CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

Except it wasn’t working. Overcrowding was common, demand was stifled, the trains were probably expensive to operate all whilst providing an inadequate quality of service.


I feel like you’re missing the point slightly. Yes, the current Valley passengers don’t want shiny new trains every 5 minutes, but of course they’re not too bothered, they’re already using the service. Modal share is quite low, however, and the WG has (not incorrectly) concluded that shiny new trains every 5 minutes are wanted by people who aren’t using the railway at present.

Obviously, there is a lot of criticism to be made regarding the execution of this grand plan. But you (not directed at anyone in particular) are deluding yourself if you think things were fine before and shouldn’t have been meddled with. The 197s have certainly had a bumpy introduction, but the end result should be vastly better than ATW.

Finally, someone gets it.
Your last sentence in particular is the whole point of all the disruption. Arriva operated a no-growth franchise and as passenger numbers grew over their franchise period, nothing improved and the service became inadequate. With a lack of steady investment to improve, to catch up was always going to be disruptive.
Once it’s all done and dusted I genuinely do feel that TFW really could be offering some of the best rail services in the country.

 

[Caaardiff]

Except it wasn’t working. Overcrowding was common, demand was stifled, the trains were probably expensive to operate all whilst providing an inadequate quality of service.


I feel like you’re missing the point slightly. Yes, the current Valley passengers don’t want shiny new trains every 5 minutes, but of course they’re not too bothered, they’re already using the service. Modal share is quite low, however, and the WG has (not incorrectly) concluded that shiny new trains every 5 minutes are wanted by people who aren’t using the railway at present.

Obviously, there is a lot of criticism to be made regarding the execution of this grand plan. But you (not directed at anyone in particular) are deluding yourself if you think things were fine before and shouldn’t have been meddled with. The 197s have certainly had a bumpy introduction, but the end result should be vastly better than ATW.

In longer terms plans, yes, the Valleys and many other areas across Wales deserve frequency increases.
In the short term every effort should have been many with a simpler, easy to introduce, consistent and reliable timetable.

Arriva we're far from perfect but they had the card they were dealt by the franchise. But for all their faults at least Arriva had more consistency in the timetable they were running.

To go from barely any growth, and don't forget arriva did put things in that they weren't obliged to, to an overpromise and huge fleet replacement, infrastructure upgrades and various other projects all in one go was ludicrous. As a result many routes have suffered, as has performance. The Valleys lines have seen services reduced in order to cover stock shortages elsewhere. The Treherbert line works has probably saved TFW a few units as well as stopping newport-ebbw vale to some extent.

Finally, someone gets it.
Your last sentence in particular is the whole point of all the disruption. Arriva operated a no-growth franchise and as passenger numbers grew over their franchise period, nothing improved and the service became inadequate. With a lack of steady investment to improve, to catch up was always going to be disruptive.
Once it’s all done and dusted I genuinely do feel that TFW really could be offering some of the best rail services in the country.

Agreed but someone, somewhere promised extra frequencies, new routes and capacity boosts all while bringing in a new fleet that was replacing an old fleet and completely missed the complications that were inevitable with that task. As well as buying a bunch of cheap plastic trains that haven't performed well for Northern or West Mids.

Slow and sensible would been better before any grand plans and promises.

 

[anthony263]

In longer terms plans, yes, the Valleys and many other areas across Wales deserve frequency increases.
In the short term every effort should have been many with a simpler, easy to introduce, consistent and reliable timetable.

Arriva we're far from perfect but they had the card they were dealt by the franchise. But for all their faults at least Arriva had more consistency in the timetable they were running.

To go from barely any growth, and don't forget arriva did put things in that they weren't obliged to, to an overpromise and huge fleet replacement, infrastructure upgrades and various other projects all in one go was ludicrous. As a result many routes have suffered, as has performance. The Valleys lines have seen services reduced in order to cover stock shortages elsewhere. The Treherbert line works has probably saved TFW a few units as well as stopping newport-ebbw vale to some extent.


Agreed but someone, somewhere promised extra frequencies, new routes and capacity boosts all while bringing in a new fleet that was replacing an old fleet and completely missed the complications that were inevitable with that task. As well as buying a bunch of cheap plastic trains that haven't performed well for Northern or West Mids.

Slow and sensible would been better before any grand plans and promises.

Dont forget Arriva originally wanted to order new rolling stock but were stopped by the SRA at the time.

