Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[Goldfish62]

Depends if you mean E400 (whole bus) or E400 (body). I seem to recall that Lothian has bought a large number of E400 bodied Volvos (2 and 3 axle), and there have been several purchases of E400 'coach' buses for independents which could start to add up.

And then add in the BYDs with E400 bodies, especially the sizeable quantities for London.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Quite possibly during the last year where Diamond Bus in Bolton ordered a large fleet of Streetdecks (90+ vehicles, I think?) whilst the only sizeable recent order for the E400 has come from Stagecoach Manchester (52 vehicles)

Was that for the month total, or were there more Enviro 400/Streetdeck orders?

Depends if you mean E400 (whole bus) or E400 (body).

Well I was comparing like for like, so the whole bus.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Was that for the month total, or were there more Enviro 400/Streetdeck orders?

If i recall correctly more Streetdecks were registered on 70 plates than the entire ADL range in the UK.

Well I was comparing like for like, so the whole bus.

As a whole the E200MMC and E400MMC have vastly outsold the Wright equivalents. The Integral E400MMC which is just a evolution of the original Trident is the best selling double decker in history having now significantly surpassed both the Atlantean and Olympian.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If i recall correctly more Streetdecks were registered on 70 plates than the entire ADL range in the UK.

Ok but I still think they could get collared by the ASA since the E400 MMC is a vastly more popular bus.

 

[Bristol LHS]

It's because it's built to UK specification, long term Wright intend to offer the Hawk outside the UK.

Hawk UK might be a better name then, especially if they’re going to illustrate it with an image of a vehicle operating outside GB for Translink.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Hawk UK might be a better name then, especially if they’re going to illustrate it with an image of a vehicle operating outside GB for Translink.

It comes across as a bit of an own goal to call a product that, bearing in mind Translink have been a loyal customer of Wright throughout all of their troubles. Also the name either GB or UK won't do them any favours other side of the border either.

To be honest, they'd have been best keeping both GB and UK out of it totally.

Ok but I still think they could get collared by the ASA since the E400 MMC is a vastly more popular bus.

Depends how you define popular, I guess.

 

[507021]

The website is nice, but the choice of name for the new saloon is dreadful.

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite possibly during the last year where Diamond Bus in Bolton ordered a large fleet of Streetdecks (90+ vehicles, I think?) whilst the only sizeable recent order for the E400 has come from Stagecoach Manchester (52 vehicles)

But Covid has distorted the market. Had it never arrived then ADL would undoubtedly have continued selling in healthy quantities.

 

[DaveHarries]

But Covid has distorted the market. Had it never arrived then ADL would undoubtedly have continued selling in healthy quantities.

I wouldn't bother with Streetdecks if I was an operator: IMO they are not the nicest-looking buses.

Dave

 

[carlberry]

I wouldn't bother with Streetdecks if I was an operator: IMO they are not the nicest-looking buses.

Dave

If operators bought buses because they looked nice, East Lancs wouldn't have survived as long as it did!

 

[Tom Gallacher]

I agree with you that COVID has played havoc with planning for most operators but lets look at the bigger picture. It has already been pointed out that Wrights 70' plate registrations outstripped ADL but these chassis would have been placed pre-pandemic so this cannot be attributed to COVID. So what could have brought about the turnaround in orders? Well, let me hypothesize.

Around 20 years ago TRANSBUS sold their factory in Guildford and re-leased it for a period of 20 years. TRANSBUS went into liquidation a couple of years later with a lot of blame being apportioned to the (then) directors for effectively lining their own pockets at the expense of the business as a whole - the pension scandal is an example of this. What if the directors of the afore mentioned company sold the premises to a company that then re-leased the said premises to them at a highly inflated rent with a built in proviso that any extension of the lease needed to be at the same inflated rate (with allowances for inflation)? Let me make it clear, I'm not suggesting that there could have been any financial inducement for the said directors.

Fast forward 19 years and the lease is up for renewal. The new owners of what was TRANSBUS decide that the costs of retaining a presence in Guildford is so prohibitive that signing a new lease would not be in the best interests of the company. In addition, the market has completely changed. Gone are the days when diesel was king, there's a new kid in town. However the new kid's chassis still needs to have a body put on it so why not get into bed with him (or her for the PC brigade), let him have the angst of warranty claims on what actually makes the thing move, and concentrate on a side of your business that you are very good at.

There's a good reason why ADL have achieved a lot less orders than Wrights. However, it's late at night and I've already said enough - I'll let you folks join the dots.

