Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[MotCO]

Your hyperlink is a Windows file path not a web link

Thanks. Link now corrected in original post, and repeated here https://www.mercedes-benz.com/conte...gates/brochures/MB_Powertrain_Bus_VI_2020.pdf.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

With more powerful engines being available from around 2021, it would suggest that the former is also an issue to some degree. That said, as far as I know, only six Streetdecks were fitted with Mercedes-Benz OM936 engines instead of the regular OM934 engine: one for Go North East and five for Bus Vannin in Mann.

I think by the time the larger engine became available the reputation was also doing nothing for sales, particularly in consideration of interurban bus routes which the larger engine was targeted at, so we have no clear idea if it was enough or not (size wise it is comparable to ADL/Cummins & Scania options). Neither First or Rotala, who are the biggest purchasers of Streetdecks recently have extensive interurban deployment of deckers and where First did have a need ADL already seemed to get their foot in that door.

 

[NIT100]

I think by the time the larger engine became available the reputation was also doing nothing for sales, particularly in consideration of interurban bus routes which the larger engine was targeted at, so we have no clear idea if it was enough or not (size wise it is comparable to ADL/Cummins & Scania options). Neither First or Rotala, who are the biggest purchasers of Streetdecks recently have extensive interurban deployment of deckers and where First did have a need ADL already seemed to get their foot in that door.

Streetdecks are regularly deployed on Ulsterbus services out of Belfast on interurban and Park-and-ride services. Not saying the small engine isn't an issue though.

 

[Mikey C]

5L engines are fine for hybrid double deckers, but it seems a dubious decision to use them for conventional ones without the extra battery power to boost acceleration. Did the Volvo B5TL have the same issues, seeing that it used the same engine as the hybrid B5LH?

I'm sure both were way better than Wright's first attempt at a hybrid double decker though, the Gemini 2 HEV with its 2.4 litre 4-cylinder engine from a Ford Transit! Those were desperately slow.

 

[stevieinselby]

5L engines are fine for hybrid double deckers, but it seems a dubious decision to use them for conventional ones without the extra battery power to boost acceleration. Did the Volvo B5TL have the same issues, seeing that it used the same engine as the hybrid B5LH?

I remember Transdev having huge reliability issues on The 36 and Coastliner when they got new B5TLs in 2015/16 – those are demanding interurban routes, and buses were conking out left, right and centre – and in the end I think they had to go back to the manufacturer for remedial work. Thankfully that did seem to fix the problem.

 

[joieman]

5L engines are fine for hybrid double deckers, but it seems a dubious decision to use them for conventional ones without the extra battery power to boost acceleration. Did the Volvo B5TL have the same issues, seeing that it used the same engine as the hybrid B5LH?

I came across a separate thread about this subject, so, in short, the answer is yes.

 

[Edvid]

and they have allegedly received their first order. A batch of RB6 by a local authority for a DRT operation.

The DRT operation concerned is Go2 Ebbsfleet.

Austin Blackburn buys back Go Coach - Bus & Coach Buyer

Kent-based Go-Coach has changed ownership, returning to being fully independent and locally owned. The bus operator was acquired by Hulleys of Baslow in December 2023, but has now returned to Austin Blackburn’s ownership. Austin previously ran the business until December 2023 and completed a...

www.busandcoachbuyer.com

First for new Wrightbus Rightech vehicle​

[Go-Coach] has recently invested in the latest EV technology and infrastructure and will become the first operator to invest in the newly launched Wrightbus Rightech RB6 vehicles. These 6m buses will operate on its demand responsive transit (DRT) service Go2, which will operate around Ebbsfleet.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Last week's news but not reported here I guess. The true end of Optare now that Switch are consulting on the closure of their plant in Sherburn and handling all UK production from India or the UAE. Sad fizzle out of what was quite a pioneering manufacturer in it's day.

