CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Topological]

I would be interested in a quote for that. Because I don’t think that’s the the same as TfW has said to various stakeholders over the years.

Yes everything was down as 5 cars yesterday and today. While both Mk4 and 197 availability is as poor as it is, it's going to be tough to have the required amount of sets available. Mk4s cycle between excellent and terrible availability and the 197s consistently are about 10% short of required sets. Hopefully things do improve soon as when everything runs as booked it makes a huge difference.

However, the real source is the timetable.

Thread on the consultation here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw-2024-timetable-consultation.265917/

@Jez has already answered as well.

I do not know what TfW has said to stakeholders, but the public information has been 5-car. In this thread you see them saying 2+2 is booked, or whatever, but that is STP rather than what is really booked as a lay person would understand booked. The lay person would see the timetable constitution and conclude that Manchester to Swansea/Cardiff for the Mk4 and their unsuitable 67s is 5-car all day (only the later night trains out of Manchester are booked less than 5 because a splitting arrival allows a Mk4 set to stay in the north).

 

[Krokodil]

The catering area does waste a lot of space but only because its not being used.

It would still be wasting space even if it was used.

 

[Jez]

It would still be wasting space even if it was used.

Why? Surely.if it was being used it was be good use of space.as providing a service to customers. Currently it is just sitting idle doing nothing..

 

[Krokodil]

Why? Surely.if it was being used it was be good use of space.as providing a service to customers. Currently it is just sitting idle doing nothing..

Firstly catering runs at a loss, those spaces would be far more productive if used as extra seating/luggage/bike storage. Secondly, how much do you think that they'll actually get used? I doubt that there's even 50% trolley coverage on trains.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Firstly catering runs at a loss, those spaces would be far more productive if used as extra seating/luggage/bike storage. Secondly, how much do you think that they'll actually get used? I doubt that there's even 50% trolley coverage on trains.

Additional luggage space would be very welcome indeed. Probably starting to stray into speculative territory here though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Why? Surely.if it was being used it was be good use of space.as providing a service to customers. Currently it is just sitting idle doing nothing..

Even if it was being used, presumably when units are running in multiple only one catering cupboard would be in use.

 

[Diedinium]

Ok so this is a very silly driver specific complaint but it sort of shows the state of the 197 fleet and the really terrible software onboard these trains:

I swear that every single 197 I've driven recently has had the cab heaters broken, they're just on all the time, constantly throwing out heat and making the cabs uncomfortable. The air con then runs all the time as well trying to fight against this heat. There are never any faults that show on the TCMS, like you'd expect. Only way to 'fix' it is to trip out the cab heater breaker.

How hard would it have been to check the cabs when accepting these trains to go 'when we set the temperature does it actually maintain that temperature' or even simpler 'do the heaters turn off when it reaches it's goal temperature'. I'm guessing these faults are being caused by either the thermostats controlling the system not working correctly, or being fitted incorrectly. Or just simply a software bug.

197s are riddled with little things like this, it shouldn't be like this with such a new fleet of trains. Working cabin control is something that cars have had right for nearly two decades, and yet CAF somehow can't manage it.

 

[WirralLine]

Ok so this is a very silly driver specific complaint but it sort of shows the state of the 197 fleet and the really terrible software onboard these trains:

I swear that every single 197 I've driven recently has had the cab heaters broken, they're just on all the time, constantly throwing out heat and making the cabs uncomfortable. The air con then runs all the time as well trying to fight against this heat. There are never any faults that show on the TCMS, like you'd expect. Only way to 'fix' it is to trip out the cab heater breaker.

How hard would it have been to check the cabs when accepting these trains to go 'when we set the temperature does it actually maintain that temperature' or even simpler 'do the heaters turn off when it reaches it's goal temperature'. I'm guessing these faults are being caused by either the thermostats controlling the system not working correctly, or being fitted incorrectly. Or just simply a software bug.

197s are riddled with little things like this, it shouldn't be like this with such a new fleet of trains. Working cabin control is something that cars have had right for nearly two decades, and yet CAF somehow can't manage it.

On the contrary as a guard in the back you can whack it up to 26c and get no heating at all and blow lukewarm/cold.

 

[iceolate]

On the contrary as a guard in the back you can whack it up to 26c and get no heating at all and blow lukewarm/cold.

