Buying tickets from another station

[Deerfold]

As an aside, a friend who lives in Lincoln mentioned how annoying it was not being able to buy tickets for her journey at her local station.

Although Lincoln does now have a direct service to London it does not suit the times my friend needs to travel at, nor does the walk between the two stations at Newark so she drives to Newark and gets the train to London.

She doesn't buy any special type of ticket, Open return or off-peak return.

I was surprised by this, but she said she's been told - and there is a notice up saying they cannot (or will not, I'm not sure of the phrasing) sell tickets for other train companies.

Are they allowed to do this? I was very surprised to hear about it. I thought it might be a peak-time restriction, which I could understand, but she was trying to buy the ticket on a Sunday to avoid the rush at Newark on the Monday.

 

[GodAtum]

You buy any ticket online and collect at the station if that's suitable for your friend.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, but she was hoping to avoid all the queues at Newark - including at the ticket machines.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have bought tickets at Nottingham for travel between leeds & newark in the past, but that was from the advanced booking windows, not the tickets for immediate travel windows. Does Lincoln have a similarily separated ticket office?

 

[tony_mac]

I have done this frequently when splitting tickets, and never had any problem.

they cannot (or will not, I'm not sure of the phrasing) sell tickets for other train companies

Surely impartial retailing rules do not allow that? (it it's an accurate description)

 

[clagmonster]

I believe that under impartial retailing regulations, companies are allowed to have a small number (I think 1/3 of the total) of ticket windows dedicated to their own companies ticket sales, but this must be clearly signposted. The remaining ticket windows must impartially sell all tickets for use on BR unless they have reason to suspect they would be used for fare evasion. Could it be the case that Lincoln Central has a number of operator specific windows, and your friend tried to use one of those?

With the buying in advance over the internet and collecting from the machine idea, it is possible to ask to collect the tickets from any such machine in the country. The only restriction is that you should allow 2 hours between booking and collection. Also, if booking a week or more in advance, you can get the tickets sent out by first class post for free.

 

[glynn80]

I believe that under impartial retailing regulations, companies are allowed to have a small number (I think 1/3 of the total) of ticket windows dedicated to their own companies ticket sales, but this must be clearly signposted. The remaining ticket windows must impartially sell all tickets for use on BR unless they have reason to suspect they would be used for fare evasion. Could it be the case that Lincoln Central has a number of operator specific windows, and your friend tried to use one of those?

Correct, although the maximum percentage of ticket windows permitted that are dedicated to the lead retailers own products is actually slightly higher at 49%:

A.7.1.1.2 Dedicated

• A Retail Outlet or point of sale that does not sell the products of all TOCs. Generally it will only sell the products of the TOC that operates it although agreement may be reached to sell the products of other specific TOCs.
• Staff working at dedicated points of sale are not required to give customers impartial (see below) information or advice about Rail Products nor to sell on an impartial basis.
• Dedicated points of sale must be signed to make it clear that they are not impartial (see section A.5.2) (TSA clause 6-28(2)(a)).

...

The Lead Retailer must ensure that at station retail outlets with several sales positions, including those located in a Travel Centre, at least 51% of those open for business at any one time must offer an Impartial service (TSA clause 6-30 (1)(b)).

The remainder can if the TOC wishes, be dedicated to selling the products of its own company. The following example demonstrates the impartiality obligation:
• 6 Sales Positions with 5 open for business
• 3 of those open (60%) are selling impartially
• 2 (40%) are dedicated to selling the tickets of the Lead Retailer only

 

[Deerfold]

I'll check with her that it's all the ticket windows (but I'm assuming so as she left the station without buying the ticket).

If this is the case what can she do?

 

[clagmonster]

Glynn, for these puposes, does a self service ticket machine count as an open sales position?
Deefold, if she is told that all windows are selling tickets for local travel only, she should inform them that they are not complying with impartial retailing regulations, as set out by the retail standards guide, if neccessary asking to speak to someone senior, such as the booking office manager or the station master. If they still don't budge, I would advise writing in to the companies customer relations department, and hopefully you will get results.

 

[paul1609]

I dont think thats correct. i think a train company is obliged to offer all companies tickets from the station you are at. i dont think that its obliged to offer any tickets from other stations.
Clearly most stations do indeed I bought a ticket from Manchester Airport at littlehampton station this lunchtime.