And please note, this is only a hypothesis.

 

[jammy36]

I agree with you that COVID has played havoc with planning for most operators but lets look at the bigger picture. It has already been pointed out that Wrights 70' plate registrations outstripped ADL but these chassis would have been placed pre-pandemic so this cannot be attributed to COVID. So what could have brought about the turnaround in orders?

There's a good reason why ADL have achieved a lot less orders than Wrights. However, it's late at night and I've already said enough - I'll let you folks join the dots.

And please note, this is only a hypothesis.

I think it is impossible to attribute a substantive part of the reduction in orders to anything other than Covid. The drop-off in orders is stark, even taking account of the fact that operator orders would probably have been somewhat reduced even without the Covid effect.

I've tried to crunch some numbers. They may not be exactly right, but broadly indicate double decker deliveries by Optare, Wrightbus and ADL for each of the last 5 calendar years to UK & ROI:

2017
ADL total D/D output 647
ADL integral output 524
Wrightbus total output 882
Wrightbus integral output 183 (inc. 110 NBFL)
Optare 1

2018
ADL total D/D output 678
ADL integral output 599
Wrightbus total output 523
Wrightbus integral output 182 (inc. 1 NBFL)
Optare 0;

2019
ADL total D/D output 694 (inc 40 BYD)
ADL integral output 466
Wrightbus total output 324 .
Wrightbus integral output 182
Optare 30

2020
ADL total D/D output 507 (inc 139 BYD)
ADL integral output 301
Wrightbus total output 234
Wrightbus integral output 196
Optare 35

2021
ADL total D/D output 239 (inc 52 BYD)
ADL integral output 121
Wrightbus total output 126
Wrightbus integral output 126
Optare 44

I've used the term integral where body and chassis are by the same manufacturer (accepting that isn't technically the correct usage). As such you could argue that BYD vehicles could be counted under the 'integral' heading given the nature of the partnership that exists between BYD & ADL.

ADLs integral output has consistently outstripped both Wright and Optare for every year but 2021 and even that was tight with Wrightbus and of course only represents a part year so far. If Wrightbus didn't have the Rotala order their numbers would look pretty dire.

Wrightbus's integral output has remained fairly consistent, but bodying others chassis has fallen off a cliff and historically this represented a major part of the order book.

I think technically there will be measures/metrics where both Wrightbus and ADL could claim to be "the UK's favourite double deck bus", but in all honesty that really just marketing fluff and operators will make their purchasing decisions based on other more meaningful factors.

 

[cnjb8]

I think it is impossible to attribute a substantive part of the reduction in orders to anything other than Covid. The drop-off in orders is stark, even taking account of the fact that operator orders would probably have been somewhat reduced even without the Covid effect.

I've tried to crunch some numbers. They may not be exactly right, but broadly indicate double decker deliveries by Optare, Wrightbus and ADL for each of the last 5 calendar years to UK & ROI:

2017
ADL total D/D output 647
ADL integral output 524
Wrightbus total output 882
Wrightbus integral output 183 (inc. 110 NBFL)
Optare 1

2018
ADL total D/D output 678
ADL integral output 599
Wrightbus total output 523
Wrightbus integral output 182 (inc. 1 NBFL)
Optare 0;

2019
ADL total D/D output 694 (inc 40 BYD)
ADL integral output 466
Wrightbus total output 324 .
Wrightbus integral output 182
Optare 30

2020
ADL total D/D output 507 (inc 139 BYD)
ADL integral output 301
Wrightbus total output 234
Wrightbus integral output 196
Optare 35

2021
ADL total D/D output 239 (inc 52 BYD)
ADL integral output 121
Wrightbus total output 126
Wrightbus integral output 126
Optare 44

I've used the term integral where body and chassis are by the same manufacturer (accepting that isn't technically the correct usage). As such you could argue that BYD vehicles could be counted under the 'integral' heading given the nature of the partnership that exists between BYD & ADL.

ADLs integral output has consistently outstripped both Wright and Optare for every year but 2021 and even that was tight with Wrightbus and of course only represents a part year so far. If Wrightbus didn't have the Rotala order their numbers would look pretty dire.

Wrightbus's integral output has remained fairly consistent, but bodying others chassis has fallen off a cliff and historically this represented a major part of the order book.

I think technically there will be measures/metrics where both Wrightbus and ADL could claim to be "the UK's favourite double deck bus", but in all honesty that really just marketing fluff and operators will make their purchasing decisions based on other more meaningful factors.

