CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Jacob Porrett]

Does anyone know where 197022/23/25/26/27/32/36-41 are?

From this forum, 22/23/27/36 were last reported at Crewe. Are they still there?

Many thanks

Also for the record, all the non-ETCS 197/0s have now worked the Bidston line plus 03/28/30/31/33/34

197022 and 197023 are at Crewe depot at the moment. Hopefully I'll be cleaning 197022 today at work.

 

[Chorley Cake]

197022 and 197023 are at Crewe depot at the moment. Hopefully I'll be cleaning 197022 today at work.

Whereabouts at Crewe are the new units Jacob ? In the Carriage sidings complex or in the main yard where the 365s where for a while ?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Whereabouts at Crewe are the new units Jacob ? In the Carriage sidings complex or in the main yard where the 365s where for a while ?

197022 is in the maintenance shed, 197023 is in the carriage shed and some are in South Yard.

 

[Dai Corner]

This month's Modern Railways reports the TfW CEO James Price as saying that he is disappointed with the slow delivery of the remaining 197s and that availability is typically four units less than booked. He says TfW have used contractural/financial sanctions but they're not working. He thinks that exerting 'political and societal pressure' to tarnish CAF's reputation may be the next step.

Apparently CAF declined MR's invitation to comment.

TRANSPORT FOR Wales Chief Executive James Price says he wants 'political and social pressure' applied to train manufacturers because the financial penalties in contracts do not produce all the desired results.

He told a Senedd committee in January that TfW was still: 'experiencing delays from our manufacturers, both Stadler and CAF, and it's important to both work in partnership with them and to hold them to account in every way possible.

Modern Railways March 2025

March 2025 issue of Modern Railways in page-turning format features as its lead cover story 'New trains, new thinking'. Great Western Railway, Chiltern and East West Rail could jointly order new

www.modernrailways.com

 

[tfw756rider]

This month's Modern Railways reports the TfW CEO James Price as saying that he is disappointed with the slow delivery of the remaining 197s and that availability is typically four units less than booked. He says TfW have used contractural/financial sanctions but they're not working. He thinks that exerting 'political and societal pressure' to tarnish CAF's reputation may be the next step.

Apparently CAF declined MR's invitation to comment.

Oof, it's going to be interesting to see how that goes if it happens.

 

[simonmpoulton]

At the end of the day if the product is unreliable and can't be made reliable without significant expenditure on CAF's part I just can't see anything changing. They are a business at the end of the day and supplied a product at the quoted cost. Until the railways approach of looking for the absolute cheapest product changes then i'm afraid we are going to continue with these issues! You get what you pay for at the end of the day and it's always been like this.

 

[nwales58]

Political and societal pressure so no new CAF orders, Newport plant shuts, job losses … hang on, he’s an experienced civil servant, surely not a desirable outcome?

I thought this was the point in the story where you blamed your contract lawyers.

 

[Dai Corner]

At the end of the day if the product is unreliable and can't be made reliable without significant expenditure on CAF's part I just can't see anything changing. They are a business at the end of the day and supplied a product at the quoted cost. Until the railways approach of looking for the absolute cheapest product changes then i'm afraid we are going to continue with these issues! You get what you pay for at the end of the day and it's always been like this.

If CAF find it's cheaper to pay the penalties than comply with the contract that's what they'll probably do.

Political and societal pressure so no new CAF orders, Newport plant shuts, job losses … hang on, he’s an experienced civil servant, surely not a desirable outcome?

I thought this was the point in the story where you blamed your contract lawyers.

I presume problems at the Newport assembly plant are the reason for the late deliveries? I'm not sure it has any new orders so will be closing anyway. The best workers may be leaving for more secure jobs already, compounding the problem.

 

[tfw756rider]

I presume problems at the Newport assembly plant are the reason for the late deliveries? I'm not sure it has any new orders so will be closing anyway.

8 of the 897s (supposedly).

 

[Chorley Cake]

036 is working back and to between Crewe Station and South Yard today.

 

[Western 52]

8 of the 897s (supposedly).

Is there tram construction there? From passing trains it looks like some are parked outside.

 

[John R]

At the end of the day if the product is unreliable and can't be made reliable without significant expenditure on CAF's part I just can't see anything changing. They are a business at the end of the day and supplied a product at the quoted cost. Until the railways approach of looking for the absolute cheapest product changes then i'm afraid we are going to continue with these issues! You get what you pay for at the end of the day and it's always been like this.

The IET procurement is a good example where an eyewateringly expensive procurement doesn’t necessarily bring you the quality and reliability you’ve paid for.