Switch Mobility Sherburn plant closure consultation to commence - routeone

Closure of the Switch Mobility bus plant in Sherburn in Elmet looks likely after the business agreed to open consultation on that move.

www.route-one.net

Closure of the Switch Mobility bus manufacturing plant in Sherburn in Elmet looks inevitable after parent Ashok Leyland announced that it will commence a consultation on that move.

Ashok says that the proposal has come about thanks to “general economic uncertainty in both the UK and Europe.” If the closure progresses, all orders in hand will be completed and aftermarket support for existing vehicles will be maintained.

The manufacturer came out of Optare and saw the Switch Mobility moniker adopted for battery-electric buses. It says that “when markets recover” it will continue to cater to UK and other European demand from plants in India and the United Arab Emirates.

The e1 heavyweight battery-electric single-decker was launched in 2022 for left-hand drive European nations but has struggled to gain traction in a highly competitive market.

Ashok adds that it plans to “double down on the high-growth India EV market, which is poised to grow multi-fold in the next few years.” Switch has over 1,800 battery-electric bus orders for the Indian market. It also offers zero-emission light commercial vehicles there.

Speaking about the Sherburn closure proposals, Ashok Leyland Managing Director and CEO Shenu Agarwal says: “While Ashok Leyland remained committed to the UK market over the last 15 years, adoption of zero-emission passenger vehicles has been tepid. This seems to be the right time to cut down losses in the UK market.”

Chief Financial Officer K M Balaji adds that potential closure of the Sherburn in Elmet plant by Switch Mobility “is expected to mitigate the losses of UK operations.”

He continues: “The current cash flow requirements of Switch UK will be borne out of GBP 45 million of equity infusion already approved by the board of Ashok Leyland in February this year.

“Switch India is doing much better than expected and should not require significant equity infusion in the near future. On an overall basis, the value accretion from Switch EV business is expected to be much more than the investments made in those entities.”

The most recent accounts for Switch Mobility, to 31 March 2024 and including all group operations, show a loss of £43.4 million on a turnover of £66.6 million, with the latter figure representing an almost trebling from the previous financial year. In FY2023/24, the UK accounted for £24.9 million of turnover but that from the rest of Europe was just £117,000.

In 2022, then-Switch CEO and Executive Vice Chairman Dr Andy Palmer said that it had ceased the manufacture of diesel buses at Sherburn in Elmet. That was subsequently reversed to permit assembly of the diesel Optare Solo with a major order from Stagecoach.

Delivery of the diesel Solo to Stagecoach and at least one other customer has continued, but uptake of Switch-branded battery-electric bus models here has been slow and hurt by competition from other marques.

 

[Leyland Bus]

It's like history repeating itself...

Last week's news but not reported here I guess. The true end of Optare now that Switch are consulting on the closure of their plant in Sherburn and handling all UK production from India or the UAE. Sad fizzle out of what was quite a pioneering manufacturer in it's day.

Switch Mobility Sherburn plant closure consultation to commence - routeone

Closure of the Switch Mobility bus plant in Sherburn in Elmet looks likely after the business agreed to open consultation on that move.

www.route-one.net

 

[VioletEclipse]

Last week's news but not reported here I guess. The true end of Optare now that Switch are consulting on the closure of their plant in Sherburn and handling all UK production from India or the UAE. Sad fizzle out of what was quite a pioneering manufacturer in it's day.

Switch Mobility Sherburn plant closure consultation to commence - routeone

Closure of the Switch Mobility bus plant in Sherburn in Elmet looks likely after the business agreed to open consultation on that move.

www.route-one.net

If a cheap and popular alternative to the solo from a different manufacturer comes along soon then I could imagine a future (say in 20 years) where the last few remaining solos are the only reminants of the company on this island.

