Buying tickets for others with a Railcard discount

[yorkie]

If I buy a ticket for someone who holds a Railcard, for example if I buy a Senior Railcard discounted ticket, could a TOC view me with suspicion and/or attempt to put the burden on me to somehow demonstrate I didn't buy the ticket for myself?

Has anyone been in the position of a TOC accusing them of purchasing a ticket for themselves with a Railcard discount?

It's also quite easy, on some (not all) apps/sites to accidentally purchase a Railcard discounted ticket, having previously done so in a recent transaction, due to the Railcard being remembered.

Would a TOC only make such an accusation for past purchases if they caught a passenger using a discounted ticket who did not hold such a Railcard, or could they make this accusation simply due to booking tickets for another person?

I have regularly bought tickets for others; less so these days than in the past, though only today I did buy four sets of returns for Senior Railcard holders, though on that occasion I did so using an account registered in the name of one of those holders, but I could easily have done so using an account registered in my name.

Can we trust the TOCs to behave honourably and appropriately or should we be concerned?

 

[MotCO]

Given that TOCs can access purchase histories, would someone be interested if sometimes you bought non-railcard discounted tickets and sometimes bought railcard discounted tickets?

 

[sheff1]

Can we trust the TOCs to behave honourably and appropriately or should we be concerned?

I am surprised you need to ask given the number of examples on here (many reported by your good self) of some TOCs acting anything but honourably.

Whether one should be personally concerned depends on individual attitude to challenging such behaviour.

 

[30907]

I am surprised you need to ask given the number of examples on herve (many reported by your good self) of some TOCs acting anything but honourably.

A TOC (or other supplier) investigating someone's purchase history without any evidence that an offence had been committed would be acting illegally under GDPR, not just dishonourably.

I would therefore say that they could not legally accuse you of an offence on the basis of buying tickets for ANOther, and I do not recall any such case on here.

They could certainly investigate once you are found committing a ticketing offence involving railcard discount.

 

[tomuk]

If I buy a ticket for someone who holds a Railcard, for example if I buy a Senior Railcard discounted ticket, could a TOC view me with suspicion and/or attempt to put the burden on me to somehow demonstrate I didn't buy the ticket for myself?

Has anyone been in the position of a TOC accusing them of purchasing a ticket for themselves with a Railcard discount?

It's also quite easy, on some (not all) apps/sites to accidentally purchase a Railcard discounted ticket, having previously done so in a recent transaction, due to the Railcard being remembered.

Would a TOC only make such an accusation for past purchases if they caught a passenger using a discounted ticket who did not hold such a Railcard, or could they make this accusation simply due to booking tickets for another person?

I have regularly bought tickets for others; less so these days than in the past, though only today I did buy four sets of returns for Senior Railcard holders, though on that occasion I did so using an account registered in the name of one of those holders, but I could easily have done so using an account registered in my name.

Can we trust the TOCs to behave honourably and appropriately or should we be concerned?

I assume your are aware of the near £6000 out of court settlement GWR are pursuing following a trawl of a passengers five year purchase history after being stopped for an expired railcard. This history included purchases for the passengers relatives using different railcards?

 

[yorkie]

I assume your are aware of the near £6000 out of court settlement GWR are pursuing following a trawl of a passengers five year purchase history after being stopped for an expired railcard. This history included purchases for the passengers relatives using different railcards?

I am aware of that and I understand there is a big initiative across the rail industry to attempt to detect fraud, hence this thread.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A TOC (or other supplier) investigating someone's purchase history without any evidence that an offence had been committed would be acting illegally under GDPR, not just dishonourably.

Would you kindly walk us through why this would be illegal under GDPR?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I only buy tickets for others does that look a liitle strange?

 

[Snow1964]

Unfortunately convenience comes as a trade off, if you register for an account makes it easier on subsequent transactions, but then you have a history trail.