 

[rich.davies]

Used a couple of 3 car 197's this week, and chose to sit in the former "Standard Plus" section. Very spacious and comfortable, can tell people are still weary of sitting in there due to the vinyls on the doors. Unless your in the know, you won't sit in there I guess.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Quite the farce just now with 197113 on the 1547 Lime St to Chester. Doors failed with the guard stuck outside so no one to provide any updates for 20 minutes. Was fairly evident what was happening as I sat at the front near the cab and could hear the convo. Unit reset failed to work so unit failed and driver had to use his key and then prise open the front-most door.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Quite the farce just now with 197113 on the 1547 Lime St to Chester. Doors failed with the guard stuck outside so no one to provide any updates for 20 minutes. Was fairly evident what was happening as I sat at the front near the cab and could hear the convo. Unit reset failed to work so unit failed and driver had to use his key and then prise open the front-most door.

Oh dear. Trains seem to be so "clever" these days. But all the features need to be reliable. It is all getting rather complicated so higher risk. Effectively being trapped is not good.

Is this kind of problem (doors locked shut) very unusual for 197s ?.
Is it unusual amongst 195s, 196s, 331s and 897s ?.
Does it happen with other manufacturers ?.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Oh dear. Trains seem to be so "clever" these days. But all the features need to be reliable. It is all getting rather complicated so higher risk. Effectively being trapped is not good.

Is this kind of problem (doors locked shut) very unusual for 197s ?.
Is it unusual amongst 195s, 196s, 331s and 897s ?.
Does it happen with other manufacturers ?.

Certainly doesn’t seem unusual for 197s to have door issues in my experience.

Not quite sure how the whole thing happened to be honest. I boarded about 1533 and all was fine, so not sure what happened. Presumably the driver left the cab on arrival and changed ends and the guard was then unable to unlock that end.

The driver made it into the cab for the journey to Chester as it sounded like multiple resets happening (lots of sounds of “TPWS and AWS operational”), probably 6-8 times, then the engines were shut down and we were in darkness for a few mins, before restarting. Driver was a very nice chap and apologised as I chatted to him on escaping!

 

[Topological]

A new one on the TfW do not like direct trains from Manchester to Swansea bingo tonight. Switched from a 3-car on Platform 4 to a 2-car on Platform 0 at Cardiff. Usually they just stand around deciding which of the units on Platforms 3 and 4 will go where.

Everything seemed to be thrown by the allocated additional unit that the northbound was supposed to gain being late at Swansea (though still early enough there could be a join) Result was a very overcrowded 17:30 off Piccadilly.

Only 3 carriages on the 05:49 off Cardiff this morning too.

Presumably the 197s are still causing issues.

The boards suggested the unit I got off was going to Maesteg. No idea where the 3-car in platform 3 was going to.

 

[Jez]

A new one on the TfW do not like direct trains from Manchester to Swansea bingo tonight. Switched from a 3-car on Platform 4 to a 2-car on Platform 0 at Cardiff. Usually they just stand around deciding which of the units on Platforms 3 and 4 will go where.

Everything seemed to be thrown by the allocated additional unit that the northbound was supposed to gain being late at Swansea (though still early enough there could be a join) Result was a very overcrowded 17:30 off Piccadilly.

Only 3 carriages on the 05:49 off Cardiff this morning too.

Presumably the 197s are still causing issues.

The boards suggested the unit I got off was going to Maesteg. No idea where the 3-car in platform 3 was going to.

There seemed to be a lot of juggling of units this morning too. Ended up getting 0905 from Neath, there was an announcement just before arrival at Cardiff Central saying everyone travelling beyond Cardiff had to move to the front 3 cars. The amount of people I saw moving, some with quite a bit of luggage, suggests quite a few people make journeys beyond Cardiff on this service. But strangely the train stayed at Cardiff for quite a while and according to RTT all 5 cars did indeed go to Manchester. I was also sliightly surprised it ended up on platform 3. Manchesters almost always go from 1 or 2. It seems Cardiff CEntral platform allocations can be all over the place with 0 to 4 all being used for whatever direction of travel now.

Meanwhile, waiting for the 1010 Cheltenham service there was a last minute platform change from 2 to 1 and then when it arrived it said Maesteg on it but the screen said Cheltenham Spa. I figured it was a unit swap so we proceeded to board the train despite it still saying Maesteg. It was changed to Cheltenham just before departure.

I think there is still a shortage of 197s and therefore lots of juggling is happening to make best use of units. I notice services from Holyhead and Cheltenham now terminate in platforms 1 or 2 and go straight back out rather than go to Canton. I saw at least 1 Sprinter in the Cheltenham/Ebbw/Maesteg mix today so they are clearly short of units.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

The sooner a proper facility for maintenance of 197s is opened in the south the better. Passengers are constantly being inconvenienced with swaps at Chester and other stations because of all the failed and defective units having to be sent up there. It was always going to cause a problem trying to have 70 units based in a depot that was only used to 27.

 

[WirralLine]

The sooner a proper facility for maintenance of 197s is opened in the south the better. Passengers are constantly being inconvenienced with swaps at Chester and other stations because of all the failed and defective units having to be sent up there. It was always going to cause a problem trying to have 70 units based in a depot that was only used to 27.

