CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Philip]

You aren't comparing like with like though.

The Class 185 had extensive testing at Wildenwrath though before all that from mid-2005. These units have not had that yet - that's going to happen on the North Wales coast. They are starting from scratch now. So you still looking at 9-10 months before they are likely to enter service.

The Class 175 had seven months between starting testing and entering service.

The point is that TfW have not accepted the units yet. They're the property of CAF until the actual mainline testing is completed. They are not "delivered" as such at this time.

I really do think that it would be more appropriate to compare the Class 195 and Class 197 in terms of rollout than trains from 20 years ago.

Fair enough. It looks like the 31st May date next year for TfW having to hand back the 175s is looking a bit tight with this in mind.

 

[berneyarms]

Fair enough. It looks like the 31st May date next year for TfW having to hand back the 175s is looking a bit tight with this in mind.

Everything is behind schedule at the moment, due to Covid and the issues with the Class 230 and Class 769.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair enough. It looks like the 31st May date next year for TfW having to hand back the 175s is looking a bit tight with this in mind.

As they have no planned home that is probably no great issue.

 

[Eccles1983]

ROG are used a lot for this sort of job, but are completely unsuitable for it.

The "fault free" milage is completely false when rog do it as they do not test it in comparable conditions. So when the toc gets hold of the trains they fall apart under stopping services.

It must be a cost thing, as it offers no other worthwhile purpose.

 

[wobman]

All correct. Fault free running I'd contracted by CAF rather than TfW, hence using ROG drivers.

I'd be amazed if it's not 2022 at the earliest for an entry into service. In any case, it gives time for all the other training that needs to take place right now (MKIV, 230, 769 and a massive backlog of route learning) on top of the regular day to day things.

The most optimistic plan is December for 197's on the Liverpool route initially, but that's quite optimistic.
There's lots of logistical problems to resolve once the units are accepted, such as getting DI's trained up & storing the units once more get delivered.

They want the 197's stored at Ludo jn once the sidings are cleared, as they will be tested Crewe to Stafford then the N Wales coast.

 

[Jez]

There are two delivered to Crewe.
They have yet to actually start testing on the mainline yet. First of all the maintenance team need to be trained up on them.

The trains need to achieve fault-free testing over a certain distance as it is a brand new type of unit, that alone will take several months. That will be done using drivers from Rail Operations Group apparently (source is current edition of North Wales Coast Railway News - http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm). The first units always have a longer testing requirement to attain clearance.

Then TfW drivers and guards will need to be trained up as well on them. That's going to take months too.

Take the Class 195 testing process as an example:
First unit delivered to Northern in June 2018; Started mainline testing in September 2018; Entered service in July 2019.

It is going to take time. Maybe not quite as long - but I would think it will be next year (Spring).

I could see some being introduced to service with the May 2022 timetable change? Possibly North Wales to Manchester first. It could be December 2022 before they are used on the Marches and Cambrian. I assume the 175s will need to be extended? Arent they supposed to be going in a years time?

 

[craigybagel]

I could see some being introduced to service with the May 2022 timetable change? Possibly North Wales to Manchester first. It could be December 2022 before they are used on the Marches and Cambrian. I assume the 175s will need to be extended? Arent they supposed to be going in a years time?

North Wales is a likely first route but we'll know more about that when training starts (which isn't likely to be for a while) and we see which depots are trained first. It's a lot easier to have self contained diagrams in North Wales then on the other services planned for 197s, and it keeps them close to home in Chester. It won't be the Cambrian as the ERTMS 197s are meant to be coming later on.

The 175s were indeed due to leave next year but as Bletchleyite correctly pointed out that don't have a home lined up yet (at least not publicly) so there shouldn't be too much issues in holding on to them a bit longer.

The most optimistic plan is December for 197's on the Liverpool route initially, but that's quite optimistic.
There's lots of logistical problems to resolve once the units are accepted, such as getting DI's trained up & storing the units once more get delivered.