If you just make spot purchases (as a guest), or even easier at a ticket office or TVM then there is no history (especially if use cash).

To some extent the passenger chooses how much info they want stored which potentially could be used to check up on them by their decision on how to buy.

The problem is the ticketing sites have made it a faff to register separately different members of a family, or buy multiple tickets using different railcards even if travelling as a group. So inevitably for anyone buying tickets for their family, rail fraud systems struggle to differentiate from patterns of a single traveller.

If I buy a ticket for a parent with railcard, a ticket for my child (with 16-25) railcard, then ticket for me (no railcard) can't put them in same basket in one go, got to add them bit by bit. Even if I could it wouldn't understand if next time just 2 were travelling. No fraud, but how could anyone scan data and come to a conclusion.

But big question is should a family account (which is valid) be used as a fraud investigation tool, even though clearly going to be unreliable as journeys and users will vary.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

A TOC (or other supplier) investigating someone's purchase history without any evidence that an offence had been committed would be acting illegally under GDPR, not just dishonourably.

I would therefore say that they could not legally accuse you of an offence on the basis of buying tickets for ANOther, and I do not recall any such case on here.

They could certainly investigate once you are found committing a ticketing offence involving railcard discount.

This is absolute rubbish.

The whole purpose of an investigation is to first see if any evidence exists, and then begin to gather that evidence. You do not need evidence to start an investigation. GDPR barely even comes into it. Sometimes the ONLY evidence is a witness statement, an interview record or even the refusal to attend an interview itself.

You only need really need to start off with a suspicion - that could be a completely anonymous tip off, it could be output from a report/machine learning, it could be from a customer being stopped. You do not need to have travelled whatsoever to commit some ticketing (and/or fraud) offences.

An investigation is netural - PACE largely dictates how that investigation will be carried out, but in essence, an investigator is considering and looking for ALL evidence, including that which could put someone in the clear, not just evidence that supports a conviction.

In response to Yorkie - the circumstances as to how somebody will be 'detected' as a customer requiring further investigation are dynamic - there is no set criteria. The software and other systems are constantly evolving/developing, and will constantly improve. Machine learning/AI will refine the processes further in time. If you are concerned, just keep the relevant notes or records, i.e. who you purchased the ticket for. If you want to be 'extra safe' - satisfy yourself that the person you're buying the ticket for does indeed have a railcard etc - keep a copy if you're concerned. Basic due dilligence which I am sure you already mostly do!

I'd also be making sure that anybody I was purchasing tickets for/on behalf of was trustworthy/sensible enough not to misuse that ticket/discount etc too. I doubt anyone would buy tickets for someone they didn't trust though, but if for a child etc, I'd certainly be setting expectations as to their conduct.

This forum does need to take note that the Fraud Act 2006 is going to feature more extensively going forwards, for all sorts of matters, including inchoate offences (attempts to, conspires to commit fraud etc). With an increasing amount of public sector responsibility in our railways, this was inevitable, especially as cracking down/sounding tough on fraud is a vote winner and newspaper pleaser.

It is somewhat amusing that certain forum members seem to believe it is TOCs profiteering - given that all revenue is handed over to the treasury via the DfT and the (relatively fixed) management fee is hardly likely to be based on how many out of court settlements are made, even at volume, the revenue from them would still pale into insignifgance in the grand scheme of things, compared to say, delay minutes. It is a very genuine crackdown on fraud, and using the data in a joined up way amongst operators and retailers, something that has historically been poor.

This is also picking up speed, and certain TOCs are beginning to align themselves with it:

Government Counter Fraud Function and Profession

Protecting public services and fighting economic crime.

www.gov.uk

 

[fandroid]

I'm pleased that Tazi Hupefi states that investigators will be looking for ALL evidence, but I worry that some doing investigations haven't actually got that message

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm pleased that Tazi Hupefi states that investigators will be looking for ALL evidence, but I worry that some doing investigations haven't actually got that message

Investigators will always gather evidence - the issue is disclosure. They should make available all unused material. There have been many cases where for example, the police, have not been exactly forthcoming.