It's not much better for passengers either. You can be frozen, cold or merely a little uncomfortable. I don't think I've ever experienced what could be described as a warm or hot 197, I'm sure it's ruse to do more business in hot drinks from the trolley.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

It's not much better for passengers either. You can be frozen, cold or merely a little uncomfortable. I don't think I've ever experienced what could be described as a warm or hot 197, I'm sure it's ruse to do more business in hot drinks from the trolley.

I was on one earlier today which was definitely warm (thankfully). As a regular user of 197s it does seem to be an area that has improved of late.

 

[cheekybifta]

Noticed on 197125 all the velcro headrests have been removed from Standard Plus, except one you can see on the left of the photo.

Assuming they were there in the first place, I wonder if they're being removed as part of Standard Plus being cancelled.

 

[WirralLine]

Noticed on 197125 all the velcro headrests have been removed from Standard Plus, except one you can see on the left of the photo.

Assuming they were there in the first place, I wonder if they're being removed as part of Standard Plus being cancelled.

People have been robbing them since day 1 which is a shame.

 

[Anonymous10]

People have been robbing them since day 1 which is a shame.

I find it makes the seats a little less comfy. Maybe velcro wasn't the best choice...

 

[Jez]

It's not much better for passengers either. You can be frozen, cold or merely a little uncomfortable. I don't think I've ever experienced what could be described as a warm or hot 197

Except on a hot day in the summer when the air con isn't working !

Noticed on 197125 all the velcro headrests have been removed from Standard Plus, except one you can see on the left of the photo.

Assuming they were there in the first place, I wonder if they're being removed as part of Standard Plus being cancelled.

I doubt it. Especially as the SP branding appears to be there. They might as well leave the seats as they are until they do a refurbishment of the entire set which given they are only a year or so old won't be for some time yet..

 

[tfw756rider]

I find it makes the seats a little less comfy. Maybe velcro wasn't the best choice...

Just to be clear, are you saying the seats are less comfortable with or without the velcro-attached head rests?

Also, I haven't sat on any of those seats (only the normal "standard class" improved Fainsa Sophia 197 seats) but they look like they'd be quite uncomfortable with that curved design, judging by seats on a coach that I sat on that were curved like that and actually branded Fainsa (I'm assuming these 197 ex-"First Class / Standard Plus" seats are one of Fainsa's offerings).

 

[Anonymous10]

Just to be clear, are you saying the seats are less comfortable with or without the velcro-attached head rests?

Also, I haven't sat on any of those seats (only the normal "standard class" improved Fainsa Sophia 197 seats) but they look like they'd be quite uncomfortable with that curved design, judging by seats on a coach that I sat on that were curved like that and actually branded Fainsa (I'm assuming these 197 ex-"First Class / Standard Plus" seats are one of Fainsa's offerings).

Less comfortable without the headrest. The velcro is irritating.

 

[tfw756rider]

Less comfortable without the headrest. The velcro is irritating.

I see. Hopefully Transport for Wales (Rail) will come up with a solution for that, along with removing the Standard Plus branding of course.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Less comfortable without the headrest. The velcro is irritating.

I suspect a solution will be arrived at long after a natural solution prevails.
The velcro will not be so "sticky" once it has collected a few months worth of fluff, hair and grease.
TfW could stick something over the velcro on the head rest. That would have to have the other half of the velcro on it BUT then that would be easy for a souvenir hunter to remove again after all !.

 

[Jez]

Following on from a discussion in the MK4 thread, ive noticed quite a few of the 3 car 197s, in particular the non Standard Plus ones are out of service. More so than the 2 cars. Also of those 3 cars in service we have 1 on Crewe-Chester shuttle and a few on Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham/Maesteg etc.

 

[BillStampy]

Following on from a discussion in the MK4 thread, ive noticed quite a few of the 3 car 197s, in particular the non Standard Plus ones are out of service. More so than the 2 cars. Also of those 3 cars in service we have 1 on Crewe-Chester shuttle and a few on Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham/Maesteg etc.

I'm still confused on where 197101 is, it simply vanished.

197120 and 197113 are lurking around Ebbw, Cheltenham and Maestegs...

As for the rest I'm unsure what the issue is...

 

[Jez]

I'm still confused on where 197101 is, it simply vanished.

197120 and 197113 are lurking around Ebbw, Cheltenham and Maestegs...

As for the rest I'm unsure what the issue is...