They want the 197's stored at Ludo jn once the sidings are cleared, as they will be tested Crewe to Stafford then the N Wales coast.

Very optimistic! Liverpool is definitely the most sensible route for them to appear on first though.

 

[Jez]

North Wales is a likely first route but we'll know more about that when training starts (which isn't likely to be for a while) and we see which depots are trained first. It's a lot easier to have self contained diagrams in North Wales then on the other services planned for 197s, and it keeps them close to home in Chester. It won't be the Cambrian as the ERTMS 197s are meant to be coming later on.

The 175s were indeed due to leave next year but as Bletchleyite correctly pointed out that don't have a home lined up yet (at least not publicly) so there shouldn't be too much issues in holding on to them a bit longer.

That makes sense as the 158s will be with TFW for longer. I expect the Cambrian to be the last route to get them.

It would make sense for Chester to be the first depot trained on the 197s as they will be based there. I guess apart from Cardiff Valleys every depot will have involvement with the 197s eventually given they will be used on all the long distance routes. Manchester-Milford would require Crewe, Cardiff and Carmarthen depots trained, although im not sure if Cardiff sign as far as Milford (I know they do to Carmarthen) so its possible Crewe and Cardiff would initially be trained for them to be used on the Manchester-Milfords. Im surprised they arent having some 197s home depot in Cardiff as well as Chester and Machynlleth given so many diagrams will pass through and start/end in Cardiff. Milford/Carmarthen and even Cardiff is some distance from Chester. I always thought that with the 175s too but understand they weren't planned for South Wales initially and we to be used in North Wales/North West so Chester as an base made sense but with the CAF units its planned that they will run in South and West Wales as well as Mid/North Wales.

Despite the negativity around them replacing the 175s i'm looking forward to seeing them. I hope somehow at least some of the 175s get to stay also.

 

[gka472l]

001 and 002. They are the only ones that have made their way to Crewe so far.

Not sure if it's been reported (44 pages is a bit much to check through....) but spotted 001 today from the Crewe to Kidsgrove line, and noted the individual car numbers are 131001/133001......

HTH

 

[PHILIPE]

Not sure if it's been reported (44 pages is a bit much to check through....) but spotted 001 today from the Crewe to Kidsgrove line, and noted the individual car numbers are 131001/133001......

HTH

Forgiven but agree it is a long thread and has been reported. 002 is there as well.

 

[craigybagel]

Forgiven but agree it is a long thread and has been reported. 002 is there as well.

Though you won't be able to see 002, it's tucked up inside one of the sheds. 001 is in the sidings next to the Potts line though so easy to see (if you're on a train at least!).

 

[The_Train]

ROG are used a lot for this sort of job, but are completely unsuitable for it.

The "fault free" milage is completely false when rog do it as they do not test it in comparable conditions. So when the toc gets hold of the trains they fall apart under stopping services.

It must be a cost thing, as it offers no other worthwhile purpose.

Surely there are general stipulations, guidance and rules for fault free testing, irrelevant of which operator is at the helm and which all operators have to follow?

 

[Eccles1983]

Surely there are general stipulations, guidance and rules for fault free testing, irrelevant of which operator is at the helm and which all operators have to follow?

Nope.

They get certificated as xxxx fault free miles.

Dependant on the contract the next move is to the toc, where they actually do some worthwhile testing in realistic conditions and they usually fall to bits.

See most of the new trains on the network for an example.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Photos of 197001 at Crewe on a test run:

https://twitter.com/lsodp/status/1395150172913651715?s=21

 

[craigybagel]

Surprised there hasn't been much talk about this - apparently it's less important than seats and toilets - but it's out right now spending the night shuttling between Crewe and Stafford. I know it's made it into the station a few times already but I'm not sure if this is the first day of it traveling beyond Crewe or not.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Photos of 197001 at Crewe on a test run:

https://twitter.com/lsodp/status/1395150172913651715?s=21

I notice that CAF have gone for the ultra bright lights which are so relaxing on the 800s at night

 

[Cardiff123]

I notice that CAF have gone for the ultra bright lights which are so relaxing on the 800s at night

I'm pretty sure that's what they must have now that there are no yellow ends.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm pretty sure that's what they must have now that there are no yellow ends.

