Buses Leaving Early: Argument

[J-2739]

So, I've just arrived in Barnsley interchange, having just commuted from Wakefield and need to catch another bus for the journey home. It's 1729, and the 32, my bus route home, usually departs at 1731. Apparently, the bus left earlier than that, due to no more passengers getting on, so we had to wait untill 1746 to catch the next one.

Now, this lady in around her late 30s started getting mad, saying it was a disgrace that the bus left early while she'd been waiting since 1715. She let everyone know about her anger also. She went up and got hold of a station staff, complaining to him about this. She said that the 1731 bus was still at the stand at around 1725, so she decided to go to the toilet, expecting the bus to stay until departure and how the bus left earlier, with the bus driver assuming that no-one else was getting on. She also said how she'd been working since 0500 and was very tired and stressed. Staff did their best to calm her down, but it was no use, and she resorted to swearing.

At this point, some 16 year old lads from another school butted in, saying that it's not the bus driver's fault that he thought there was no-one there, and that everyone else were waiting without complaint, so she should stop swearing out load (there were kids of 10 at the stand also). The woman then said that she'd been at the station since *quarter past five" and started ranting again. The teens lost their cool and told her to "f*ck off", something like that. The woman started on them, calling them hypocrites. The 10 year old group of kids suddenly said to the woman "look what you're saying, you're swearing. In front of kids like us! What a disgrace you are!"

The woman yelled, "They swore first!"

The argument broke up when the bus finally came, but when we were all on, the teens, and the kids of 10, were still making fun of her behind her back, saying stuff like, "What time do you go to bed? Quarter past five?!"

I salute that woman for keeping calm in the bus, I would have cleaned the streets with their vile mouths.

I do feel sorry for the woman, as it must had been a very stressful day for her, and she just wanted to get home as brisk as possible. I wished all these people had though about what she must be going through. I feel that a bus leaving earlier is just as bad as a bus leaving late.

But what's your views?

 

[yorkie]

Once she swore she had lost the argument!

Of course the bus should not depart early, and you may want to consider writing to the company about that.

 

[Robertj21a]

So, I've just arrived in Barnsley interchange, having just commuted from Wakefield and need to catch another bus for the journey home. It's 1729, and the 32, my bus route home, usually departs at 1731. Apparently, the bus left earlier than that, due to no more passengers getting on, so we had to wait untill 1746 to catch the next one.

Now, this lady in around her late 30s started getting mad, saying it was a disgrace that the bus left early while she'd been waiting since 1915. She let everyone know about her anger also. She went up and got hold of a station staff, complaining to him about this. She said that the 1731 bus was still at the stand at around 1725, so she decided to go to the toilet, expecting the bus to stay until departure and how the bus left earlier, with the bus driver assuming that no-one else was getting on. She also said how she'd been working since 0500 and was very tired and stressed. Staff did their best to calm her down, but it was no use, and she resorted to swearing.

At this point, some 16 year old lads from another school butted in, saying that it's not the bus driver's fault that he thought there was no-one there, and that everyone else were waiting without complaint, so she should stop swearing out load (there were kids of 10 at the stand also). The woman then said that she'd been at the station since *quarter past five" and started ranting again. The teens lost their cool and told her to "f*ck off", something like that. The woman started on them, calling them hypocrites. The 10 year old group of kids suddenly said to the woman "look what you're saying, you're swearing. In front of kids like us! What a disgrace you are!"

The woman yelled, "They swore first!"

The argument broke up when the bus finally came, but when we were all on, the teens, and the kids of 10, were still making fun of her behind her back, saying stuff like, "What time do you go to bed? Quarter past five?!"

I salute that woman for keeping calm in the bus, I would have cleaned the streets with their vile mouths.

I do feel sorry for the woman, as it must had been a very stressful day for her, and she just wanted to get home as brisk as possible. I wished all these people had though about what she must be going through. I feel that a bus leaving earlier is just as bad as a bus leaving late.

But what's your views?

A lot of fuss about nothing. There's nothing to say who had the correct time anyway, it may well have been the bus driver !

 

[J-2739]

Once she swore she had lost the argument!

Of course the bus should not depart early, and you may want to consider writing to the company about that.

Yeah, perhaps swear words escalated the situation.