Plus they did have some good ideas same with natex with their bids.

 

[sd0733]

Agreed but someone, somewhere promised extra frequencies, new routes and capacity boosts all while bringing in a new fleet that was replacing an old fleet and completely missed the complications that were inevitable with that task. As well as buying a bunch of cheap plastic trains that haven't performed well for Northern or West Mids.

Slow and sensible would been better before any grand plans and prpromises.

There lies the crux of the issues, introducing 8 new fleets (153/5, 170, 197, 230, 231, 398, 769, Mk4) in a few years, of which 2 have been and gone at the same time as mass refurb/prm of stock, electrifying routes and new timetables was several steps too far at once.
Not only that but promises were made which were (and in many cases still are) completely unachievable and stretch operational, planning and control teams even further.

Other than the 231s not one of the new fleets has performed especially well so far which has hampered things considerably as have various clearance issues brought up on the extensions of coaches to fleets.

I'm sure given the time again things would be done very differently, I highly doubt that anyone who works with or for TFW would deny that many days, weeks and months over the past couple of years have been a total sh*t show and even internally the "it'll be better this time next month/year" wears thin. Lots of people work extremely hard to get things going properly, the issue is they're also stuck with what there is and are pulled in about 9 directions at once.

Once things are up and running Ive no doubt it'll be a very different network from the horror that it's sometimes become but sometimes it feels it really needs a more honest appraisal of where its currently at, why things are like they are, and the work that's going to improve it. Sadly the fallback is to say it'll be better by x date, then that's missed and it creates even more anger and disappointment.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Agreed but someone, somewhere promised extra frequencies, new routes and capacity boosts all while bringing in a new fleet that was replacing an old fleet and completely missed the complications that were inevitable with that task. As well as buying a bunch of cheap plastic trains that haven't performed well for Northern or West Mids.

Slow and sensible would been better before any grand plans and promises.

Definitely and even Janes Price has said it should have been done over more like 10 years.

It would have been nice to have had stadler units throughout the fleet. As SD said above the 231’s introduction has been about the inky smooth one, and I do wonder if that is because they're Stadler and (as far as I know) pretty standard, tried and tested (unlike the 777’s).

 

[Topological]

Except it wasn’t working. Overcrowding was common, demand was stifled, the trains were probably expensive to operate all whilst providing an inadequate quality of service.


I feel like you’re missing the point slightly. Yes, the current Valley passengers don’t want shiny new trains every 5 minutes, but of course they’re not too bothered, they’re already using the service. Modal share is quite low, however, and the WG has (not incorrectly) concluded that shiny new trains every 5 minutes are wanted by people who aren’t using the railway at present.

Obviously, there is a lot of criticism to be made regarding the execution of this grand plan. But you (not directed at anyone in particular) are deluding yourself if you think things were fine before and shouldn’t have been meddled with. The 197s have certainly had a bumpy introduction, but the end result should be vastly better than ATW.

The old system had more trains over the route than the current, and it had more carriages per day. That would suggest that if overcrowding was common, the current mess is worse.

What is wrong with the current situation is the splitting of trains in Cardiff to accommodate the Mk4 and worse, the fact that 150s are running services whilst the 197s do short hops. Finally, the 175s provided toilets that coped with overcrowding and the 197s do not, so better be overcrowded on the original service than the current fix.

IF we get to the double units then that will be progress, but as a regular user of the Marches it seems as if that day is being pushed back and back

I created a speculative thread for ideas for alternatives: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/marches-services.263418/

 

[Lurcheroo]

The old system had more trains over the route than the current, and it had more carriages per day.

Which route exactly are you referring to ? Shrewbury - Newport ?

 

[Topological]

Which route exactly are you referring to ? Shrewbury - Newport ?

Anything where the start point is East of Cardiff and the end is West works

Someone may have data to prove it works for combinations entirely East of Cardiff (though South of Crewe) when the Mk4 are taking a day off for their latest exam. Certainly there were more 3 car 175s than there are 3 car 197s. Even with the Mk4 he 2.5 carriage mk4 have more seats than 3 cars so they can count as 3 even though strictly they are not. IF we allow first class, and I dont think that we should, then obviously a running Mk4 helps the current average against 175s that did not offer 1st.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Anything where the start point is East of Cardiff and the end is West works

Someone may have data to prove it works for combinations entirely East of Cardiff (though South of Crewe) when the Mk4 are taking a day off for their latest exam. Certainly there were more 3 car 175s than there are 3 car 197s. Even with the Mk4 he 2.5 carriage mk4 have more seats than 3 cars so they can count as 3 even though strictly they are not. IF we allow first class, and I dont think that we should, then obviously a running Mk4 helps the current average against 175s that did not offer 1st.