 

[Bungle965]

Remember we already have a thread for discussing Switch/Optare closure related matters:

Switch is planning to close its Yorkshire factory and concentrate on India

Switch , formerly Optare until 2020, has announced that it is undertaking a consultation process in relation to the potential closure of its bus building facility in Sherburn-in-Elmet in North Yorkshire due to ‘eocnomic uncertainty and ‘slower than expected adoption of electriv vehicles in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[thundercat91]

I remember Transdev having huge reliability issues on The 36 and Coastliner when they got new B5TLs in 2015/16 – those are demanding interurban routes, and buses were conking out left, right and centre – and in the end I think they had to go back to the manufacturer for remedial work. Thankfully that did seem to fix the problem.

Yes this is accurate. The engines suffered from huge levels of strain. Bear in mind the D5K engine is derived from medium duty truck, usually 18 tonners on light (ish) work. Madness to put them in a decker and even more so on a route like the Yorkshire coastliner.

That said the B9TL weren't a whole lot better.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Unless someone can make hydrogen a potentially viable solution which are currently, I don't see it as then. We're still going to need a mid to long distance inter-urban vehicle with a suitably specked drivetrain and interior for some years. Yet. Electric will not work for every route and infrastructure for opportunity charging etc. Whilst great does sort of remove the flexibility of the bus as it does not allow for short notice diversions, root alterations etc etc. I wonder what manufacturers will do to come up with a plan for this solution as there's very little on the current market that seems to fit this profile

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Unless someone can make hydrogen a potentially viable solution which are currently, I don't see it as then. We're still going to need a mid to long distance inter-urban vehicle with a suitably specked drivetrain and interior for some years. Yet. Electric will not work for every route and infrastructure for opportunity charging etc. Whilst great does sort of remove the flexibility of the bus as it does not allow for short notice diversions, root alterations etc etc. I wonder what manufacturers will do to come up with a plan for this solution as there's very little on the current market that seems to fit this profile

Technologically hydrogen is already pretty much feasible, it is too expensive as a solution to be viable commercially as a general solution just now but the biggest hurdle (which is affecting the current attempts to run buses) is that hydrogen fuel supplies have not kept up with demand so operators are struggling to get supplies to run their buses as required. In theory the supply issue can be addressed with investment in more production facilities but it is unclear whether and how quickly the cost issues can be pulled down to a viable price range to make it a reasonable prospect. Wrightbus are the biggest pusher of this in the UK, being owned by a man/company whose main outside interests are in hydrogen fuel solutions, so there is still a push to making this work - they have a hydrogen coach in the works and already have a number of buses 'in service' (at least as much as fuel supplies allow).

 

[py_megapixel]

Technologically hydrogen is already pretty much feasible, it is too expensive as a solution to be viable commercially as a general solution just now but the biggest hurdle (which is affecting the current attempts to run buses) is that hydrogen fuel supplies have not kept up with demand so operators are struggling to get supplies to run their buses as required. In theory the supply issue can be addressed with investment in more production facilities but it is unclear whether and how quickly the cost issues can be pulled down to a viable price range to make it a reasonable prospect. Wrightbus are the biggest pusher of this in the UK, being owned by a man/company whose main outside interests are in hydrogen fuel solutions, so there is still a push to making this work - they have a hydrogen coach in the works and already have a number of buses 'in service' (at least as much as fuel supplies allow).

The main problem with hydrogen is how horrendously inefficient its production is, which undermines most of the wider-scale environmental advantages. Clearly hydrogen production can be done with renewable energy, but my understanding is that it largely isn't at the moment, and in any case you still get less energy out of the process per unit energy in than if you'd just used it to charge a battery in the first place.

It still has the advantage of getting diesel emissions out of areas that have poor air quality, but the priority there is the high-frequency local routes in major cities, which London, Manchester, York, Leeds and others are already amply demonstrating that battery electric vehicles work well for those. By the time it comes around to electrifying longer-distance routes, I would expect the technology to have advanced some way - in fact there are already electric long-distance coaches in daily service with Ember, which seem to be met with reasonable success, and battery technology will only get more efficient over time, allowing longer and longer distances to be covered without recharging.