However, this woman must had been in a lot of distress, working from 0500, and the last thing she needed was to miss a bus that departed way before its schedule.

A lot of fuss about nothing. There's nothing to say who had the correct time anyway, it may well have been the bus driver !

The source I was getting the times from were the PIS in the station. I presume the drivers' watches are linked to this system.?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

when I first started driving buses the first thing I was taught was that there are 101 reasons for running late but not a single excuse for running early.

HOWEVER, in this day and age of digital ticketing machines most drivers (myself included) use the ticket machine as their clock as that is the evidence that will be used by management in any dispute over late/ early running.

So there should be no problem then seeing as though the world and his wife also use digital clocks on their mobile phones these days right?

WRONG! until recently I was driving a service which had a competitors service leave their stand at exactly the same departure time... the competitors service ALWAYS left 1 minute before time according to my clock... conclusion was that as ALL their drivers did this then it was obvious that their clocks were 1 minute ahead of ours... despite both using the same digital time signal to keep them running true... also my mobile phone (which again uses the same digital time signal) insists on running 2 minutes slow according to my ticket machine no matter how often I reset my phone.

As an Inspector in London the rule was that you was not allowed to book a driver for running early unless you was able to prove that he was running more than 2 minutes early... despite the Traffic Commissioner's 1 minute "window" drivers are allowed 2 minutes early running to allow for these discrepancies in clocks.

Having dealt with passenger complaints in the past, if this had been passed to me to deal with I would have deemed that the passenger was at fault for these reasons:

1. she had been waiting at the stop from 1715
2. at 1725 when the bus was already loading she decided to walk away for whatever reason
3. The driver left within the 2 minute window allowed at law, therefore he had done nothing wrong.

Especially from the description of the way she reacted to what happened and to being challenged for the way she was acting this sounds like a case of someone who makes bad decisions and then just cannot accept that it is in any way their own fault...

Oh and well done to the kids around for picking her up on the way she was acting!

 

[Busaholic]

when I first started driving buses the first thing I was taught was that there are 101 reasons for running late but not a single excuse for running early.

HOWEVER, in this day and age of digital ticketing machines most drivers (myself included) use the ticket machine as their clock as that is the evidence that will be used by management in any dispute over late/ early running.

So there should be no problem then seeing as though the world and his wife also use digital clocks on their mobile phones these days right?

WRONG! until recently I was driving a service which had a competitors service leave their stand at exactly the same departure time... the competitors service ALWAYS left 1 minute before time according to my clock... conclusion was that as ALL their drivers did this then it was obvious that their clocks were 1 minute ahead of ours... despite both using the same digital time signal to keep them running true... also my mobile phone (which again uses the same digital time signal) insists on running 2 minutes slow according to my ticket machine no matter how often I reset my phone.

As an Inspector in London the rule was that you was not allowed to book a driver for running early unless you was able to prove that he was running more than 2 minutes early... despite the Traffic Commissioner's 1 minute "window" drivers are allowed 2 minutes early running to allow for these discrepancies in clocks.

Having dealt with passenger complaints in the past, if this had been passed to me to deal with I would have deemed that the passenger was at fault for these reasons:

1. she had been waiting at the stop from 1715
2. at 1725 when the bus was already loading she decided to walk away for whatever reason
3. The driver left within the 2 minute window allowed at law, therefore he had done nothing wrong.

Especially from the description of the way she reacted to what happened and to being challenged for the way she was acting this sounds like a case of someone who makes bad decisions and then just cannot accept that it is in any way their own fault...

Oh and well done to the kids around for picking her up on the way she was acting!

A very sensible posting. I'd just like to add, though, that a document I read in the last few months that had emanated from the Senior Traffic Commissioner and was being circulated for comments alluded to the high proportion of complaints by the public to them about early running (in many cases, of five minutes or more), particularly mid-route. This can be worse than infuriating because, as Beverley Bell wrote, there is NO EXCUSE for early running, whereas there can be a myriad for late running. I believe (and I no longer have the document to hand) that she actually proposed the formal abolition of the 'one minute early being acceptable' ruling, so that, in effect, that grace period of 2 minutes you referred to became 1 minute. Now, I've neither been a bus driver or inspector, and I suspect if I had I wouldn't have found favour with her words, but it is a problem and, in many parts of the country and on many routes, there might not be another bus for one or two hours. Buses need every supporter they can find, and what better than a satisfied passenger?