Beyond my knowledge but I’m sure someone knows.

There were 16 3 car 175’s and there will be 26 3 car 197’s though I believe only 14 of those are actually currently in service (if someone could confirm that too).
Of course they’re not just replacing 175’s though.

 

[Anonymous10]

Dont forget Arriva originally wanted to order new rolling stock but were stopped by the SRA at the time.

Plus they did have some good ideas same with natex with their bids.

What stock had they wanted to procure? Turbostars?

 

[Woolos 22]

The old system had more trains over the route than the current, and it had more carriages per day. That would suggest that if overcrowding was common, the current mess is worse.

What is wrong with the current situation is the splitting of trains in Cardiff to accommodate the Mk4 and worse, the fact that 150s are running services whilst the 197s do short hops. Finally, the 175s provided toilets that coped with overcrowding and the 197s do not, so better be overcrowded on the original service than the current fix.

IF we get to the double units then that will be progress, but as a regular user of the Marches it seems as if that day is being pushed back and back

I created a speculative thread for ideas for alternatives: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/marches-services.263418/

When was there a better service on the newport to hereford line?

 

[Topological]

When was there a better service on the newport to hereford line?

You mean for the journey pair Newport to Hereford specifically then it is probably just a comparison between the number of 3 car 175s and what runs the service now.

If you mean people between Hereford and Newport then those who wanted to travel West of Cardiff on a direct train have a much worse service now than before.

Newport to Hereford is also a perfectly adequate distance to be on a 150. Standing for that time is not the end of the world either.

I would argue that there has been no improvement from 2019, even if there has been no real decline either (for the Newport<->Hereford pair specifically)

 

[Bikeman78]

All I know is someone broke a working 175 offering, which is what the maxim applies to.

We had regular 3 carriage trains between South Wales and Manchester every hour (mix of 2 and 3 car), now there's promises of a fix but a regular 3 car service has not run for a long time and there certainly isn't an hourly service any more.

(I think there actually was a 150 diagram during the 175 days, but cannot remember if that had been removed by the end. It was also not unheard of for the 06:27 from Manchester to have a 150 on it when I was a regular, was normally a 2 car 175 though)

The only booked 150s were the 21:55 Cardiff to Crewe and the 23:09 Shrewsbury to Cardiff. They were to cycle the units off the Bidston line and the Crewe to Chester shuttle. The 06:10 Shrewsbury to Cardiff was booked a 158 but often turned out a 150 as it was one of the few 158 diagrams that didn't go on the Cambrian. Whilst the 175s were refurbished, the number of diagrams reduced from 24 to 23. I cannot recall how the 24th diagram was covered on paper but it was around that time that 150s became more common on the Marches. To be honest, they keep time on the Holyheads and the passenger loads rarely exceed two cars for most of the journey. I agree they should be kept off the Manchester trains if at all possible.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said and it's been highlighted many times over recent months. There hasn't been a 150 diagrammed to Manchester for quite some time.
Operationally TFW have a fleet of 5 types that could work Manchester services and work mainline services. Sometimes things go wrong and trains end up where they shouldn't. They end up working services the following day that may be 197 diagrams for that reason.
The 197s aren't reliable, and neither are the mk4s. In an ideal world everything would be reliable and there would be enough slack in the fleet to cover like for like when things go wrong. But that slack isn't there and the go to fleet for backup is 153s and 150s.
It's not as simple as just put the 15x om local routes and use other trains. That practice is done regularly but doesn't get picked up on here, but it also isn't always possible.

The 150 fleet is the only one with much slack in terms of spare units. Plus they are pretty reliable. I have no worries about them breaking down en route. Despite doing up to 950 miles per day, the miles per failure has increased since a year ago.

Finally, someone gets it.
Your last sentence in particular is the whole point of all the disruption. Arriva operated a no-growth franchise and as passenger numbers grew over their franchise period, nothing improved and the service became inadequate. With a lack of steady investment to improve, to catch up was always going to be disruptive.
Once it’s all done and dusted I genuinely do feel that TFW really could be offering some of the best rail services in the country.

