CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

krus_aragon

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The 197s are completely different to couple than the 195s, there's a cab wall panel with cab equipment to unlock move then lock into position.
Then unlock the first inner door move then lock into position, next step is to unlock and lock the floor leveling plate, finally unlock the concatener doors then move and relock safely.
Then you start the coupling procedures draw 6ft then 2ft, check couple alignment and press coupling speed control to power onto unit and then the unit runs coupling and test procedures.... then the driver ensures brake release try doing that in 3mins.......

Also the 197s electrical boxes are located in a different configuration than the 195s.
I was thinking from the 19x's point of view in a mechanical sense (where the couplers, electronics, and pull-away tests are based on the same hardware), and maybe not enough about how the driver's procedure is different. Regardless, thank you for the reminder about the operation as a whole.

--

Early in the TfW franchise I had a layman's go at drawing up an indicative timetable for the North Wales Coast based on the announced services. I remember that routeing the services to/from Liverpool was the most challenging: they needed to pass each other at Chester while coupling/uncoupling there (occupying two through platforms in the process), and being constrained by the single track portions to Wrexham and short turnaround times for the Shrewsbury terminators.

From memory I had the two separate units arriving into Chester seven and five minutes before departure for Liverpool (and vice versa in the other direction). That might be practical with a 3-minute coupling on a 158, but a 9-minute coupling would clearly blow that out of the water. It'd mean through passengers might be timetabled to sit at Chester for 12-15 minutes: in that sort of scenario you might as well ditch the coupling and ask one set of passengers to change train!
 
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wobman

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I wholly agree, but I’m hopeful that the 197s won’t take any longer than current stock once the process is formalised (and assuming that any ERTMS equipment on board is quicker to boot up). If it really takes 9 minutes once in service then that will be yet another stick to beat the 197s with!
Unfortunately the coupling process will always take longer for a 197 over a sprinter type unit, the 4 physical items to move versus just the gangway door and its screen that need moving on a sprinter.
The software can be speeded up after some work, but I can't ever see a 197 doing it in 3mins, the time for coupling 158s has never been enough as it is. Just look at the delays caused at Shrewsbury if the units arrive on time and not early.
 

wobman

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I was thinking from the 19x's point of view in a mechanical sense (where the couplers, electronics, and pull-away tests are based on the same hardware), and maybe not enough about how the driver's procedure is different. Regardless, thank you for the reminder about the operation as a whole.

--

Early in the TfW franchise I had a layman's go at drawing up an indicative timetable for the North Wales Coast based on the announced services. I remember that routeing the services to/from Liverpool was the most challenging: they needed to pass each other at Chester while coupling/uncoupling there (occupying two through platforms in the process), and being constrained by the single track portions to Wrexham and short turnaround times for the Shrewsbury terminators.

From memory I had the two separate units arriving into Chester seven and five minutes before departure for Liverpool (and vice versa in the other direction). That might be practical with a 3-minute coupling on a 158, but a 9-minute coupling would clearly blow that out of the water. It'd mean through passengers might be timetabled to sit at Chester for 12-15 minutes: in that sort of scenario you might as well ditch the coupling and ask one set of passengers to change train!
Once the covid timetable ceases and normality returns, then eventually Chester station gets back to being very busy. all of this extra coupling and uncoupling processes will be a logistical nightmare. Moving a unit from the sidings to a platform can take over 20mins in-between services running in and out of platforms.
Then there's occupying busy through platforms which are needed for through services, as p7 is so busy it's no longer used as a through platform so all Chester has is p3 and 4 for the portion working to/ from Liverpool.
Moving trains on a screen is far easier than the reality, the train planning departments need to get out of there offices and see the reality of how the railways run.

If they spend a day at a busy interchange through station and see how many people don't listen to the announcements about train attaching or detaching portions it wastes valuable time, then there's the passengers already on the platform getting on the wrong portions.
When it's a commuter train they know the routine and are quite quick but when it's on non commuter services it all gets very chaotic I find.

Hopefully the 197s side panel destination screens will help but the overeliance on this method of working will cause delays on a daily basis.
 

berneyarms

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Once the covid timetable ceases and normality returns, then eventually Chester station gets back to being very busy. all of this extra coupling and uncoupling processes will be a logistical nightmare. Moving a unit from the sidings to a platform can take over 20mins in-between services running in and out of platforms.
Then there's occupying busy through platforms which are needed for through services, as p7 is so busy it's no longer used as a through platform so all Chester has is p3 and 4 for the portion working to/ from Liverpool.
Moving trains on a screen is far easier than the reality, the train planning departments need to get out of there offices and see the reality of how the railways run.

If they spend a day at a busy interchange through station and see how many people don't listen to the announcements about train attaching or detaching portions it wastes valuable time, then there's the passengers already on the platform getting on the wrong portions.
When it's a commuter train they know the routine and are quite quick but when it's on non commuter services it all gets very chaotic I find.