The other issue is confirmation bias; there will always be the urge to find evidence to support our suspicions and minimise evidence which runs counter to our beliefs.

 

[fandroid]

Investigators will always gather evidence - the issue is disclosure. They should make available all unused material. There have been many cases where for example, the police, have not been exactly forthcoming.

The other issue is confirmation bias; there will always be the urge to find evidence to support our suspicions and minimise evidence which runs counter to our beliefs.

We've seen cases where a TOC has apparently ignored contrary evidence in their hurry to demand large sums of cash from a passenger. The adversarial system at its worst

 

[JBuchananGB]

It would never cross my mind that I couldn't buy tickets for other people either online or at a station. In the past I have often made excursions by train when the other members in the group relied on me to buy all the tickets and then reimbursed me. I remember well booking a group of 8 tickets London to York and back, 7 railcard holders, and one non-railcard holder (me). All 7 of my friends were happy to reimburse me 1/8th of the total. (The surprising thing about that journey was the the seat reservations came on 2 coupons each way, 1 coupon for the 7 discounted tickets, and 1 coupon for the non-discounted ticket!) On another occasion 6 of us arrived at a station and purchased Groupsave tickets, which I paid for with my credit card, and the other 5 reimbursed me in cash. Once I booked a Northern Duo online and had the tickets posted to me. Only issued on 2 coupons, an Outward for 2 passengers, and a Return for 2 passengers. This confused the guard on the train, and made it a bit tricky going through the barriers at Manchester. I have also bought tickets where one traveller (me) had a railcard, and the other traveller was a child. Issued as e-tickets and printed out. And once I booked a so-called Fixed Family ticket for one adult and one child, issued as one CCST coupon for both passengers. Also tricky to use at barriers.
At the moment I hold a railcard and my wife doesn't, which makes for some curious ticket purchases.

 

[30907]

Would you kindly walk us through why this would be illegal under GDPR?

Apologies. I thought there had to be grounds for suspicion before you could trawl through purchase history. Evidently not.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Investigators will always gather evidence - the issue is disclosure. They should make available all unused material. There have been many cases where for example, the police, have not been exactly forthcoming.

The other issue is confirmation bias; there will always be the urge to find evidence to support our suspicions and minimise evidence which runs counter to our beliefs.

Only in the event that court proceedings are initiated.

Drip feeding (selective disclosure) or very limited prior disclosure at all is a perfectly acceptable and widely used investigation technique. However, neither party to proceedings can 'ambush' the other at court itself.

There are disclosure obligations from the very start of an investigation, however, such as noting all relevant (and irrelevant) material. Ordinarily, there will be a 'relevance' test at some point, where essentially the investigator decides what is actually important (from both perspectives) and what can be disregarded, albeit noted and information about what is unusued (a schedule) is available to the defence if necessary, who can then argue that they want XYZ to be disclosed.

 

[Adam Williams]

Machine learning/AI will refine the processes further in time

I hope organisations are carefully considering compliance with Art. 22 before doing this. Performance of a contract/legal obligation is not a blanket get-out clause, and gradient descent is not some infallible magic - as much as portrayals in the media would have you believe. There needs to be a human in the loop and a culture of fully reviewing all of the data before any decisions are made or investigations commenced.

 

[RT4038]

If I buy a ticket for someone who holds a Railcard, for example if I buy a Senior Railcard discounted ticket, could a TOC view me with suspicion and/or attempt to put the burden on me to somehow demonstrate I didn't buy the ticket for myself?

Has anyone been in the position of a TOC accusing them of purchasing a ticket for themselves with a Railcard discount?

It's also quite easy, on some (not all) apps/sites to accidentally purchase a Railcard discounted ticket, having previously done so in a recent transaction, due to the Railcard being remembered.