It wasn't entirely no growth. They did take on extra units to run more four cars on the valleys. Under TfW, the 12 170s were a massive help. The beginning of 2020 was the best it had been for years, with many more four cars on the valleys. Unfortunately, Covid messed things up somewhat and the Pacers had to go in the bin which made matters worse. With the franchise change in October 2018, it was obvious that Arriva would not be very interested in the PRM deadline and 15 months was not long enough for TfW to do anything about it. Some of us saw this coming a mile off but, apparently, the government did not.

 

[Topological]

The only booked 150s were the 21:55 Cardiff to Crewe and the 23:09 Shrewsbury to Cardiff. They were to cycle the units off the Bidston line and the Crewe to Chester shuttle. The 06:10 Shrewsbury to Cardiff was booked a 158 but often turned out a 150 as it was one of the few 158 diagrams that didn't go on the Cambrian. Whilst the 175s were refurbished, the number of diagrams reduced from 24 to 23. I cannot recall how the 24th diagram was covered on paper but it was around that time that 150s became more common on the Marches. To be honest, they keep time on the Holyheads and the passenger loads rarely exceed two cars for most of the journey. I agree they should be kept off the Manchester trains if at all possible.


The 150 fleet is the only one with much slack in terms of spare units. Plus they are pretty reliable. I have no worries about them breaking down en route. Despite doing up to 950 miles per day, the miles per failure has increased since a year ago.

I was a semi-regular user of the 20:15 from Cardiff to Manchester during the refurbishment time. Often it formed off the Maesteg train and was a 150. Other times it was a 158. I do not recall ever having a 175 on that train. It made sense though since it was a late night one and units do need cycling around.

Now my understanding is that the 20:05(?) forms from the Swansea departure at 19:00 (that used to be the connection into the 20:15) but not officially. I presume that is now 197 more regularly.

Since I now do the commute the other way the fact the 06:27 from Manchester does not go to Swansea has not impacted but I don't do the 19:00 ex Swansea.

 

[Bikeman78]

I was a semi-regular user of the 20:15 from Cardiff to Manchester during the refurbishment time. Often it formed off the Maesteg train and was a 150. Other times it was a 158. I do not recall ever having a 175 on that train. It made sense though since it was a late night one and units do need cycling around.

1W76 20:15 Cardiff to Manchester was also booked a 158. I think it was the same diagram as 1V89 in the morning. It was a through train to Maesteg. Two round trips to Cheltenham, then 19:15 up from Maesteg, then up to Manchester.

Now my understanding is that the 20:05(?) forms from the Swansea departure at 19:00 (that used to be the connection into the 20:15) but not officially. I presume that is now 197 more regularly.

Yes 1B64 forms 1W26. According to RTT they both use platform 2. From June, it is a through train from Milford Haven to Manchester.

 

[Topological]

1W76 20:15 Cardiff to Manchester was also booked a 158. I think it was the same diagram as 1V89 in the morning. It was a through train to Maesteg. Two round trips to Cheltenham, then 19:15 up from Maesteg, then up to Manchester.

Thank you.

So in the quest to find a place where the current timetable is an improvement, the new version of the 20:15 is at least a 197 (though the 158 is a nice train, the number of 150s I got in that 20:15 slot was too high)

 

[anthony263]

What stock had they wanted to procure? Turbostars?

Yes a fleet of class 170s

 

[Topological]

Yes 1B64 forms 1W26. According to RTT they both use platform 2. From June, it is a through train from Milford Haven to Manchester.

That is good news. Although RTT said it was the same train it would be a brave passenger who used it as a connection.

Now if they could just let the 18:30 from Manchester form the 22:15 from Cardiff to Carmarthen... (2 weeks ago it did, but only after 15 minutes stood on a very cold Central station) That 22:15 is booked to use the unit that comes in at 22:04 from the West though.

(Worth saying the 18:30 is the missing Mk4 diagram so if availability ever improves that will not be possible to run through to Carmarthen)

 

[Jez]

1W76 20:15 Cardiff to Manchester was also booked a 158. I think it was the same diagram as 1V89 in the morning. It was a through train to Maesteg. Two round trips to Cheltenham, then 19:15 up from Maesteg, then up to Manchester.