 

[glynn80]

Glynn, for these puposes, does a self service ticket machine count as an open sales position?
Deefold, if she is told that all windows are selling tickets for local travel only, she should inform them that they are not complying with impartial retailing regulations, as set out by the retail standards guide, if neccessary asking to speak to someone senior, such as the booking office manager or the station master. If they still don't budge, I would advise writing in to the companies customer relations department, and hopefully you will get results.

I dont think thats correct. i think a train company is obliged to offer all companies tickets from the station you are at. i dont think that its obliged to offer any tickets from other stations.
Clearly most stations do indeed I bought a ticket from Manchester Airport at littlehampton station this lunchtime.

Firstly to address the point paul1609 brought up, regarding the issue of, are impartial ticket offices required to sell the full ticket range. The answer is that 50% of them must:

• 50% of the Sales Positions open for business and offering an Impartial service must sell the full range of Rail Products (TSA clause 6.30(1)(c)).
• The remainder can, if the operator chooses, be devoted to the sale of specified Rail Products such as Season Tickets or ‘Tickets For Travel Today’.
• When a TOC chooses to restrict sales to certain Rail Products only at one or more Sales Positions, each must be clearly signed so that customers can easily see which Rail Products are sold there (TSA clause 6-30(1)(c)).
• The Full Product Range is defined as those products that the Retail Outlet is capable of selling according to the information listed in Schedule 17.
• Lead Retailers of larger Retail Outlets that incorporate separate Ticket Offices and Travel Centres need to give careful consideration to this rule. A Ticket Office only selling tickets for immediate travel is assumed to be selling a restricted range of tickets. A Travel Centre, offering an information and advance booking service (which includes selling all ticket types, reservations and Railcards) is assumed to be selling the full product range.
• The total number of sales positions in both Ticket Office and Travel Centre combined need to be taken into account in assessing compliance with the 50% Rule. If it is not practicable, due to physical constraints or due to patterns of demand, for at least 50% of the open and impartial sales positions to sell the full product range, then application must be made to DfT Rail for a Derogation (or exception) to this rule.

Now to address clagmonster's issue regarding whether or not Self-Service TIMs are included in the requirement for impartial retailing. This issue was brought up recently (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=396143) and the answer is that the TOC who is Lead Retailer at the station must offer all products for sale from 100% of their self-service TIMs, however this requirement does not apply where the machine is operated by a TOC that is not the Lead Retailer at that station, providing it is made clear that the machine does not offer the full range of fares.

 

[northwichcat]

Business people in Cheshire frequently go to a local station and ask for tickets starting at Crewe, Wilmslow and Warrington and Northern staff don't say we can't sell you a Virgin or London Midland ticket.

 

[Wyvern]

If I ever I had to start my journey at my main station and buy my ticket there, I'd always ask for the return from my local station to wherever just in case there was a local train handy when I returned.

The main line train was Midland Mainline or Virgin, but the local train was Central.

Never had a problem.

 

[Deerfold]

No, I've never had a problem either -and she's quite happily bought tickets from other stations before (but not this one). I was wondering if it's an annoyance she'll have to live with or if they are actually breaking any rules - opinon seems to be split so far...

 

[yorkie]

No, I've never had a problem either -and she's quite happily bought tickets from other stations before (but not this one). I was wondering if it's an annoyance she'll have to live with or if they are actually breaking any rules - opinon seems to be split so far...

Believe me, Glynn80 is right, and the quote he provides is authoritative. There is absolutely no doubt that they must sell tickets from other stations. It's even in the test that new staff should take (Glynn80 may be able to provide the applicable sample question).

EMT are well known for not obeying ATOC rules, particularly at places like Nottingham which is an example which crops up from time to time. Their head office cannot be trusted to know what the rules are either, some of them make up rules and pretend they are ATOC rules. They also make statements that are totally misleading when it comes to penalty fares. They simply don't realise that some of us are rather more capable than they think....

If EMT do not correct this situation then you should contact both Passenger Focus and ATOC.

ATOC's contact details can be found here http://www.atoc.org/contact.asp

Don't let EMT get away with breaking the rules of impartial retailing.
EMT are owned by Stagecoach Group , the chairman is Brian Souter. I have my own thoughts on this company, the group, and the chairman's controversial acts and I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

 

[OwlMan]

According to the plan on the National Rail Site Lincoln has two ticket windows in the main part of the station and two ticket windows in the travel centre.
You will probably find that the two main windows only do tickets for immediate travel, to keep the queues shorter, and any other tickets need to be got from the Travel Centre (this is how other stations act)

Peter

 

[snowhill]

Hi

I travel frequently, as a train spotter and photographer, using split tickets (have offered up as many a 4 to the conductor when traveling long distance) using my Senior Railcard and I have never, ever, been refused whether at a main station or a small one clerk type booking office.