Wasnt 197101 taken somewhere for repairs? Unsure what the issue with it is.

 

[Caaardiff]

Wasnt 197101 taken somewhere for repairs? Unsure what the issue with it is.

It's somewhere in Derby for repairs after the derailment at Canton.
197104 is at CAF after that derailed a few weeks ago.

 

[sd0733]

The 3 cars always seem to have struggled availability and reliability wise, not too sure if it's because there's more parts to go wrong or something else! There's only 15 available today, from a fleet of 22 (2 not in use yet and 2 out with derailment damage) but the ones not in service are mostly on work somewhere or long term stopped.

101 and 104 are out for derailment damage from Canton and Chester respectively
102 is at Barton Under Needwood for tyre turning
103 at Crewe ETD for tyre turning
107 has been at Chester since 15th December
110 has been at Holyhead since 29th December
112 has been at Crewe ETD for tyre turning but headed back to Chester earlier

 

[Krokodil]

The 3 cars always seem to have struggled availability and reliability wise, not too sure if it's because there's more parts to go wrong or something else!

Pinching the final drives (or other bits) from the centre cars and fitting them to the two car sets in order to keep as many units in service as possible instead of sitting waiting parts doesn't help. It means that the remaining two engines have to do the work of three and wears things out quicker. Keeping spare parts in stock doesn't seem to be the modern way, a far cry from the days when the Western Region achieved very high ability from its hydraulic fleet by having a substantial stock of spares on hand to quickly swap out parts.

 

[50002Superb]

The 3 cars always seem to have struggled availability and reliability wise, not too sure if it's because there's more parts to go wrong or something else! There's only 15 available today, from a fleet of 22 (2 not in use yet and 2 out with derailment damage) but the ones not in service are mostly on work somewhere or long term stopped.

101 and 104 are out for derailment damage from Canton and Chester respectively
102 is at Barton Under Needwood for tyre turning
103 at Crewe ETD for tyre turning
107 has been at Chester since 15th December
110 has been at Holyhead since 29th December
112 has been at Crewe ETD for tyre turning but headed back to Chester earlier

Any sign of 123 or 126 yet @sd0733 ?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Any sign of 123 or 126 yet @sd0733 ?

196126 is at Arriva TrainCare Crewe depot at the moment.

 

[Russel]

I overheard a conversation on a 197 last week between several tfw staff. They appeared to be saying that the catering cupboards are to be removed from the units. Any truth in this?

I doubt it, from what I've been told the things have somehow been made integral to the unit (no idea why/how). One of the new Cambrian units has got a bi-fold door which doesn‘t obstruct the aisle so they're clearly making an effort to make the things more practical.

The catering cupboard is especially wasteful on the 2 car units, why any of the units were ordered with them, give how predictable it is that they will see little to no use raises questions....

On the subject of them being integral, isn't this the same as the guards office on the 350/1's, which is why it's never been properly removed?

 

[sd0733]

Pinching the final drives (or other bits) from the centre cars and fitting them to the two car sets in order to keep as many units in service as possible instead of sitting waiting parts doesn't help. It means that the remaining two engines have to do the work of three and wears things out quicker. Keeping spare parts in stock doesn't seem to be the modern way, a far cry from the days when the Western Region achieved very high ability from its hydraulic fleet by having a substantial stock of spares on hand to quickly swap out parts.

That definitely doesn't help. Hopefully something that's improved if there's ever going to be decent availability. Sets with parts missing and others sat waiting for bits shouldn't be the case with a brand new fleet.

Any sign of 123 or 126 yet @sd0733 ?

123 is at Crewe South Yard and has been there since October but not too sure where 126 is or what stage it's acceptance is at.
It does seem strange that ERTMS units have leapfrogged them in going into service.

 

[43096]

On the subject of them being integral, isn't this the same as the guards office on the 350/1's, which is why it's never been properly removed?

The guard’s office on the 350s is not integral - it has been removed on the 450s.

 

[50002Superb]

That definitely doesn't help. Hopefully something that's improved if there's ever going to be decent availability. Sets with parts missing and others sat waiting for bits shouldn't be the case with a brand new fleet.


123 is at Crewe South Yard and has been there since October but not too sure where 126 is or what stage it's acceptance is at.
It does seem strange that ERTMS units have leapfrogged them in going into service.

Yeah that’s what I found baffling too