Yes 1B64 forms 1W26. According to RTT they both use platform 2. From June, it is a through train from Milford Haven to Manchester.

that is good news as it will mean a later direct departure to Manchester from stations such as Carmarthen and Swansea. Currently the last direct Manchester from Swansea is around 1655. An hour earlier than it was before the MK4's came in to account for the 1855 ex Cardiff being a MK4.

That is good news. Although RTT said it was the same train it would be a brave passenger who used it as a connection.

Haha we said the same thing! I agree, i would not risk it being a connection especially as units often get swapped about.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Dont forget Arriva originally wanted to order new rolling stock but were stopped by the SRA at the time.

ATW did get the full 175 fleet, taking TPE's share when their 185s arrived.

 

[BillStampy]

197107 just swapped services with 197012, 107 to Maesteg and 012 to Chester, supposing 012 needs to be at Chester tonight for something as swapping it for no reason is a bit bizzare especially seeing that 012 is a 2 car heading up the North!

 

[Rhydgaled]

The keolis franchise sold the over ambitious dream to the Welsh Government who have no idea how the railway runs but then let the ideas run away with them.

The plan should have been to rebuild a simpler, reliable and consistent service after Arriva.

The KeolisAmey franchise plan was a simpler, reliable and consistent service. Consistently outer-suburban that is, outside the valleys Metro, even on 5hr journeys to the likes of Pwllheli. Almost everything would have been a 197; or a 170/230 on specific routes - away from the south-east Metro it sounded like only Swansea - Clarbeston Road (and possibly Llandudno Junction to Llandudno) and Holyhead-Cardiff would have seen a mixed fleet if KeolisAmey had managed to implement their plans. Remember they only planned three sets of mark 4s, replacing the three sets of mark 3s in the ATW fleet but reallocating the North Wales - Manchester set to Holyhead-Cardiff services to bring that up to three LHCS each way. It wasn't until COVID forced Keolis to throw in the towel (and somebody realised that Southern weren't going to give up their 171s to EMR, so they came after the TfW 170s instead) that mark 4s to Manchester became part of the plan.

 

[nigelsporne]

With all this having to move 197s up to Chester from the South for exam/maintenance or whatever are there any plans to have the units serviced in S Wales? Don't TfW trust their fellow countrymen with a spanner in their hands? All this must be a scheduling nightmare.

 

[31160]

Have they started the training for the North Wales to Birminghams yet

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Have they started the training for the North Wales to Birminghams yet

None have been cleared between Shrewsbury and Birmingham Int yet, so no.

 

[craigybagel]

With all this having to move 197s up to Chester from the South for exam/maintenance or whatever are there any plans to have the units serviced in S Wales? Don't TfW trust their fellow countrymen with a spanner in their hands? All this must be a scheduling nightmare.

Nothing they didn't have to deal with in the past given most 175 work took place in Chester, and 158s are still based in Mach. Canton has plenty of work looking after the local fleet down there.

Have they started the training for the North Wales to Birminghams yet

Very little training required down there, given all 3 drivers depots and 3 of the 4 guards depots that sign Birmingham have already trained up virtually all their crew on 197s (Machynlleth guards are the odd ones out). Proving runs for the units themselves is yet to take place however.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Have they started the training for the North Wales to Birminghams yet

Nope.
No proving runs done, no ASDO profiles and Cambrian Conductors not trained.

Heard further talks today they’re still shouting 197’s for the Cambrian this year, with training runs set to happen in a few weeks but no training dates have been given yet for train crews.

 

[Topological]

I note only 1 diagram that is supposed to be 197 today isnt, and that is the second trip to Manchester on the missing Mk4 run. The first run as the 0532 from Swansea was 197 but the second trip north to eventually be the 18:30 from Manchester is 2 x 153 instead.

2 carriages is not enough for a peak train in Manchester, but at least there are more 197/1s today and the Mk4 seem to be doing all their diagrams as planned.

 

[Cestrian21]

Nope.
No proving runs done, no ASDO profiles and Cambrian Conductors not trained.

Heard further talks today they’re still shouting 197’s for the Cambrian this year, with training runs set to happen in a few weeks but no training dates have been given yet for train crews.

I wonder what the rush is to get 197s on the Cambrian? It's not like the 158s are needed elsewhere.

 

[Dai Corner]

I wonder what the rush is to get 197s on the Cambrian? It's not like the 158s are needed elsewhere.

GWR, for example, could do with them and it gets them off TfW's books. Don't overlook the political effect of shiny new trains either.