My local station Widney Manor has only one member of staff, the booking clerk, and they have happily supplied me with tickets originating in all sorts of areas (inc Scotland) and for add-ons (to London Travelcards) such as Rainham to Tilbury and Orpington to Ashford.

I tend to book the day before travel or on the day, although it can be earlier

My advice, if refused, would be to ask the Booking Office clerk, politely, on what grounds you are being refused and then ask them, again politely, for the name and address of the person you should address your complaint to.

Dave

 

[yorkie]

..and for add-ons (to London Travelcards) such as Rainham to Tilbury and Orpington to Ashford...

Actually if you are buying point to point tickets in combination with a Travelcard you can benefit from true add-ons by buying from 'Boundary Zone 6'. This lowers the price and means you do not have to call at any intermediate stations. e.g. Boundary Zone 6 to Ashford CDR is £10.35 instead of £10.85 from Orpington. Strictly speaking the Orpington ticket isn't valid on trains that are non-stop to Tonbbridge, whereas from Boundary Zone 6 it is valid (in reality you are unlikely to be challenged, but it is better to save 50p and be valid).

 

[Dolive22]

If the OP's friend has to make a fuss, she could also point out that their sign doesn't say they won't advise on other tickets, only that it won't sell them. It's very whiney and technical but if they need prodding....

Is there a friend or relative of the OPs friend who could buy the tickets?

New post below

I have just seen something that suggests that East Cost will be running a service to Kings Cross, so hopefully this won't be an issue for much longer.

 

[yorkie]

I have just seen something that suggests that East Cost will be running a service to Kings Cross, so hopefully this won't be an issue for much longer.

I think it's still an issue generally, and others could be affected, e.g. people buying split tickets. EMT have to honour their commitments to sell tickets from any station to any station, and there's no way the addition of a direct train should in any way diminish that responsibility.

 

[Dolive22]

I agree entirely that they should follow the rules. I am stickler for rules and regs (some who know me would says to a fault). I just meant that it would be less of a practical problem for this person.

What effect would it have that an East Coast train to london went from the station she was buying the ticket from? Presumably it must be possible to buy a ticket for a train from that station?

 

[yorkie]

I agree entirely that they should follow the rules. I am stickler for rules and regs (some who know me would says to a fault). I just meant that it would be less of a practical problem for this person.

What effect would it have that an East Coast train to london went from the station she was buying the ticket from? Presumably it must be possible to buy a ticket for a train from that station?

Yes, she may want to get a train all the way rather than drive to Newark and therefore require a ticket from Lincoln, not Newark. But by that time I'm sure they'll have had a talking-to and will be doing their job properly anyway..

But for a day trip off peak, Lincoln-London is £58.90 (avoiding Retford) but is only £4.50 + £37.50 = £42.00 (Saving £16.90) by splitting at Newark. So even getting a direct train it would be better to buy a ticket from Newark (plus a Lincoln to Newark).

If Lincoln have been refusing to issue such combinations then I'd suggest all those affected issue an invoice to EMT, failure by EMT to pay and it could be taken to the small claims court.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Think we may share those 'thoughts' on the Stagecoach group.

Live in London and normally visit relatives in W Yorks using the East coast run. Lately used the cheaper Megabusplus deal changing at East Midlands Parkway (EMD) on the way from St Pancras to Bradford. Last trip back was hit and miss for passengers. Stagecoach do not hold EMT trains at EMD for late running inbound coaches. On arriving at EMD, I ran from the late running coach into EMD and *just* made the onwards train for St Pancras. As I took my seat on the train and started pulling out of East Midlands Parkway, I watched less fortunate passengers from the coach running down the footbridge in vein....

 

[bnsf734]

I was surprised by this, but she said she's been told - and there is a notice up saying they cannot (or will not, I'm not sure of the phrasing) sell tickets for other train companies.

I wonder how this "rule" applies to Hinckley and Narborough stations where EMT staff the stations, but Cross Country supplies the train service

Calv

 

[snowhill]

Hi Yorkie,

Many thanks for the Boundary Zone 6 tip. I'll be going down to Ashford again when the weather gets better and 50p is better in my pocket than theirs.

Cheers

Dave