 

[randyrippley]

so she had to wait 16 minutes for the next bus? Fuss over nothing. If she'd had to wait another hour then she may have something to complain about. However paying a visit to the loo five minutes before departure time is just plain dumb.
As for the kids, good for them. They were bright enough to spot an idiot and treat her as she deserved.

By the way there is an inconsistency in the original story - you say she'd been waiting since 19.15 for a 17.31 bus?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It's ironic to be discussing such a situation on a rail forum. It was railways that first created a genuine need for Standard Time from which came the idea of mass synchronisation of time pieces. Sadly it was my experience in the bus industry that in spite of ticket machine clocks being the obvious safe reference for use by drivers they were in practice just about the least reliable time keepers out there! It certainly used to be the case that synchronising ticket machine clocks was not by a continuous reception of an automated public signal but relied on being transferred via the driver's module from the depot signing on machine and subsequently subject to any variations in the vehicle's electrical output. Perhaps it would be better if bus companies simply issued their drivers with suitable automated watches just as happens in the railway industry but given the penny pinching attitude which seems to prevail among bus operators I don't expect it will happen.

 

[vicbury]

It's ironic to be discussing such a situation on a rail forum. It was railways that first created a genuine need for Standard Time from which came the idea of mass synchronisation of time pieces. Sadly it was my experience in the bus industry that in spite of ticket machine clocks being the obvious safe reference for use by drivers they were in practice just about the least reliable time keepers out there! It certainly used to be the case that synchronising ticket machine clocks was not by a continuous reception of an automated public signal but relied on being transferred via the driver's module from the depot signing on machine and subsequently subject to any variations in the vehicle's electrical output. Perhaps it would be better if bus companies simply issued their drivers with suitable automated watches just as happens in the railway industry but given the penny pinching attitude which seems to prevail among bus operators I don't expect it will happen.

Surely modern ticket machines have their clocks synchronised via the Internet otherwise their real time tracking would always be out. Issuing watches seems unnecessary given the technology available.

Amazing that the vehicles electrical output would affect the time on the ticket machine! I once asked a driver why he left 8 minutes early on one journey cue a puzzled look at the ticket machine followed by his watch followed by much cursing!

 

[Hophead]

Noticed an electronic display on a Brighton & Hove bus just last night - just above the drivers eye-line in the cab. Seemed to have a traffic-light sort of indication as to time-keeping against stops en-route from what I could see - I'm sure some of you know more.

Not too sure how much use the driver was making of it, though - the countdown at Old Steine took a fair old while to count down from "4 mins" to "due".

 

[edwin_m]

Surely modern ticket machines have their clocks synchronised via the Internet otherwise their real time tracking would always be out. Issuing watches seems unnecessary given the technology available.

Amazing that the vehicles electrical output would affect the time on the ticket machine! I once asked a driver why he left 8 minutes early on one journey cue a puzzled look at the ticket machine followed by his watch followed by much cursing!

I assume real time information systems would not only synchronise the ticket machine clock but also ensure that "management" can track the precise position and time of each bus and review this information later. Certainly on the few occasions I've reported significant early running to Nottingham City Transport their reply has explicitly confirmed that my allegation was correct. They also say something like "this has been raised with the driver involved" - but I wouldn't expect them to give out details of exactly what action was taken.

Avoiding any sort of early running must be a fine art - what happens if there is a traffic signal that imparts a random delay of up to say a minute, and the following stop is unsuitable for a bus to wait without blocking traffic? If the maximum wait is built into the schedule at this point then when the bus arrives on a green it will be early at the next stop, so the schedule should assume it gets the green with the possibility of it running a minute late if it doesn't. This then needs to be rectified by scheduling a longer wait at the next place where it is convenient for the bus to stand - incidentally moreorless the same "recovery time" principle as used for trains.

Alternatively, and echoing a debate that frequently arises here about closing train doors before departure, perhaps all published bus times should be brought forward by a minute or two but without changing the schedules given to the drivers?

 

[vicbury]

Noticed an electronic display on a Brighton & Hove bus just last night - just above the drivers eye-line in the cab. Seemed to have a traffic-light sort of indication as to time-keeping against stops en-route from what I could see - I'm sure some of you know more.

