CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[BenBracken]

TfW have just put out that 58/71 197s are now in service. Is that everything apart from Cambrian units? I’ve not been aware of any 15x in west Wales recently (but I’ve not been looking that hard) so are the non Cambrian services up to full strength?

 

[Krokodil]

Remember that 197s are still covering for the beleaguered 230s, and others are working routes ultimately destined for 231s once Valley Lines electrification allows a cascade.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Remember that 197s are still covering for the beleaguered 230s, and others are working routes ultimately destined for 231s once Valley Lines electrification allows a cascade.

And also the woefully unreliable 67s/Mk4 sets, only 2 sets today are out, should be 5 out on weekdays but rarely are 5 available (out of 7 sets)

 

[Jez]

TfW have just put out that 58/71 197s are now in service. Is that everything apart from Cambrian units? I’ve not been aware of any 15x in west Wales recently (but I’ve not been looking that hard) so are the non Cambrian services up to full strength?

I think its 61 now in service. All the non Cambrian ones and 5 of the Cambrian (003/028/030/033/034)

And also the woefully unreliable 67s/Mk4 sets, only 2 sets today are out, should be 5 out on weekdays but rarely are 5 available (out of 7 sets)

Indeed. Quite a few short formed today including a few 2 cars on the Manchester to South Wales. Maybe not so much a problem with the 197s but more 3 are required to cover MK4's.

They are covering routes that will eventually be 231s and 230s but at the moment they are booked workings unlike when they cover MK4's

 

[Jacob Porrett]

What are the diagrams for the 197s on the Salop next week please?

 

[tfw756rider]

TfW have just put out that 58/71 197s are now in service. Is that everything apart from Cambrian units?

I think its 61 now in service. All the non Cambrian ones and 5 of the Cambrian (003/028/030/033/034)

That's odd - 62 (of 77) 197s "have been in service" - all 56 non-ETCS units, plus 6 (of 21) ETCS-fitted units (197003/028/030/031/033/034), so I'm not sure why Transport for Wales would understate it as 58.

Maybe 4 are "down" (for example including 197101 if it's still in two separate halves?) so that could be why (and could also explain why they've only just stated that they've passed the half-way mark with getting their overall 148 new trains in service, whereas I have it as 57%).

 

[Lewisham2221]

Looks much better on the Marches today (according to RTT) - of the 197 operated journeys there's one 4-car working, everything else is (currently) showing as 5-car (except the 1930 onwards which are all booked as a single unit anyway).

 

[Jez]

Looks much better on the Marches today (according to RTT) - of the 197 operated journeys there's one 4-car working, everything else is (currently) showing as 5-car (except the 1930 onwards which are all booked as a single unit anyway).

It certainly seems much better today. Ive noticed quite a few Sprinters allocated to Maesteg-Ebbw Vale and Cardiff-Cheltenham services but that is not so much of an issue as its better than the long distance services being short formed or formed of Sprinters.

 

[Diedinium]

Seen a notice today that the 197s are due to enter into service to Birmingham International on the 17th February - max formation 7 cars, although Wellington platform 1 is 6 cars maximum so not sure how or if that will ever occur.

 

[Sheridan]

I can imagine there being 3x2car sets booked at peak times and I suppose a 3-car appearing on one of the diagrams isn’t too fanciful. I’ve seen most of the stations on that route have Car Stop Markers for 7 cars - often there’ll be a 2-3 board and a 4-7 or just a 2-7. This makes me think that maybe West Mids have already got 7-car 196s cleared so it’s not too tricky to do the same for 197s.

As for Wellington, hopefully ASDO will take care of that if the need ever arises?

 

[Krokodil]

Given that a peak train out of Manchester was two-vice-five this evening, it'll be a long time before we see seven car lash-ups on the Birminghams.

How long are the Shrewsbury bay platforms out of interest?

 

[D6975]

That's odd - 62 (of 77) 197s "have been in service" - all 56 non-ETCS units, plus 6 (of 21) ETCS-fitted units (197003/028/030/031/033/034), so I'm not sure why Transport for Wales would understate it as 58.

You can add 197045 to that list, I saw it in service when I was across in S Wales a couple of weeks ago.

 

[sd0733]

As for Wellington, hopefully ASDO will take care of that if the need ever arises?

They'll be banned from stopping there as 7s. The test caused issues with not clearing the track circuits which caused quite a few issues.

You can add 197045 to that list, I saw it in service when I was across in S Wales a couple of weeks ago.

045 is a non ERTMS set and has been in service for a long while. All the non-ERTMS sets (001/002/004-021/042-051) have been in service for some time.

