (RF?). At sometime the routes between Ealing Broadway and Greenford Broadway were 'swapped around', one running via Pitzhanger Lane, the other via Drayton Green. On Sundays the 97/211 was extended to Ruislip station and on Summer Sundays to the popular Ruislip Lido. The 97 bus ran beyond Ealing Broadway and the Lido cinema at West Ealing to Brentford Half Acre. I have a LT bus map for 1964.

I remain at a loss to know what the original posting meant with reference to 'the timetable' with 'the bus service departing 11:17 Wednesday from West Ealing to West Ruislip'.

I seem to recall a thread around passengers for the last train service from West Ruislip to Paddington. Maybe I am suffering 'selective memory syndrome'?

 

[Horizon22]

At risk of extending the life of this pointless discussion ... (why the Greenford-Ealing passenger service has survived is a mystery to me) ...

The E7 bus is a service of long-standing which IIRC has only ever run between Ealing Broadway and Ruislip via Greenford Broadway. It has never served Greenford Station. It was introduced (in the later 1960s?) with single-decker 'standee' buses. They were unpopular replacement for the previous 97 or 211 bus. The 97 was a double-decker and the 211 had been a single-decker (RF?). At sometime the routes between Ealing Broadway and Greenford Broadway were 'swapped around', one running via Pitzhanger Lane, the other via Drayton Green. On Sundays the 97/211 was extended to Ruislip station and on Summer Sundays to the popular Ruislip Lido. The 97 bus ran beyond Ealing Broadway and the Lido cinema at West Ealing to Brentford Half Acre. I have a LT bus map for 1964.

I remain at a loss to know what the original posting meant with reference to 'the timetable' with 'the bus service departing 11:17 Wednesday from West Ealing to West Ruislip'.

I seem to recall a thread around passengers for the last train service from West Ruislip to Paddington. Maybe I am suffering 'selective memory syndrome'?

The list of named buses you have posted and the once-a-day parliamentary bus service (in lieu of a train service) are totally unrelated.

 

[miklcct]

This is just a "parliamentary bus" to replace the West Ruislip to West Ealing parliamentary train which itself was a replacement of the parliamentary Chiltern Paddington service curtailed at West Ealing post Crossrail.

Of course it's all totally pointless but that would mean the arduous closure route for passenger services (it's still regularly in use by freight). Hopefully for complete basket-cases like this there can be some legislation in this Parliament to prevent nonsense services like this.

Even if the parliament service doesn't run, aren't there still passenger services in the form of West Ealing - Greenford (GWR), and Greenford - West Ruislip (Central Line) covering the whole section exact?

 

[BrianW]

The list of named buses you have posted and the once-a-day parliamentary bus service (in lieu of a train service) are totally unrelated.

Indeed. I see that Realtime trains shows an 11.42 arrival at West Ruislip of a bus from West Ealing on 16 October, Wednesdays Only, with no intermediate stops.

The E7 bus was referred to by a contributor upthread.

Even if the parliament service doesn't run, aren't there still passenger services in the form of West Ealing - Greenford (GWR), and Greenford - West Ruislip (Central Line) covering the whole section exact?

There are.

 

[Horizon22]

Even if the parliament service doesn't run, aren't there still passenger services in the form of West Ealing - Greenford (GWR), and Greenford - West Ruislip (Central Line) covering the whole section exact?

The Underground service wouldn’t count in this regard. I didn’t say any of this was particularly sensible!

 

[Sunil_P]

No "rail" services up the Epping branch since 1970, I believe - but no "rail replacement buses"!