By God - Those Class 331s Are Fast!

[dk1]

Temporary? Its been there for over a year!

We had a TSR on the up at Stowmarket that was in place for over 20 years.

 

[AM9]

It wasn't half as annoying as "bus stopping at next bus stop, please stand clear of doors", a message that is entirely satisfactorily put across by a simple "ding".

That reminds me of the Flanders & Swann song, 'Transport of Delight' with the link between verses: "hold very tight now - ding ding ...".
For those too young to know it, go here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=2ahUKEwjD6tbPyLHuAhWPTxUIHeWaA9IQ8DUwAnoECAQQAw&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

Hope that works, it's almost impossible to post links on a mobile.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clear OLE can provide a pretty significant advantage with the right rolling stock. I'm pretty sure even the 319's were faster than 150's despite only one out of the 4 carriages being powered? They were comparable at least.

They have a higher top speed (100mph vs 75mph) but 319s are the definition of sluggish.

Even ignoring that, the passenger experience was much nicer and refined.

Certainly.

 

[Railperf]

So apparently the 3-car trains do 1.3m/s electric, 0.7m/s diesel.

4-cars do 1.1m/s electric, 0.9m/s diesel.

So the 4-car trains are a bit more consistent, 3-car trains are faster under wires.

Clear OLE can provide a pretty significant advantage with the right rolling stock. I'm pretty sure even the 319's were faster than 150's despite only one out of the 4 carriages being powered? They were comparable at least.

Even ignoring that, the passenger experience was much nicer and refined.

I try not to use the m/s/s figures as the acceleration rate is not constant and does not give you a an idea of just how much faster the train might be compared to another.

If you want to understand how the m/s/s figure translates into real life performance - you can go to this thread - #96

 

[edwin_m]

But figure this - A full load of passengers on each car accordingly should offset (Including Standing) the acceleration vs weight surely? Capping the Acc would cause issues with timings etc?
Running with a few passengers during current situations - That I can understand though...

Given a 3 car train has a normal weight of ~125t and a capacity of 345 passengers (including standing), assuming an average weight of 75kg you'd increase weight by 25t (20%) with a fully laden train.

That's rather by the by though, as the train should have sensors that will tell it how heavy it is/how many people are on board (even sprinters have this IIRC) - it shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of the manufacturer to limit the power based on it's own self measured mass to achieve a consistent, comfortable, acceleration

So apparently the 3-car trains do 1.3m/s electric, 0.7m/s diesel.

4-cars do 1.1m/s electric, 0.9m/s diesel.

So the 4-car trains are a bit more consistent, 3-car trains are faster under wires.

Clear OLE can provide a pretty significant advantage with the right rolling stock. I'm pretty sure even the 319's were faster than 150's despite only one out of the 4 carriages being powered? They were comparable at least.

Even ignoring that, the passenger experience was much nicer and refined.

According to the laws of physics, the acceleration at low speeds depends only on the proportion of the weight that is on powered axles, and the achieved coefficient of friction between the wheel and the rail. The weight of the train and the passengers cancels out - it increases the mass to be accelerated but also increases the weight on the axles and therefore the tractive effort by the same ratio.

As the train accelerates the rate of acceleration is essentially constant (it reduces a little due to increasing rolling resistance) until a certain speed when the available power starts becoming a limitation. Electrics generally have much more installed power, and can often exceed their continuous power rating for short periods, so will have better performance at the top end of the speed range.

 

[Halish Railway]

They have a higher top speed (100mph vs 75mph) but 319s are the definition of sluggish.

I think Northern’s nowadays struggle to break 85mph. I think a Dusty Bin would be a better example of a Mk3 EMU being faster than their DMU counterparts.

 

[hexagon789]

The 755s achieve around 1.3.

Probably a version used abroad then that does 1.4 or so. Not that 1.3 is a slouch!

 

[Jamesrob637]

This one was timed 42 minutes Salford to Bolton. I could have walked nearly as quick!

Realtime Trains - 1N62 1646 Manchester Airport to Bolton

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[py_megapixel]

This one was timed 42 minutes Salford to Bolton. I could have walked nearly as quick!

Realtime Trains - 1N62 1646 Manchester Airport to Bolton

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

To be fair, that one was late...

 

[stottyuk]

No, it was timed 42 minutes but did it in 8 minutes hence why it arrived 34 minutes early into Bolton

 

[Railperf]

We had a TSR on the up at Stowmarket that was in place for over 20 years.