 

[craigybagel]

I can imagine there being 3x2car sets booked at peak times and I suppose a 3-car appearing on one of the diagrams isn’t too fanciful. I’ve seen most of the stations on that route have Car Stop Markers for 7 cars - often there’ll be a 2-3 board and a 4-7 or just a 2-7. This makes me think that maybe West Mids have already got 7-car 196s cleared so it’s not too tricky to do the same for 197s.

As for Wellington, hopefully ASDO will take care of that if the need ever arises?

ASDO isn't the issue (other than Telford, none of the intermediate stations have 7 car platforms), it's the positioning of signals and points that mean you can't have 7 cars on the up platform without fouling one or the other

 

[simonmpoulton]

That's odd - 62 (of 77) 197s "have been in service" - all 56 non-ETCS units, plus 6 (of 21) ETCS-fitted units (197003/028/030/031/033/034), so I'm not sure why Transport for Wales would understate it as 58.

Maybe 4 are "down" (for example including 197101 if it's still in two separate halves?) so that could be why (and could also explain why they've only just stated that they've passed the half-way mark with getting their overall 148 new trains in service, whereas I have it as 57%).

It looks better for them with the reliability probably!

 

[Sheridan]

ASDO isn't the issue (other than Telford, none of the intermediate stations have 7 car platforms), it's the positioning of signals and points that mean you can't have 7 cars on the up platform without fouling one or the other

Thanks for the clarification! I remember the signal being at the end of the platform rather than the end of the loop but didn’t realise it was as tight as that at the other end.

 

[tfw756rider]

It looks better for them with the reliability probably!

I guess so

 

[Kite159]

I can imagine there being 3x2car sets booked at peak times and I suppose a 3-car appearing on one of the diagrams isn’t too fanciful. I’ve seen most of the stations on that route have Car Stop Markers for 7 cars - often there’ll be a 2-3 board and a 4-7 or just a 2-7. This makes me think that maybe West Mids have already got 7-car 196s cleared so it’s not too tricky to do the same for 197s.

As for Wellington, hopefully ASDO will take care of that if the need ever arises?

Which would be unusual considering the 196s are 2 or 4 coaches long so can't be made up to be 7 coaches (unlike the 197s)

 

[tfw756rider]

I’ve seen most of the stations on that route have Car Stop Markers for 7 cars - often there’ll be a 2-3 board and a 4-7 or just a 2-7. This makes me think that maybe West Mids have already got 7-car 196s cleared so it’s not too tricky to do the same for 197s.

7-car 196s can't be formed though; 196s are 2-car and 4-car, unlike the 2-car and 3-car 197s.

 

[Sheridan]

Which would be unusual considering the 196s are 2 or 4 coaches long so can't be made up to be 7 coaches (unlike the 197s)

7-car 196s can't be formed though; 196s are 2-car and 4-car, unlike the 2-car and 3-car 197s.

Ah, I had it in my head they were 3s and 4s - and seeing the 7-car stop markers probably played into that! Thank you both

 

[tfw756rider]

Seen a notice today that the 197s are due to enter into service to Birmingham International on the 17th February

Thanks for this - my family (who live over in this service area) were asking if this will mean they'll have to change at Shrewsbury (when travelling Cambrian-Birmingham / Birmingham-Cambrian - as in, between 158/197 or 197/158 respectively) and obviously I said "yes, until the 197s also enter service on the Cambrian".

Can anyone provide me with more details though? Any of the following would be much appreciated:

1) Which Transport for Wales services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham will become 197-operated on Monday the 17/2/25, and which (if any) will initially remain 158-operated?

2) How will the "158 between Cambrian stations and Shrewsbury but 197 between Shrewsbury and Birmingham" services be scheduled / advertised? Will the schedules stay the same or change? At Cambrian stations (for example), will Customer Information Screens say "change of train at Shrewsbury for passengers travelling to stations Wellington through Birmingham International"? Will on-train announcements be routinely made about the change of train? etc.

3) When will 197 driver training start on the Cambrian? It's February 2025 and I'm still not aware of any such training having started. The last I knew of Cambrian 197s was the 2024 test runs - surely 197 driver training on the Cambrian should start soon, as even if entry to service is in late 2025 / early 2026 (or whenever it is?), that's 7 months to a year of the temporary "158 between Cambrian stations and Shrewsbury but 197 between Shrewsbury and Birmingham" situation.

Thanks in advance for response to any of the above from anyone

 

[sd0733]

There looks to be a couple of Sunday evening services which are 197 booked, theyre likely from the 23rd but obviously can still end up substituted. I can't see anything else actually booked Mon-Sat although once they start it's likely they'll head that way ad-hoc until more proper diagrams come on stream.