Perhaps hydrogen will find a niche somewhere, but I suspect the vast, vast majority of routes, even longer-distance interurban ones, will be converted directly from diesel to battery electric.

 

[stevieinselby]

By the time it comes around to electrifying longer-distance routes, I would expect the technology to have advanced some way - in fact there are already electric long-distance coaches in daily service with Ember, which seem to be met with reasonable success, and battery technology will only get more efficient over time, allowing longer and longer distances to be covered without recharging.

As always, the thing to remember is that what matters for the range needed is not the length of the route, but the distance between charging opportunities. It makes little difference if a bus/coach is doing a long-haul run of 200 miles, or doing 20 rounds trips of a journey that's 5 miles each way if there's no charging infrastructure (except that the former may be high speed for more of the journey and so might be more demanding).

If we can get coaches that can robustly manage 250 miles on a single charge in normal long-haul service then that covers the vast majority of coach journeys in the UK, and coaches then generally have a decent layover before starting the next journey where they can be recharged – it isn't like a local bus that has 5 minutes at the bus station before it's shooting off out again. And that doesn't feel like it's an unreasonable target for the near future. Sure, it will need the infrastructure put in place at bus and coach stations, and it might need a small increase in fleet size to ensure layovers are long enough, but nothing major. Yes, diesel coaches will still be needed for the longest runs for a while yet, but that's not a problem – we've got time for further developments and improvements to be made before the current crop of coaches will need to all be replaced.

 

[computerSaysNo]

5L engines are fine for hybrid double deckers, but it seems a dubious decision to use them for conventional ones without the extra battery power to boost acceleration. Did the Volvo B5TL have the same issues, seeing that it used the same engine as the hybrid B5LH?

As far as I'm aware, the hybrid part of the B5LH only provides assistance up to a maximum of about 10mph; above that it's the engine only. On one hand the hybrids all have a 12-speed gearbox so the engine should be able to spend longer close to its peak torque speed range; on the other hand I'd imagine that gearbox is significantly heavier than the 6-speed as used on the B5TL, plus the straight diesel doesn't have to lug about all the hybrid gubbins which aren't really doing much at higher speeds.

I remember Transdev having huge reliability issues on The 36 and Coastliner when they got new B5TLs in 2015/16 – those are demanding interurban routes, and buses were conking out left, right and centre – and in the end I think they had to go back to the manufacturer for remedial work. Thankfully that did seem to fix the problem.

The engines would seem to be adequate reliability wise if the remedial work solved the issue? Unless all they did was derate the engine to limit the maximum stress, in which case I feel like that's cheating a bit!

Yes this is accurate. The engines suffered from huge levels of strain. Bear in mind the D5K engine is derived from medium duty truck, usually 18 tonners on light (ish) work. Madness to put them in a decker and even more so on a route like the Yorkshire coastliner.

Yes, I feel like the B5 chassis general design is much more suited to urban/London work. Was it designed specifically for London, does anyone know?
It seems strange that Volvo produced an 8-litre engined chassis for single-deck vehicles but their only offering for double decks was a much smaller 5-litre.
And then when they did offer the 8-litre on a double deck chassis it was for three axle vehicles only. Can anyone offer more insight into this?

That said the B9TL weren't a whole lot better.

Weren't they? The B9 engine was designed for a Renault truck so I thought it would have been much more heavy duty. Were the Gemini and Gemini 2 bodies that much heavier that the B9TL/Gemini (/2) combo didn't perform much better than the B5TL/Gemini 3?
I guess the other explanation is that the B9 engine was limited much more in its power output (e.g. maximum demand on the B9 could have been limited to say 75% of the engine's theoretical maximum, compared to maximum demand on the B5 being limited to say 95% of it's theoretical maximum), which would certainly improve reliability.

 

[NIT100]

If we can get coaches that can robustly manage 250 miles on a single charge in normal long-haul service then that covers the vast majority of coach journeys in the UK, and coaches then generally have a decent layover before starting the next journey where they can be recharged – it isn't like a local bus that has 5 minutes at the bus station before it's shooting off out again.