I think the OP was referring to the interior lights. I assume they'll be the same ones as the 195 etc.

 

[Bob Price]

TfW have posted a blog showing the 197's with images video and a story here. "Brand new trains off the production line"

Brand new trains off the production line in Newport

The transformation of the Wales and Borders network has moved another step closer with the first of the brand-new Class 197 trains coming off the production line.

news.tfw.wales

 

[anthony263]

Talk thays been posted one had suggested the class 170s with tfw could be on their way to emr which if true makes me wonder if the class197s could be used in.their place on the heart of wales line etc

 

[PHILIPE]

Talk thays been posted one had suggested the class 170s with tfw could be on their way to emr which if true makes me wonder if the class197s could be used in.their place on the heart of wales line etc

Understand from FB (not definite source of confirmation) that there is only one going on a lease.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All correct. Fault free running I'd contracted by CAF rather than TfW, hence using ROG drivers.
I'd be amazed if it's not 2022 at the earliest for an entry into service. In any case, it gives time for all the other training that needs to take place right now (MKIV, 230, 769 and a massive backlog of route learning) on top of the regular day to day things.

You'd think our Great British Railway had never seen CAF DMUs before, and almost identical ones to Northern's at that.
Why should it take months and months to prove they can actually turn a wheel in "Welsh" (and West Midlands) conditions?
Is there a simulator as there was for 175s?
I think it's now 2 years that CAF 195s have been working in/out of Chester on Leeds services.

 

[craigybagel]

You'd think our Great British Railway had never seen CAF DMUs before, and almost identical ones to Northern's at that.
Why should it take months and months to prove they can actually turn a wheel in "Welsh" (and West Midlands) conditions?

Given the size of the investment here can you blame TfW/WMR for wanting to make sure things work?

In any case I'm not aware of any fleet being introduced in recent times without a large degree of testing first because if you squint a bit they look similar to another fleet in service somewhere else.

Is there a simulator as there was for 175s?

There are indeed several 197 simulators on order, which should be a big improvement on the now rather dated Sprinter and 175 simulators.

 

[Energy]

Given the size of the investment here can you blame TfW/WMR for wanting to make sure things work?

In any case I'm not aware of any fleet being introduced in recent times without a large degree of testing first because if you squint a bit they look similar to another fleet in service somewhere else.

It would make sense for TfW and WMR to combine some of the testing given that the units are identical (well CAF are in charge of testing until unit handover). They would much rather have problems during testing than during service, especially given the lower demand right now.

 

[amwells]

Just passed Crewe on the WCML and saw one of these units very clearly but not the number - does anyone know which one it might have been? Many thanks

 

[py_megapixel]

Just passed Crewe on the WCML and saw one of these units very clearly but not the number - does anyone know which one it might have been? Many thanks

Can't help with the unit number, sorry, but were you able to see the whole thing? I was leaving Crewe towards Stafford about this time last week and there was one present but I could only see one of the carriages, the rest being hidden behind a shed.

 

[amwells]

Can't help with the unit number, sorry, but were you able to see the whole thing? I was leaving Crewe towards Stafford about this time last week and there was one present but I could only see one of the carriages, the rest being hidden behind a shed.

Yes definitely able to see both carriages, south of the LNWR shed

 

[Doveymain158]

Yes definitely able to see both carriages, south of the LNWR shed

It could be either 197001 or 197002.

 

[wobman]

Yes both 197001 & 197002 are at Crewe LNWR for testing, the testing is initially completed by ROG drivers Crewe to Stafford for mileage accumulation. Then phase 2 will be Chester to Llandudno junction for testing.

 

[sd0733]

The one easily visible as you head south towards Stafford is 197002.