To be fair, Wrightbus orders are so high because of the Rotala order, but once delivered what other major orders do they have? 2021 isn’t over yet so it’s unfair to put it in stats now

 

[F Great Eastern]

Wrightbus's integral output has remained fairly consistent, but bodying others chassis has fallen off a cliff and historically this represented a major part of the order book.

I think technically there will be measures/metrics where both Wrightbus and ADL could claim to be "the UK's favourite double deck bus", but in all honesty that really just marketing fluff and operators will make their purchasing decisions based on other more meaningful factors.

Wright have cut their nose off to spite their face by being increasingly reluctant to body other chassis.

They supplied about 900 vehicles on Volvo chassis to Go Ahead Ireland, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann between 2012-2019 in the Republic of Ireland, since they could fall back on the highly extensive Volvo dealer network in the country, which had a far better presence and service and support network that dwarfed anything anyone else could offer. ADL had no presence of their own at all. This gave Volvo/Wright a massive advantage on any tender in Ireland which has always rewarded those with an extensive service and support network infrastructure.

Now they're facing a situation where ADL have won a multi year framework for up to 600 double deckers and have just won the single decker market, which Wright held their own on with the Volvo/Wright combination until 2016 when they were only interested in offering Streetlites for, lost one tender to Mercedes and won another based on a basic version of a Streetlite that has been hated by drivers, passengers and pretty much all the companies that have operated them. ADL are now building up a service and support network in Republic of Ireland and it's likely that Wright will never recover the market position they had.

Meanwhile, despite being very majorly hit by Wright no longer working with them, Volvo have been picking up the small single digit singkle deck orders in Ireland through the MCV Evora single deck body, as Wrightbus doesn't seem to be hugely interested in building such small orders so it's hard to see what kind of impact they can have in the Irish market going forward.

 

[jammy36]

To be fair, Wrightbus orders are so high because of the Rotala order, but once delivered what other major orders do they have? 2021 isn’t over yet so it’s unfair to put it in stats now

Yes, that's what I said/meant (although I should have put is tight, rather than was tight) here:

ADLs integral output has consistently outstripped both Wright and Optare for every year but 2021 and even that was tight with Wrightbus and of course only represents a part year so far. If Wrightbus didn't have the Rotala order their numbers would look pretty dire.

As I said 2021 is only a part year so far and bolstered by the Rotala order (although a large part of that fell in 2020).

 

[py_megapixel]

The Integral E400MMC which is just a evolution of the original Trident is the best selling double decker in history having now significantly surpassed both the Atlantean and Olympian.

I must say I massively prefer the MMC to what it replaced.
The original E400s seemed to take any opportunity to rattle and clunk, there was far too much engine noise in the passenger cabin (especially the lower deck) and the ride was atrocious, except on the hybrids which felt pretty smooth. Their Wright contemporaries were much nicer.

From a passenger perspective the MMCs are a revelation and beat not only older buses but also probably the StreetDeck - especially now Stagecoach have stopped speccing them with that awful beachball interior* which felt like a Ryanair-Easyjet hybrid - the blue one is much nicer
Obviously this isn't the fault of the MMC design, and other operators of E400MMCs are available.

It's not surprising they've sold well.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I must say I massively prefer the MMC to what it replaced.
The original E400s seemed to take any opportunity to rattle and clunk, there was far too much engine noise in the passenger cabin (especially the lower deck) and the ride was atrocious, except on the hybrids which felt pretty smooth. Their Wright contemporaries were much nicer.

From a passenger perspective the MMCs are a revelation and beat not only older buses but also probably the StreetDeck - especially now Stagecoach have stopped speccing them with that awful beachball interior* which felt like a Ryanair-Easyjet hybrid - the blue one is much nicer
Obviously this isn't the fault of the MMC design, and other operators of E400MMCs are available.

It's not surprising they've sold well.

I really disliked the original Enviro 400, it felt really like an ALX400 which had a new front and new rear put on it, with poor build quality. Even the way the rear and the back applies to the main body of the bus on the Enviro 400 makes it look like they stuck it on an old design.

The MMC is far better in almost every single way, the bus looks far more like a proper product, the build quality is much better and there are more modern touches. It feels like a bigger change between that and the original Enviro than there was between the ALX400 and the ENviro 400.