Already achieved with Ember's Aberdeen (Bridge of Don) to Edinburgh E1 service. Just over 250 miles as a straight run, slightly more once you include any diversions for pre-booked stops. Will launch Fort William to Edinburgh direct service very soon, that is about 135 miles each way by most direct route. TBC if it will be charging at each end or just Fort Willliam end.

 

[Mikey C]

As far as I'm aware, the hybrid part of the B5LH only provides assistance up to a maximum of about 10mph; above that it's the engine only. On one hand the hybrids all have a 12-speed gearbox so the engine should be able to spend longer close to its peak torque speed range; on the other hand I'd imagine that gearbox is significantly heavier than the 6-speed as used on the B5TL, plus the straight diesel doesn't have to lug about all the hybrid gubbins which aren't really doing much at higher speeds.

The engines would seem to be adequate reliability wise if the remedial work solved the issue? Unless all they did was derate the engine to limit the maximum stress, in which case I feel like that's cheating a bit!

Yes, I feel like the B5 chassis general design is much more suited to urban/London work. Was it designed specifically for London, does anyone know?
It seems strange that Volvo produced an 8-litre engined chassis for single-deck vehicles but their only offering for double decks was a much smaller 5-litre.
And then when they did offer the 8-litre on a double deck chassis it was for three axle vehicles only. Can anyone offer more insight into this?

Weren't they? The B9 engine was designed for a Renault truck so I thought it would have been much more heavy duty. Were the Gemini and Gemini 2 bodies that much heavier that the B9TL/Gemini (/2) combo didn't perform much better than the B5TL/Gemini 3?
I guess the other explanation is that the B9 engine was limited much more in its power output (e.g. maximum demand on the B9 could have been limited to say 75% of the engine's theoretical maximum, compared to maximum demand on the B5 being limited to say 95% of it's theoretical maximum), which would certainly improve reliability.

Just as a passenger, but the B5LHs do seem slower on take off than the E400Hs for example, which have a larger engine.

And the interior lower deck is a complete mess, when compared to the E400H and hybrid Streetdeck.

 

[thundercat91]

Weren't they? The B9 engine was designed for a Renault truck so I thought it would have been much more heavy duty. Were the Gemini and Gemini 2 bodies that much heavier that the B9TL/Gemini (/2) combo didn't perform much better than the B5TL/Gemini 3?

The D9A engine originally came from the Volvo FM9, which was available from 2002, alongside the original 3 axle B9TL. Issues came around the time of D9B which is what was used in the 2 axle B9TL from 2005/6 onwards. Timing gears, injector sleeves, valves dropping. The bus application seems to make mince meat of a lot of engines. Even the bullet proof D12 was put through its paces when put on its side under the back of a B12B

 

[computerSaysNo]

The D9A engine originally came from the Volvo FM9, which was available from 2002, alongside the original 3 axle B9TL. Issues came around the time of D9B which is what was used in the 2 axle B9TL from 2005/6 onwards. Timing gears, injector sleeves, valves dropping. The bus application seems to make mince meat of a lot of engines. Even the bullet proof D12 was put through its paces when put on its side under the back of a B12B

Thanks. What are the differences between the D9A and D9B?

 

[Bungle965]

I see a refreshed Mellor Strata is out!

(Link to Coach & Bus Magazine)

Mellor launches updated Strata - CBW

Small bus manufacturer Mellor has unveiled its next-generation Strata, which it says has many forward-thinking design enhancements and builds upon the reliability and success of the original model, which was first launched in 2016. Key [...]

cbwmagazine.com

 

[Bornin1980s]

I don't understand why they chose the rear wheel drive sprinter, I would have thought front wheel drive would make more sense for a low floor minibus. They also make the front wheel drive, Fiat based orion, but that only goes up to 16 seats.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

I don't understand why they chose the rear wheel drive sprinter, I would have thought front wheel drive would make more sense for a low floor minibus. They also make the front wheel drive, Fiat based orion, but that only goes up to 16 seats.