Hopefully the 197s side panel destination screens will help but the overeliance on this method of working will cause delays on a daily basis.
There is only so much you can do though.

People do need to take some personal responsibility for themselves.
 

Bob Price

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Finding it interesting that milage accumulation only seems to be taking place on 001. It's just headed out for its daily run. Even with the software issues I am surprised they are coupling three together to get as many ready as possible.
 

wobman

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Finding it interesting that milage accumulation only seems to be taking place on 001. It's just headed out for its daily run. Even with the software issues I am surprised they are coupling three together to get as many ready as possible.
Once the mileage accumulation is completed by the ROG drivers they pass the problems on to TFW. they need a few units for the DI training starting later this month.

I think tfw only have the 1 unit passed onto them so far, the tfw integration team are trying hard to get the training ready but the caf units are struggling with minor software glitches.
 

anthony263

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Once the mileage accumulation is completed by the ROG drivers they pass the problems on to TFW. they need a few units for the DI training starting later this month.

I think tfw only have the 1 unit passed onto them so far, the tfw integration team are trying hard to get the training ready but the caf units are struggling with minor software glitches.
197002 is the only unit in tfws hands so far
 

irish_rail

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Once the covid timetable ceases and normality returns, then eventually Chester station gets back to being very busy. all of this extra coupling and uncoupling processes will be a logistical nightmare. Moving a unit from the sidings to a platform can take over 20mins in-between services running in and out of platforms.
Then there's occupying busy through platforms which are needed for through services, as p7 is so busy it's no longer used as a through platform so all Chester has is p3 and 4 for the portion working to/ from Liverpool.
Moving trains on a screen is far easier than the reality, the train planning departments need to get out of there offices and see the reality of how the railways run.

If they spend a day at a busy interchange through station and see how many people don't listen to the announcements about train attaching or detaching portions it wastes valuable time, then there's the passengers already on the platform getting on the wrong portions.
When it's a commuter train they know the routine and are quite quick but when it's on non commuter services it all gets very chaotic I find.

Hopefully the 197s side panel destination screens will help but the overeliance on this method of working will cause delays on a daily basis.
This has been seen and continues to be seen at Plymouth with 10 car iets , passengers still consistently sit in the wrong portion as they are occasional travellers. Splitting and joining as you say works well on well oiled commuter trains , less so on leisure services.
 

Rhydgaled

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This has been seen and continues to be seen at Plymouth with 10 car iets , passengers still consistently sit in the wrong portion as they are occasional travellers. Splitting and joining as you say works well on well oiled commuter trains , less so on leisure services.
But with guards and unit-end gangways, a ticket check can see that passengers are directed to move to the correct portion, without the risk of missing the train if they have to alight to do so. Hence unit-end gangways is one of the few things KeolisAmey got right when specifying the class 197s.
 

wobman

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But with guards and unit-end gangways, a ticket check can see that passengers are directed to move to the correct portion, without the risk of missing the train if they have to alight to do so. Hence unit-end gangways is one of the few things KeolisAmey got right when specifying the class 197s.
Most of the present tfw portion working is using sprinters with gangway doors as it is, like others have said it works well with commuters but not with every other type of passenger.
I see it on a daily basis and unless the train is quiet there is always chaos after a detachment of units, most won't walk through as they have luggage or kids or mobility issues.
Lots of passengers just don't understand what's going on or just ignore or don't hear the announcements usually.

Just sit on the platform at for example at Shrewsbury on a daily to see the chaos.....
 

Bletchleyite

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Most of the present tfw portion working is using sprinters with gangway doors as it is, like others have said it works well with commuters but not with every other type of passenger.
I see it on a daily basis and unless the train is quiet there is always chaos after a detachment of units, most won't walk through as they have luggage or kids or mobility issues.
Lots of passengers just don't understand what's going on or just ignore or don't hear the announcements usually.

Just sit on the platform at for example at Shrewsbury on a daily to see the chaos.....

Part of the reason for this is that TfW have long been unwilling/unable to have and correctly use a PIS (on board and on stations, or if those really can't be made to do it by using poster stands and window stickers) that shows splitting and joining clearly and correctly. Half the time they can't even be bothered correctly representing in the timetable what goes on on the ground, e.g. at Machynlleth. It really is dire, but is exactly what I would expect from the lackadaisical, can't be bothered, bare minimum Arriva management culture which has clearly not gone away under TfW.

Both GTR and WMT have extensive portion working (some Southern services even used to be 3 portions!) and manage to inform people correctly, as a result of which there is far less confusion.
 

craigybagel

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Part of the reason for this is that TfW have long been unwilling/unable to have and correctly use a PIS (on board and on stations, or if those really can't be made to do it by using poster stands and window stickers) that shows splitting and joining clearly and correctly. Half the time they can't even be bothered correctly representing in the timetable what goes on on the ground, e.g. at Machynlleth. It really is dire, but is exactly what I would expect from the lackadaisical, can't be bothered, bare minimum Arriva management culture which has clearly not gone away under TfW.