The Gemini 1 / Gemini 2 was a better bus than the Enviro 400 by a long shot for me, but the MMC is a better bus than the Gemini 3.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Optare (Switch mobility) has appointed Andy Palmer (former head of Aston Martin) to lead the company

Former Aston Martin boss switches roles to get on the buses | TheBusinessDesk.com

He will head up a major expansion plan for electric vehicle maker

www.thebusinessdesk.com

Good appointment although I swear this was announced before. Anyways, he was doing a good job at Aston before Mr Strulovitch barged in.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are Optare no longer taking orders for double deckers? Since their flashy new website launched they seem to have no mention at all of the Metrodecker online.
(The Versa is gone as well, but that's unsurprising as it was essentially competing with the Metrocity for no discernable reason)

 

[Jordan Adam]

Are Optare no longer taking orders for double deckers? Since their flashy new website launched they seem to have no mention at all of the Metrodecker online.
(The Versa is gone as well, but that's unsurprising as it was essentially competing with the Metrocity for no discernable reason)

They're now selling diesel products through Optare and electric products through Switch Mobility, The Metrodecker is still shown on the latter so i can only assume they've dropped the diesel variant?

The Solo, Versa and Metrocity are all the exact same vehicle, the only difference is the very front section. The Metrocity was created for the London market originally as TFL didn't like the long front overhang of the Versa.

 

[cnjb8]

Are Optare no longer taking orders for double deckers? Since their flashy new website launched they seem to have no mention at all of the Metrodecker online.
(The Versa is gone as well, but that's unsurprising as it was essentially competing with the Metrocity for no discernable reason)

Apparently operators who wanted the Versa were offered the Metrocity first, so then the Versa became the premium product.

 

[MotCO]

Good appointment although I swear this was announced before. Anyways, he was doing a good job at Aston before Mr Strulovitch barged in.

I think Palmer was previously appointed as non-executive chairman; he has now been appointed as Executive Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Officer from 1st July 2021. (source: https://www.switchmobility.tech/new...agement-team-achieve-urban-e-mobility?nid=122).

Dr Andy Palmer CMG appointed Executive Vice Chairman & CEO​

Switch Mobility Ltd. ("Switch" or "the company"), the new electrified commercial vehicles group backed by the Hinduja Group, today announces its formal launch by combining the electric commercial vehicle operations of Ashok Leyland and the former Optare company to secure a leading global position in net zero carbon buses and light commercial vehicles.
A new leadership team has been appointed to leverage the legacy manufacturing and innovation capabilities of Ashok Leyland and Optare, while applying cutting-edge technologies to provide customers with industry-leading low cost of ownership and net zero emissions transport solutions globally.
Dr Andy Palmer has been appointed as Executive Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Officer from 1st July 2021, supported by an experienced team of experts to deliver the company's ambitions to be a leader in urban e-mobility. This includes the appointment of Nitin Seth as Chief Operating Officer, Sarwant Singh Saini as Chief Planning Officer and Roger Blakey as Chief Technical Officer. Further Leadership appointments will be announced shortly.
With the combined expertise of its teams in the UK and India, Switch will build on its experience of having more than 280 electric vehicles in service with over 26 million miles covered. The company's potential has been enhanced through technological collaboration with partners including Siemens to deliver e- mobility solutions that already offer the lowest Total Cost of Ownership for CV customers in India. As part of its ramp-up, Switch has already signed customer agreements with leading logistic operators and secured orders for a 2000-strong e-LCV fleet with customer trials starting this month.
Mr. Dheeraj Hinduja, Chairman of Switch Mobility, said: "Hinduja Group is focused on providing the needed thrust to our on-going initiatives in the rapidly growing zero carbon mobility sector. This is orchestrated through combining the advanced engineering and development skills in the U.K and India to address the demand in global markets. I am confident that with Andy Palmer at the helm, we will accelerate our vision to be at the forefront in this field soon."
Dr. Andy Palmer, Executive Vice Chairman and CEO of Switch Mobility, commented: "Switch holds a unique position in an increasingly competitive marketplace with our EV commercial vehicles already clocking millions of miles in service. We embrace the ethos of a start-up and enjoy the legacies of intellectual property, borne from more than a decade of technical expertise and engineering experience, that is already revenue-generating and delivering for our customers. I'm delighted to have become part of the Executive Leadership team and believe we have all the required ingredients to become a leading global e-bus and e-truck player, trail-blazing the way to zero-carbon public transport."


Published 02.07.21

Are Optare no longer taking orders for double deckers? Since their flashy new website launched they seem to have no mention at all of the Metrodecker online.
(The Versa is gone as well, but that's unsurprising as it was essentially competing with the Metrocity for no discernable reason)

The Switch website does include the Metrodecker https://www.switchmobility.tech/current-vehicles. No mention of the Versa, so the range line-up is Metrodecker, Metrocity and the venerable Solo, plus some step entrance buses and light commercial vans, presumably for the asian market.