The Sundays look to be:
2 car:
19:37 Chester to Birmingham Intl
22:11 Birmingham Intl to Shrewsbury

3 car:
18:25 Holyhead to Birmingham Intl
22:40 Birmingham Intl to Chester.

There just isn't going to be a massive jump to 197 operation straight away severing everything at Shrewsbury, there just isn't enough units reliably in service for that.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

I've heard the same as well about 197s starting on the Salop line on Monday.

 

[craigybagel]

I can imagine there being 3x2car sets booked at peak times and I suppose a 3-car appearing on one of the diagrams isn’t too fanciful. I’ve seen most of the stations on that route have Car Stop Markers for 7 cars - often there’ll be a 2-3 board and a 4-7 or just a 2-7. This makes me think that maybe West Mids have already got 7-car 196s cleared so it’s not too tricky to do the same for 197s.

Which would be unusual considering the 196s are 2 or 4 coaches long so can't be made up to be 7 coaches (unlike the 197s)

7-car 196s can't be formed though; 196s are 2-car and 4-car, unlike the 2-car and 3-car 197s.

As the 196s have their ASDO isolated, 4 cars are the defacto limit along the Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton line in passenger service, unless they only call at Wellington and Telford. The stop boards for longer trains are only for TfW use.

 

[Caaardiff]

They are officially allowed to run into Birmingham from Monday but there are currently no plans until the May timetable change for them to be diagrammed, and even then it will only be on Sundays as SD mentions.

The 158 situation is dire so it will create flexibility when 197s are covering 158 work, which is what is currently happening with Holyhead services and being swapped at Shrewsbury. Short term plans may be put in place between Monday and May TT but that is dependant on 158 availability.

Also Holyhead services come back from Birmingham as Aberystwyth services, so there will still be swaps required at some point.

3) When will 197 driver training start on the Cambrian? It's February 2025 and I'm still not aware of any such training having started. The last I knew of Cambrian 197s was the 2024 test runs - surely 197 driver training on the Cambrian should start soon, as even if entry to service is in late 2025 / early 2026 (or whenever it is?), that's 7 months to a year of the temporary "158 between Cambrian stations and Shrewsbury but 197 between Shrewsbury and Birmingham" situation.

There was a 4 car test run today.
It's unlikely 197s will be in service on the Cambrian line before the last quarter of this year.

 

[tomuk]

So were a just back to the status quo ante with sets swaps ago go but with 197s instead of 150\153s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How long are the Shrewsbury bay platforms out of interest?

Platforms 5 and 6 at Shrewsbury are shown as 121m in the Sectional Appendix.
So 5x23m seems to be the limit.

 

[Krokodil]

Platforms 5 and 6 at Shrewsbury are shown as 121m in the Sectional Appendix.
So 5x23m seems to be the limit.

197 vehicles are 24m long, which would make 120m in total. Very tight - they've stopped letting 5 car 197s use P2 and P3B at Chester on the basis that while the train fits there's not enough margin for error.

You can use a through platform of course (and anything which includes a North Wales portion will need this anyway) but there are only three of them.

 

[Lurcheroo]

My understanding is that 7 cars were cleared for the Birmingham line as there will be booked work where a 4 car comes from the Cambrian, and couples to another 2 car from somewhere else, to make it a 6 car.

I imagine this will either be for the approx. 07:30 or 15:30 departures. But there is the possibility the additional 2 car could be swapped for a 3 so instead of being forced to send it as a 4 car, they can send the whole 7 but will have to not stop at Wellington for reasons stated above.

 

[craigybagel]

Platforms 5 and 6 at Shrewsbury are shown as 121m in the Sectional Appendix.
So 5x23m seems to be the limit.

197 vehicles are 24m long, which would make 120m in total. Very tight - they've stopped letting 5 car 197s use P2 and P3B at Chester on the basis that while the train fits there's not enough margin for error.

As per the notices in depots, 4 is the maximum allowed in the Shrewsbury bays

My understanding is that 7 cars were cleared for the Birmingham line as there will be booked work where a 4 car comes from the Cambrian, and couples to another 2 car from somewhere else, to make it a 6 car.

I imagine this will either be for the approx. 07:30 or 15:30 departures. But there is the possibility the additional 2 car could be swapped for a 3 so instead of being forced to send it as a 4 car, they can send the whole 7 but will have to not stop at Wellington for reasons stated above.

This would make a lot of sense. Not calling at Wellington on the way in is probably a less bad outcome than running those services with 4 cars.