I wonder if that is a record for a TSR?. Mind you, Gypsy Lane TSR is getting on a bit with no resolution in sight

 

[dk1]

I wonder if that is a record for a TSR?. Mind you, Gypsy Lane TSR is getting on a bit with no resolution in sight

Gypsy Lane was around 2011 but is trounced by Croxton near Thetford. That went on shortly after the derailment caused by the level crossing surface in, I think, 2005!!

 

[supervc-10]

That reminds me of the Flanders & Swann song, 'Transport of Delight' with the link between verses: "hold very tight now - ding ding ...".
For those too young to know it, go here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=2ahUKEwjD6tbPyLHuAhWPTxUIHeWaA9IQ8DUwAnoECAQQAw&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

Hope that works, it's almost impossible to post links on a mobile.

Hey, I'm only 29 and I love Flanders and Swann! They were my grandmother's favourite
The Reluctant Cannibal is a particular favourite. And of course, The Slow Train. Which is kind of apt for a thread about speedy new 331s!

Now to head off down a rabbit hole of Flanders and Swann on YouTube!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's slightly heartwarming is seeing places on a video like that that have reopened. "Wilbraham Road" is the present Chorlton Metrolink, for instance.

 

[Nymanic]

What's slightly heartwarming is seeing places on a video like that that have reopened. "Wilbraham Road" is the present Chorlton Metrolink, for instance.

Not quite - the present Chorlton stop was simply "Chorlton-Cum-Hardy" (as mentioned in the song!)

Wilbraham Road was slightly further east, on the Fallowfield Loop... and not situated on its namesake road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not quite - the present Chorlton stop was simply "Chorlton-Cum-Hardy" (as mentioned in the song!)

Wilbraham Road was slightly further east, on the Fallowfield Loop... and not situated on its namesake road.

I stand corrected, thanks!

 

[superkev]

This months Rail Express magazine has it frequent 0 to 60 time list.
Fastest emu was a 3 car 331 at 35 sec. Fastest diesel mechanical was 2 car 195 at 90sec
Fastes demu was a 220 at 53sec.
Others of interest class 345 36sec, 185 68sec, 745.1 41sec.n
755 bi mode demu not done yet.
Good feature worth purchasing.
K

 

[Halish Railway]

This months Rail Express magazine has it frequent 0 to 60 time list.
Fastest emu was a 3 car 331 at 35 sec. Fastest diesel mechanical was 2 car 195 at 90sec
Fastes demu was a 220 at 53sec.
Others of interest class 345 36sec, 185 68sec, 745.1 41sec.n
755 bi mode demu not done yet.
Good feature worth purchasing.
K

On the Fastest accelerating Multiple unit thread there’s a report of a 3 car 331 doing 0-60 in around 27 seconds when full power was whacked on.

 

[fkofilee]

On the Fastest accelerating Multiple unit thread there’s a report of a 3 car 331 doing 0-60 in around 27 seconds when full power was whacked on.

Considering the 6 car I was on when I was up in Manx earlier this week - That doesnt surprise me...
I still stand by what I think - They are one of the fastest if not the fastest EMU in the UK currently. And the Class 395 used to amaze me... ¬_¬

 

[Halish Railway]

Considering the 6 car I was on when I was up in Manx earlier this week - That doesnt surprise me...
I still stand by what I think - They are one of the fastest if not the fastest EMU in the UK currently. And the Class 395 used to amaze me... ¬_¬

A 755/3 on electric might just outrun it.

 

[Railperf]

This months Rail Express magazine has it frequent 0 to 60 time list.
Fastest emu was a 3 car 331 at 35 sec. Fastest diesel mechanical was 2 car 195 at 90sec
Fastes demu was a 220 at 53sec.
Others of interest class 345 36sec, 185 68sec, 745.1 41sec.n
755 bi mode demu not done yet.
Good feature worth purchasing.
K

Quite a few Railway Performance Society members contribute the figures to this articles - so i'm up to speed with the figures - and contribute to them too.
Recording a fast 0-60mph time is dependent on a lot of conditions and of course the mechanical state of the unit and driver style.
It is not uncommon to experience faster 0 to 60mph times than the list in Rail Express

Faster Class 195 runs faster than 0-60mph than 90 seconds, exist, - so the article will need updating in future. The 331's are tricky because there are very few 'level' or close to level sections of track in which to record these. And due to the 'brutal' starting acceleration - many drivers hold back from giving them the full beans. I don't live in the North west - so opportunities for me to record them are limited. But 35 secs was a good fast time and better than i managed to record on a brief visit. Needless to say, if any 331 driver wants to offer some full power starts - I'll be up to record them as soon as lockdown is over and travel is permitted.