Would a TOC only make such an accusation for past purchases if they caught a passenger using a discounted ticket who did not hold such a Railcard, or could they make this accusation simply due to booking tickets for another person?

I have regularly bought tickets for others; less so these days than in the past, though only today I did buy four sets of returns for Senior Railcard holders, though on that occasion I did so using an account registered in the name of one of those holders, but I could easily have done so using an account registered in my name.

Can we trust the TOCs to behave honourably and appropriately or should we be concerned?

Just don't get caught travelling with a railcard discounted ticket, without holding a valid railcard. Then a look at your previous history may well be difficult for you. Merely purchasing for others is less likely to raise an issue, I would think.

 

[35B]

The interesting part of this discussion is how much circumstantial evidence is being used, when in the majority of examples given, it does not prove misuse.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would you kindly walk us through why this would be illegal under GDPR?

Because there would be no suspicion of a criminal offence. The police can’t just rifle through my bank statements unless they have reasonable suspicion I was up to something illegal.

 

[Haywain]

Because there would be no suspicion of a criminal offence. The police can’t just rifle through my bank statements unless they have reasonable suspicion I was up to something illegal.

No. But the bank will be monitoring deposits.

 

[TUC]

of course, if all ontrain ticket checking staff could be relied upon to do their jobs rather than sitting in the rear cab for two hours this would be an academic question as the validity of the railcard and the ticket would be confirmed during the actual journey.

 

[Puffing Devil]

We've seen cases where a TOC has apparently ignored contrary evidence in their hurry to demand large sums of cash from a passenger. The adversarial system at its worst

Confirmation bias!

 

[redreni]

Happy to be corrected but I can't think of anything in the NRCoT or anywhere else that precludes buying tickets for others or buying a railcard-discounted ticket when you are not entitled to the discount?

What's prohibited is buying or using a railcard for which you are not eligible, or using a railcard-discounted ticket without holding the relevant railcard (or when you do hold the railcard but you obtained it fraudulently).

When you buy a railcard-discounted ticket at a ticket office they want to see the railcard (I'm not sure what happens if it's a photocard railcard and the photo is clearly of somebody else - presumably you just explain that you're buying the ticket on the railcard holder's behalf and that's fine?). Ticket vending machines tend not to say anything, in my experience.

When you buy it online there is normally a message telling you (often wrongly) that all passengers must hold the railcard that you have selected (even though some railcards enable more than one person to travel on one railcard). But forgetting about the failure to capture that nuance, the message saying the passenger must hold the railcard is interesting because it could say you must hold the railcard and it doesn't.

So in conclusion I would say if a TOC wanted to prosecute somebody for abusing railcard discounts they would need evidence of a person who doesn't legitimately hold the relevant railcard actually travelling on a railcard-discounted ticket. I don't think evidence of them buying such tickets would be enough. Even if they had done so regularly.

 

[fandroid]

Happy to be corrected but I can't think of anything in the NRCoT or anywhere else that precludes buying tickets for others or buying a railcard-discounted ticket when you are not entitled to the discount?

What's prohibited is buying or using a railcard for which you are not eligible, or using a railcard-discounted ticket without holding the relevant railcard (or when you do hold the railcard but you obtained it fraudulently).

When you buy a railcard-discounted ticket at a ticket office they want to see the railcard (I'm not sure what happens if it's a photocard railcard and the photo is clearly of somebody else - presumably you just explain that you're buying the ticket on the railcard holder's behalf and that's fine?). Ticket vending machines tend not to say anything, in my experience.

When you buy it online there is normally a message telling you (often wrongly) that all passengers must hold the railcard that you have selected (even though some railcards enable more than one person to travel on one railcard). But forgetting about the failure to capture that nuance, the message saying the passenger must hold the railcard is interesting because it could say you must hold the railcard and it doesn't.