Vehicles from Switch Mobility Ltd:

Metrodecker​

MORE INFORMATION

Metrocity​

MORE INFORMATION

Solo​

MORE INFORMATION



Vehicles from Switch Global Ltd:

Bus 9.4m​

MORE INFORMATION

Bus 12m​

MORE INFORMATION

 

[py_megapixel]

The Switch website does include the Metrodecker https://www.switchmobility.tech/current-vehicles. No mention of the Versa, so the range line-up is Metrodecker, Metrocity and the venerable Solo, plus some step entrance buses and light commercial vans, presumably for the asian market.

I'm finding this quite confusing. Is Switch a rebrand of Optare? Or is it a merger? Or have they split the EVs off from the diesels, keeping the diesels under the Optare brand? If that's not the case, why is the Optare website still around (and indeed recently updated), with no mention of Switch?


It seems that both Optare and Switch are subsidiaries of Ashok-Leyland, if that's of any significance.

 

[MotCO]

I'm finding this quite confusing. Is Switch a rebrand of Optare? Or is it a merger? Or have they split the EVs off from the diesels, keeping the diesels under the Optare brand? If that's not the case, why is the Optare website still around (and indeed recently updated), with no mention of Switch?


It seems that both Optare and Switch are subsidiaries of Ashok-Leyland, if that's of any significance.

Considering they have only built 5 diesel Metrodeckers (but only two in service with Johnsons), maybe Optare/Switch don't consider the Metrodecker as a diesel bus.

 

[py_megapixel]

Considering they have only built 5 diesel Metrodeckers (but only two in service with Johnsons), maybe Optare/Switch don't consider the Metrodecker as a diesel bus.

Sounds probable.
So is that what the arrangement is then? Optare brand on the diesel buses and Switch on the electrics?

 

[MotCO]

Sounds probable.
So is that what the arrangement is then? Optare brand on the diesel buses and Switch on the electrics?

Who is buying new diesel double deckers? I don't think the Metrodecker was hybrid, so it is a straight diesel. I suspect many independents will be waiting for the hybrids to be cascaded out of London when they are replaced by electrics, and most new purchases are hybrid or electric.

 

[py_megapixel]

Who is buying new diesel double deckers?

Stagecoach are still buying quite a few, aren't they? I guess not from Optare though. I'm not sure what even was the last decker they bought that wasn't an E400MMC!

I don't think the Metrodecker was hybrid, so it is a straight diesel. I suspect many independents will be waiting for the hybrids to be cascaded out of London when they are replaced by electrics, and most new purchases are hybrid or electric.

Fair enough. But this still begs the question (to which I fully appreciate you may not have the answer) - why are both Optare and Switch's presences coexisting with no mention by either of the other?

 

[MotCO]

Stagecoach are still buying quite a few, aren't they? I guess not from Optare though. I'm not sure what even was the last decker they bought that wasn't an E400MMC!


Fair enough. But this still begs the question (to which I fully appreciate you may not have the answer) - why are both Optare and Switch's presences coexisting with no mention by either of the other?

Probably some E40D or Scania E400s? But are Stagecoach buying pure diesel, or hybrid diesel?

I'm also confused about Optare/Switch. They've renamed their factory as Switch, so why does the Optare website still exist? Why only partially rebrand? Mind you, it sort of sums Optare up - they can't do anything quickly!

 

[cnjb8]

Stagecoach are still buying quite a few, aren't they? I guess not from Optare though. I'm not sure what even was the last decker they bought that wasn't an E400MMC!


Fair enough. But this still begs the question (to which I fully appreciate you may not have the answer) - why are both Optare and Switch's presences coexisting with no mention by either of the other?

Probably some E40D or Scania E400s? But are Stagecoach buying pure diesel, or hybrid diesel?

I'm also confused about Optare/Switch. They've renamed their factory as Switch, so why does the Optare website still exist? Why only partially rebrand? Mind you, it sort of sums Optare up - they can't do anything quickly!

Stagecoach recently bought some Scania ADLs for Gloucester. But in terms of integral ADL deckers, Stagecoach have moved on to Smart Hybrids, which they recently purchased for Dover, Aberdeen and Aberhill

 

[py_megapixel]

Probably some E40D or Scania E400s? But are Stagecoach buying pure diesel, or hybrid diesel?

I'm reasonably sure the most recent batches for Manchester, for example, have been pure diesel.