I have reliable figures for the 755 bi-modes as posted on the fastest EMU/DMU thread. So far the 755/3 in electric is fastest at 0-60mph in 27 seconds - 0-100mph in 69 seconds.
The 755/4 diesel is fastest DMU/ bimode running on diesel.

The Class 220 figure is unusual is interesting because 53 seconds was recorded on track with a greater than ideal downhill gradient than would usually be used - a driver keen to give full power - and when the 220's were running at 750bhp - per engine before the downrating to 700bhp per engine. So you wont experience that sort of acceleration nowadays on even track.

 

[js1000]

When you've been used to 319s south of Manchester for 5 years, the 331s are a revelation.

Some of the hate the 195/331s get on here when you consider what junk Northern have had to manage with for too many years makes me laugh. The dilapidated state of their stock has infringed on every aspect of their business over the years. Increased maintenance costs from an eclectic fleet, drivers wanting to move to other franchises to drive more modern trains (+cost of training new drivers), passengers avoiding Northern trains altogether due to the Pacers (I know people who do/did)

 

[Jozhua]

They have a higher top speed (100mph vs 75mph) but 319s are the definition of sluggish.



Certainly.

Yeah, I mean they ain't too fast, but the fact they are in the same ballpark with one out of four coaches powered shows the benefits of electric!

When you've been used to 319s south of Manchester for 5 years, the 331s are a revelation.

Some of the hate the 195/331s get on here when you consider what junk Northern have had to manage with for too many years makes me laugh. The dilapidated state of their stock has infringed on every aspect of their business over the years. Increased maintenance costs from an eclectic fleet, drivers wanting to move to other franchises to drive more modern trains (+cost of training new drivers), passengers avoiding Northern trains altogether due to the Pacers (I know people who do/did)

Oh absolutely.

The 319's aren't great, but were still an improvement on what came before on the Bolton Corridor. 150's, 153's, Pacers, 156's and 158's if you were lucky (except those would almost always be short formed.)

Now the 331's run in consistent 6-car formations (compare this to frequent 2-car short forms on peak Castlefield runs before), have A/C, Charging Ports, Big Doors, Bright Interiors and better seats.

195's ain't half bad. Kinda sounds like a bus, but is quick and comfy. Very comparable to rolling stock I've experienced internationally.

 

[chiltern trev]

It isn't unheard of for manufacturers to tune the traction software to feed the power in more gently. Even if the driver slams the controller into full power, the traction software should feed the power in cleanly enough to prevent people falling over. Tube trains have very fast acceleration 0-10 and 20mph but people don't complain of falling over.
There should be an announcement advising people to hold on to something as the train starts anyway.

Re the tube trains - I seem to remember one batch of tube trains (Central line?) when new were capable of people falling over, and it did happen, but then the control equipment was adjusted/programmed so the rate of change of acceleration did not cause people to fall over - and this feature then became a standard.

 

[Neptune]

, drivers wanting to move to other franchises to drive more modern trains

I think you’ll find they generally leave for more money. In my 20+ years at Northern and predecessors I’ve never heard of a driver moving to another TOC to drive ‘more modern trains’.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Maybe they should have their maximum acceleration rate capped in the traction control software, they are there for transporting passengers rather than as a sports activity for drivers and enthusiasts.
..

Right there
The DB trains drivers to use less energy, ICEs coast for long distances if they are up to time

 

[AM9]

Right there
The DB trains drivers to use less energy, ICEs coast for long distances if they are up to time

It's inevitable that some members of Rail Performance and their followers will see new trains as just another 'top trumps' metric, forgetting that they are primarily passenger carrying vehicles and much trumpeted for their potential for greener transport. Most drivers fortunately recognise the true purpose of their work vehicles and treat their passengers with care.

 

[D365]

Right there
The DB trains drivers to use less energy, ICEs coast for long distances if they are up to time

That’s something that will become more commonplace especially when ETCS is rolled out.

 

[AM9]

That’s something that will become more commonplace especially when ETCS is rolled out.

Isn't that the case of the class 700s running on ATO through the core when their speeds are controlled to keep within their path in the working timetable rather than racing ahead (just because they have the acceleration performance) and then stopping when they catch up with the train in front? What matters to passengers is that they keep to the timetable rather than arrive early which is rarely long enough to do anything useful in!

 

[Railperf]

It's inevitable that some members of Rail Performance and their followers will see new trains as just another 'top trumps' metric, forgetting that they are primarily passenger carrying vehicles and much trumpeted for their potential for greener transport. Most drivers fortunately recognise the true purpose of their work vehicles and treat their passengers with care.

Are you suggesting that a driver using the full acceleration of the train does not care for the passengers?