Not too sure how much use the driver was making of it, though - the countdown at Old Steine took a fair old while to count down from "4 mins" to "due".

First has this in the West of England too.

If I remember correctly it's red for anything above 1 minute early, green for 1 minute early to 5 minutes late, and orange for anything later. Possibly goes red if exceedingly late!

 

[PeterC]

This brings back "happy" memories of being a student in Aberystyth in the early 70s. The last bus to Borth ran back in service so in theory there was a good journey back from the campus to my digs in the town after the union bar closed. In practice the driver put his foot down after loading in Aber and did the round trip as fast as possible and was generally over 15 minutes early at that point.

 

[philthetube]

Had the bus been fully loaded, and we have no info either way then it would be reasonable for the driver to depart. I certainly would have when I was bus driving.

 

[PeterC]

Had the bus been fully loaded, and we have no info either way then it would be reasonable for the driver to depart. I certainly would have when I was bus driving.

I have also known that used as an excuse to justify not waiting at an intermediate timing point on a bus that was well loaded but nowhere near full.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Had the bus been fully loaded, and we have no info either way then it would be reasonable for the driver to depart. I certainly would have when I was bus driving.

If "fully loaded" meant "full to the official capacity", then yes, but that is not all that common in most places these days.

If there was one spare place on the bus, it should not have departed.

 

[jon0844]

This brings back "happy" memories of being a student in Aberystyth in the early 70s. The last bus to Borth ran back in service so in theory there was a good journey back from the campus to my digs in the town after the union bar closed. In practice the driver put his foot down after loading in Aber and did the round trip as fast as possible and was generally over 15 minutes early at that point.

Did that driver move to Hatfield and work the Uno 602 by any chance? Exact same thing. Last bus raced along, and often skipped the last 4-5 stops by taking a short cut. Must have got to the depot a good 15 minutes early, and presumably never told off either.

(Not so easy now if someone complained, as the GPS data logger would show the route, time AND speed.

I'm quite pleased to say that early running has reduced massively since Uno got new ticket machines, but I do still see problems on occasion. Often this is down to the fact that a ticket machine might not be working, with the added problem of taking fares. Some will be happy that in many cases drivers will let people travel for free, but when HCC is itching to make further cuts, free riders (or even those showing seasons and passes) aren't counted so it's NOT a good thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(Not so easy now if someone complained, as the GPS data logger would show the route, time AND speed.

I waged a campaign about serious early running (often, and almost consistently, 10 minutes early) on a last bus in MK some years ago, involving both the Council and the operator (it was a tendered service). Nothing was ever properly done about it - even a timetable change to stop people missing it would have done.

The bus company eventually introduced GPS tracking, and the next day the problem ceased totally, with the bus now regularly running to time.

Funny, that.

I also had an issue with off-route running on a fairly winding tendered route - the drivers would often cut a bit out, missing my stop (you'd see them doing it - the cut was visible from the stop). I complained about this for some time, and nothing was properly done. It was an issue of attitude - "there's often nobody there so why bother?", said one culprit when I caught him out having travelled from a different stop one day. That one was never solved, because the route was withdrawn before GPS got there.

I don't like the idea of staff surveillance, but if they can't be trusted...

 

[Robertj21a]

Just a general point, in case not all are aware. The bus is only 'timed' at the timing points specified in the timetable, not any intermediate stops. Consequently, it is quite likely on a quiet run, with timing points some way apart, for a bus to be running early - many operators do put notices in their timetables to the effect that any intermediate times are only an estimate.

 

[ashworth]

Just a general point, in case not all are aware. The bus is only 'timed' at the timing points specified in the timetable, not any intermediate stops. Consequently, it is quite likely on a quiet run, with timing points some way apart, for a bus to be running early - many operators do put notices in their timetables to the effect that any intermediate times are only an estimate.

I've noticed that quite regularly when travelling over a long full route, especially in quiet rural areas, that buses do a lot of waiting at a series of timing points along the route. What I don't understand is why on many of these routes the buses sometimes travel at an alarming speed along winding country roads, only to have to keep stopping and waiting for quite long periods at each timing point. This must be very frustrating for people wanting to board at the stop before the timing point, when the bus is significantly early and then waits at the next stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just a general point, in case not all are aware. The bus is only 'timed' at the timing points specified in the timetable, not any intermediate stops. Consequently, it is quite likely on a quiet run, with timing points some way apart, for a bus to be running early - many operators do put notices in their timetables to the effect that any intermediate times are only an estimate.