So in conclusion I would say if a TOC wanted to prosecute somebody for abusing railcard discounts they would need evidence of a person who doesn't legitimately hold the relevant railcard actually travelling on a railcard-discounted ticket. I don't think evidence of them buying such tickets would be enough. Even if they had done so regularly.

It's doubtful whether the TOC would go as far as prosecution for simply buying a Railcard discounted ticket, but they aren't risking much by threatening to, and asking for a significant sum of money in exchange for a promise not to.

It's driven by the imbalance in the field of justice between a big and experienced corporation and an inexperienced individual whose only realistic recourse to help in confidently calling the TOC's bluff is to pay for it. It's lose-lose for the individual in most cases.

 

[redreni]

It's doubtful whether the TOC would go as far as prosecution for simply buying a Railcard discounted ticket, but they aren't risking much by threatening to, and asking for a significant sum of money in exchange for a promise not to.

It's driven by the imbalance in the field of justice between a big and experienced corporation and an inexperienced individual whose only realistic recourse to help in confidently calling the TOC's bluff is to pay for it. It's lose-lose for the individual in most cases.

I've no idea if that's how TOCs think, but if there's even the faintest hint of the kind of thinking you're suggesting in play, it just goes to show why they shouldn't have the right to bring criminal prosecutions, imho.

Because if they had to send their cases to the CPS for a decision and they were sending over hopeless cases in which they'd been bluffing to try to get a settlement, the CPS would obviously chuck those cases out but more importantly, if it happened several times, they'd write a stern letter telling the TOC to knock it off.

 

[rmt4ever]

If I buy a ticket for someone who holds a Railcard, for example if I buy a Senior Railcard discounted ticket, could a TOC view me with suspicion and/or attempt to put the burden on me to somehow demonstrate I didn't buy the ticket for myself?

Has anyone been in the position of a TOC accusing them of purchasing a ticket for themselves with a Railcard discount?

It's also quite easy, on some (not all) apps/sites to accidentally purchase a Railcard discounted ticket, having previously done so in a recent transaction, due to the Railcard being remembered.

Would a TOC only make such an accusation for past purchases if they caught a passenger using a discounted ticket who did not hold such a Railcard, or could they make this accusation simply due to booking tickets for another person?

I have regularly bought tickets for others; less so these days than in the past, though only today I did buy four sets of returns for Senior Railcard holders, though on that occasion I did so using an account registered in the name of one of those holders, but I could easily have done so using an account registered in my name.

Can we trust the TOCs to behave honourably and appropriately or should we be concerned?

I tried to purchase a ticket for my old Gran at Paddington booking office, near platform 1. It was a single with her old person railcard, to West Ealing on the Heathrow connect or Greenford train, can’t remember which, but it was departing from the end towards platform 14. As we had come off the H&C (before you had to walk miles round) we was near the departure platform and as she was old, I sat her on a bench and went to buy the ticket for her from the booking office (if she had walked over we would have missed the train).

They refused to sell it unless they physically viewed my gran with her railcard. I was speechless, so paid full price for her.

Actually correction, I just remembered, I was so outraged I refused to pay for her and we bunked her fare. I paid my full fare. Can’t remember how we got us both through the gateline tho

 

[Hadders]

I tried to purchase a ticket for my old Gran at Paddington booking office, near platform 1. It was a single with her old person railcard, to West Ealing on the Heathrow connect or Greenford train, can’t remember which, but it was departing from the end towards platform 14. As we had come off the H&C (before you had to walk miles round) we was near the departure platform and as she was old, I sat her on a bench and went to buy the ticket for her from the booking office (if she had walked over we would have missed the train).

They refused to sell it unless they physically viewed my gran with her railcard. I was speechless, so paid full price for her.

Actually correction, I just remembered, I was so outraged I refused to pay for her and we bunked her fare. I paid my full fare. Can’t remember how we got us both through the gateline tho

Why didn’t you just use the ticket machine?