Both GTR and WMT have extensive portion working (some Southern services even used to be 3 portions!) and manage to inform people correctly, as a result of which there is far less confusion.
GTR and WMT units came with proper built in PIS systems from day one. TfW are stuck with an aftermarket system (Train FX) and you only have to search through these forums to see how well they've worked at every TOC who's been stuck with them.

The guards are doing their best, as do the station staff at Shrewsbury and Machy where most of these issues come up - but there's only so much they can do, and they're up against the twin terrors of awful equipment and a well meaning public who occasionally make odd decisions.

I've dealt with many different TOCs across my Railway career, and passengers ending up in the wrong place are hardly unique to TfW.
 

Bletchleyite

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GTR and WMT units came with proper built in PIS systems from day one. TfW are stuck with an aftermarket system (Train FX) and you only have to search through these forums to see how well they've worked at every TOC who's been stuck with them.

TrainFX is certainly junk, but as EMT did to indicate coach letters and whether the set was going to Notts or Norwich on the Liverpool-Norwich 158s there is no reason they could not retrofit some sort of relatively cheap, simple manual system for indicating where each coach is going - and it doesn't need to be as wasteful as printing and binning paper labels, it could be reusable plastic signs in slots in the windows as European railways used to use*. Crikey, a bit of A4 written in biro blue-tacked in the window would be better than nothing.

* Example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/139996750@N06/50061629321/

No, they're not perfect. Yes, people would occasionally nick them. But they would make a difference and be cheap and quick to provide.

I've dealt with many different TOCs across my Railway career, and passengers ending up in the wrong place are hardly unique to TfW.

Indeed, but with TfW the information is totally lacking. Traincrew can't do much about that, but TfW management could, and quickly too.

Going back towards the original topic, does the Class 197 on board PIS (which appears not to be TrainFX) deal with splitting and joining properly? I've not been on a 195-operated service that portion worked so I don't know about those.
 
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animationmilo

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How many sets of 197s is there now
is it

2 Car Sets
197001
197002
197003
197004

3 Car Sets
197101
197102
197103
 

6Gtraincrew

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How many sets of 197s is there now
is it

2 Car Sets
197001
197002
197003
197004

3 Car Sets
197101
197102
197103
I'm pretty sure 103 hasn't been delivered yet, but the others you mentioned are definitely correct. So just the six units as far as I know.
 

Doveymain158

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I'm pretty sure 103 hasn't been delivered yet, but the others you mentioned are definitely correct. So just the six units as far as I know.
Im pretty sure i have read it correctly on wnxx a 3-car and a 2-car 197 have been delivered to Donnington recently
 

berneyarms

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Delivered to Crewe are:

2 Car Sets
197001
197002
197003
197004

3 Car Sets
197101
197102


At Donnington are:

2 Car Sets
197006
197007
197008
197010

Plus 1 Unidentified 197/0

3 Car Set:
197103
 

Bob Price

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101 is out to play today, just gone past Crewe on its way to Chester. It's usually 001 that has been used.
 

craigybagel

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Should see some more of them out every day soon - the first training course was due to start today.
 

sd0733

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By next week there’s should also be training diagrams on Crewe to Shrewsbury as well as North Wales coast, there are meant to be 4 units out each day once that starts fully.
 

wobman

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By next week there’s should also be training diagrams on Crewe to Shrewsbury as well as North Wales coast, there are meant to be 4 units out each day once that starts fully.
Let's wait and see, as the last I heard tfw have only had 1 x 197 handed over to them from caf. The remainder are still with caf and rog drivers on test and mileage accumulation runs.
 

craigybagel

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Strictly speaking it's Driver Instructor training I believe, ready for them to then go and train everyone else up. Presumably Conductor Instructors too, though I'm not sure what stage they're at.
 

sd0733

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Strictly speaking it's Driver Instructor training I believe, ready for them to then go and train everyone else up. Presumably Conductor Instructors too, though I'm not sure what stage they're at.
Yes, the CIs are down for the training runs too.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Do we have a date yet when we expect IOC? We know that they aim to achieve FOC in 2023 but other than originally last year nothing has been given for IOC.

For those unaware of definitely non railway vernacular, Initial Operational Capability (in this case limited service) and Full Operating Capability (enough in service to meet the timetable completely)
 

krus_aragon

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The ORR have accepted the 20 X 2 car and 12 X 3 car units into service.
The approval document (here) lists 30 two-car and 12 three-car units. The annex describes them as two-car non-ETCS units 197001,002,004-021,042-051 and three-car non-first class 197101-112.

197003 (omitted from the approval) was previously said to be an ERTMS/ETCS unit for testing purposes. I presume that the range 022-040 is earmarked for Cambrian ETCS units?

Interesting tidbits:
Maximum speed is 160kph/100mph, or 105kph/65mph is suspension is deflated.
Operation in service permitted as three coupled sets up to 9 vehicles, or 4 sets up to 12 vehicles in ECS/rescue scenarios.
 

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