My view on this is that it is better, where this is the case, not to interpolate times but simply to show the time of the previous timing point. Then this cannot be an issue. It might result in the odd complaint about late running, but an explanation about that (and that the bus arrived on time at the destination, which is the only thing that actually matters in terms of late running) should placate, and nobody will miss their bus.

 

[Robertj21a]

My view on this is that it is better, where this is the case, not to interpolate times but simply to show the time of the previous timing point. Then this cannot be an issue. It might result in the odd complaint about late running, but an explanation about that (and that the bus arrived on time at the destination, which is the only thing that actually matters in terms of late running) should placate, and nobody will miss their bus.

But that wouldn't really work with the real-time systems used, with GPS, where every individual stop can be interrogated, by anybody.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that wouldn't really work with the real-time systems used, with GPS, where every individual stop can be interrogated, by anybody.

In what way would it not work?

 

[Robertj21a]

In what way would it not work?

Well, if I've understood you correctly, you're suggesting that only the last timing point time is quoted (?). The real-time information is designed to give you an accurate time for when the bus will arrive at your stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, if I've understood you correctly, you're suggesting that only the last timing point time is quoted (?). The real-time information is designed to give you an accurate time for when the bus will arrive at your stop.

Ah, I see you point - you mean that the timetable interpolations are used to work out the future real-time timings?

That said, better that those are a bit "late" than that people are confused by inaccurate or non-guaranteed timing information - and if you have more than a few minutes between timing points, you need more timing points anyway - ideally there should be a timing point for every location where it is safe for a bus to wait for time.

 

[Robertj21a]

Ah, I see you point - you mean that the timetable interpolations are used to work out the future real-time timings?

That said, better that those are a bit "late" than that people are confused by inaccurate or non-guaranteed timing information - and if you have more than a few minutes between timing points, you need more timing points anyway - ideally there should be a timing point for every location where it is safe for a bus to wait for time.

I understand what you are saying but the whole point of the GPS/real-time software is to give accurate timings at all stages of every trip. Intermediate timings can't be made 'artificially late' if the bus has to be on time at each timing point. I'm not sure, but I think timing points have to be registered - to facilitate any formal monitoring - with VOSA (or whatever they're called this week) - hence why operators are keen to keep them to a minimum !

 

[edwin_m]

The timetable and other static information could show the time at the last timing point, but real time systems could make a best estimate based on how the bus is actually running.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understand what you are saying but the whole point of the GPS/real-time software is to give accurate timings at all stages of every trip. Intermediate timings can't be made 'artificially late' if the bus has to be on time at each timing point. I'm not sure, but I think timing points have to be registered - to facilitate any formal monitoring - with VOSA (or whatever they're called this week) - hence why operators are keen to keep them to a minimum !

It's hardly an overhead to register the complete timetable in these IT-driven days.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I've noticed that quite regularly when travelling over a long full route, especially in quiet rural areas, that buses do a lot of waiting at a series of timing points along the route. What I don't understand is why on many of these routes the buses sometimes travel at an alarming speed along winding country roads, only to have to keep stopping and waiting for quite long periods at each timing point. This must be very frustrating for people wanting to board at the stop before the timing point, when the bus is significantly early and then waits at the next stop.

In terms of "alarming speed", unless you are suggesting the bus drivers are breaking the speed limit, then the likelihood is they are travelling just fine.

In terms of going at speed between stops and then waiting, one rule I use when travelling is "get myself to the next point as quickly as possible because you don't know if you will be delayed". So sure, the buses could travel a bit slower and not have to wait as long as timing points. But that may well then mean there is less slack in the timings to make up time for them getting stuck in traffic.

 

[Robertj21a]

The timetable and other static information could show the time at the last timing point, but real time systems could make a best estimate based on how the bus is actually running.

That's what happens on many timetables at present.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's hardly an overhead to register the complete timetable in these IT-driven days.

It's not the overhead of registering, it's the fear of giving VOSA more than the bare minimum of opportunities to catch them out !