I suspect size, not 100% sure but it looks like front wheel drive is only available on the smallest Sprinters (3.5 tonne?) and Mellor use the biggest option (5 tonnes?) to allow them to get up to the high capacities.

 

[stevieinselby]

I know the Evora-bodied Volvo B8RLE is available in 10.8m and 12.0m variants ... but how many operators have bought the shorter models?
Up until last week, I don't think I had seen any, every one that I had seen in person or in photos looked like it was full size (although I can't be absolutely sure!), but I have now seen some that I'm sure are the smaller ones ... on the Isle of Skye!
Stagecoach SJ72HNA, SJ72HNB and SJ73HUZ – although their other buses on the island look to be larger.
Are there any other examples of 10.8m Evoras on UK roads?

 

[Fin447]

I know the Evora-bodied Volvo B8RLE is available in 10.8m and 12.0m variants ... but how many operators have bought the shorter models?
Up until last week, I don't think I had seen any, every one that I had seen in person or in photos looked like it was full size (although I can't be absolutely sure!), but I have now seen some that I'm sure are the smaller ones ... on the Isle of Skye!
Stagecoach SJ72HNA, SJ72HNB and SJ73HUZ – although their other buses on the island look to be larger.
Are there any other examples of 10.8m Evoras on UK roads?

Arriva, Centrebus group, Sanders have some. I believe there is also a 13m variant used by First and Lothian

 

[Dfatcontroller]

I know the Evora-bodied Volvo B8RLE is available in 10.8m and 12.0m variants ... but how many operators have bought the shorter models?
Up until last week, I don't think I had seen any, every one that I had seen in person or in photos looked like it was full size (although I can't be absolutely sure!), but I have now seen some that I'm sure are the smaller ones ... on the Isle of Skye!
Stagecoach SJ72HNA, SJ72HNB and SJ73HUZ – although their other buses on the island look to be larger.
Are there any other examples of 10.8m Evoras on UK roads?

I'm sure most of the operators in Lanarkshire (Whitelaw, Stuarts, JMB) all operate the shorter model.

 

[JD2168]

I know the Evora-bodied Volvo B8RLE is available in 10.8m and 12.0m variants ... but how many operators have bought the shorter models?
Up until last week, I don't think I had seen any, every one that I had seen in person or in photos looked like it was full size (although I can't be absolutely sure!), but I have now seen some that I'm sure are the smaller ones ... on the Isle of Skye!
Stagecoach SJ72HNA, SJ72HNB and SJ73HUZ – although their other buses on the island look to be larger.
Are there any other examples of 10.8m Evoras on UK roads?

Stagecoach Yorkshire (Holbrook) have had a shorter Evora SJ24 HWX on loan from Ferrymill Motors quite often over the last year. It is currently back in Sheffield, the 6 from Sheffield Centre to Millhouses Tesco is it’s regular route.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Arriva, Centrebus group, Sanders have some. I believe there is also a 13m variant used by First and Lothian

There's a 12.9m version being used by several operators in the UK and Ireland.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I know the Evora-bodied Volvo B8RLE is available in 10.8m and 12.0m variants ... but how many operators have bought the shorter models?
Up until last week, I don't think I had seen any, every one that I had seen in person or in photos looked like it was full size (although I can't be absolutely sure!), but I have now seen some that I'm sure are the smaller ones ... on the Isle of Skye!
Stagecoach SJ72HNA, SJ72HNB and SJ73HUZ – although their other buses on the island look to be larger.
Are there any other examples of 10.8m Evoras on UK roads?

Safeguard Coaches of Guildford, Surrey, have five 10.8m examples. All were acquired new, with an initial pair arriving in October 2022 (BV72 KOD & LF72 DUV) followed by three more (BV23 NUJ/M/P) the following year.