I would agree there, it's particularly inconvenient if the new unit has been opened at Chester before arrival, meaning it's filled up with new passengers and those who were comfortable on the original unit now have to stand.

Are there actually any plans to open a other maintenance facility for the 197s other than Mach for the cambrian ones?

Also to note I was on one of the Cambrian 197s the other day, can't remember which one, and noticed unlike the normal ones it had quite dark tinted windows - including the cab door and side windows. Something I've not seen before. Is this the film they were talking about fitting to help manage saloon temperatures in summer or is it something specific to Cambrian units? I've not noticed it on any others, although this was the first Cambrian one I've been on.

 

[Jez]

The sooner a proper facility for maintenance of 197s is opened in the south the better. Passengers are constantly being inconvenienced with swaps at Chester and other stations because of all the failed and defective units having to be sent up there. It was always going to cause a problem trying to have 70 units based in a depot that was only used to 27.

I thought the plan was only 2 depots for 197 - Chester and Machynlleth with 56 units at Chester and 21 at Machynlleth. Unless they are going to use Canton once the 150s and 153s have gone and they are just left with FLIRTS and MK4's.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The sooner a proper facility for maintenance of 197s is opened in the south the better. Passengers are constantly being inconvenienced with swaps at Chester and other stations because of all the failed and defective units having to be sent up there. It was always going to cause a problem trying to have 70 units based in a depot that was only used to 27.

It does seem a stretch at Chester.

I realise Machynlleth will be able to do some (light) work once the 158s have gone.

I expect Canton will take on more work on 197s once the 150s have gone.
I can guess the 150s might be getting quite maintenance hungry now they are getting old.
Oh but the shiny new 197s seem a bit greedy on that one !.

After all the TAM lines will be serviced by Taffs Wells - how many 150s does that free up from Canton.

How much does Barry (depot ?) do ?.
That could be taking pressure of Canton once the 150s are gone and Flirts are fully deployed.

 

[Caaardiff]

There were 31 150s and 26 153s at their peak.
Being replace by 11 231s and 24 756s.
So 57 15x vs 35 Flirts.

Break that down by carriages it's 88 15x vs 44 231s + 89 756s, so total flirt carriages 133 vs 88 15x. In terms of workload, the actual units are less but there's more carriages which would likely mean longer work times. Also there will still be a number of to continue to maintain, the exact number I'm not sure of.

Canton has been at capacity for some time so need some breathing space to operate effectively.

The issue is currently CAF do not want maintenance outsourced to TOCs but there is a desire from TFW to at least do basic repairs to ease the pressure on Chester.
There's also the options of other Depots such as Holyhead that could be used.
Once the wheel lathe is open at Holyhead they will be able to complete full tyre turn and reentry into service exams, which currently is done by Chester once the unit has returned from the current used wheel lathe.

 

[craigybagel]

Once the wheel lathe is open at Holyhead they will be able to complete full tyre turn and reentry into service exams, which currently is done by Chester once the unit has returned from the current used wheel lathe.

And in the meantime, there's a lathe at another facility that should come online for TFW from May, which likewise will allow units back into service straight away, and not after a visit to Chester for further work.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Also to note I was on one of the Cambrian 197s the other day, can't remember which one, and noticed unlike the normal ones it had quite dark tinted windows - including the cab door and side windows. Something I've not seen before. Is this the film they were talking about fitting to help manage saloon temperatures in summer or is it something specific to Cambrian units? I've not noticed it on any others, although this was the first Cambrian one I've been on.

Specific to the Cambrian units to reduce the impact of sunlight affecting the visibility of the ERTMS screen - the class 158 cab windows are similarly tinted.

 

[Envoy]

I hope they don’t fit dark tinted film to the saloon windows as I like to see the natural colours outside. Wear sunglasses if the glare is annoying.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I hope they don’t fit dark tinted film to the saloon windows as I like to see the natural colours outside. Wear sunglasses if the glare is annoying.

A reflective film was going to be trialled to reduce the amount heat coming in from the sun and allow the AC to be more effective during the hot weather. Not sure where that is up to.

 

[Envoy]

A reflective film was going to be trialled to reduce the amount heat coming in from the sun and allow the AC to be more effective during the hot weather. Not sure where that is up to.

You would think that the Spanish would know how to make effective air-con!

 

[craigybagel]

I hope they don’t fit dark tinted film to the saloon windows as I like to see the natural colours outside. Wear sunglasses if the glare is annoying.

It's nothing to do with being "annoying"; if the sun is at the right angle and bright enough it can be difficult to make out the information shown on the ETCS screen. It's the reason why drivers (initially just Cambrian, but later extended company wide) wear black.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's nothing to do with being "annoying"; if the sun is at the right angle and bright enough it can be difficult to make out the information shown on the ETCS screen. It's the reason why drivers (initially just Cambrian, but later extended company wide) wear black.

Crumbs - wearing black on a hot sunny day is not very comfortable !.
So the reflections of light things on the ETCS screen must be quite noticeable.