Caledonian Sleeper Missing Carriage

[SickyNicky]

Last night we were sheduled to travel on the 21.15 Caledonian Sleeper from Euston to Fort William. We were in coach D, but coach D was out of service (and I can confirm that it was missing from the rake). So they moved us onto the 23.45 to Glasgow, and thence onto the 08.22 Scotrail service from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William (although they suggested we did this by changing at Dalmuir rather than walking to Queen Street, hence the timings in the email below). We are on that train now. It should arrive at 12.12. The original CS train is scheduled to arrive at 10am.

To be fair, they called us late last week to tell us this was going to happen, so it was no surprise last night. Here's the email they sent to us confirming the details of the call:

Good afternoon.

I’d like to apologise once again for the changes to your journey on the 15th of April.

As discussed on our recent call, you will now be travelling to Glasgow instead of Fort William. Your revised train will depart from London Euston at 23:45, and I have updated your booking to include lounge access ahead of departure.

You will arrive in Glasgow at 07:30, and your connecting ScotRail service will depart at 07:59. We’ve arranged for ticket acceptance on this service, so you’ll simply need to show your Caledonian Sleeper ticket to board.

As a gesture of goodwill for the inconvenience caused, we will also process a 25% refund back to the original payment card.

Please don’t hesitate to get in touch if you have any further questions or need assistance ahead of your journey.

As you can see, they've sent a 25% refund (without us asking for it). But I'm not sure this is correct, and I would welcome your thoughts on the matter. It's not like the timetable changed, it was simply that our carriage was out of service, causing us to be more than two hours late. It seems like a "slam dunk" delay repay claim to me, and likely to be more than 25%.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mike395]

Yes - you should additionally be entitled to delay compensation (their max liability is the price of the ticket so id send a polite but firm email reminding them and requesting the other 75% for a 1hr+ delay)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. As this is not a retiming of the train as a whole but rather a delay (due to refused boarding), the relevant Delay Repay is applicable and it's rather cheeky of them to imply otherwise.

If you weren't in a hurry this might have been a good change for you, though - much nicer to enjoy the scenery in daylight and from the big windows of a 156 instead of the tiny ones in the Sleeper

 

[SickyNicky]

Oh yes, this way is nicer without a doubt. Especially as I can claim back the entire (not inconsiderable) price of the ticket. I suspect they will push back, but once this train has arrived at Fort William I will fire off an email along these lines, unless anyone wishes to make any suggestions.

Dear sir/madam.

Booking Reference: XXXXX

Last night we were unable to take our booked 21.15 service to Fort William (arrival time 10.00) because coach D was out of service. As a result, we were rebooked onto the 23.45 to Glasgow, with a change to the Scotrail service train to Fort William, our actual arrival time being 12.12.

Although you have already refunded 25% of the purchase price, this delay of over two hours requires, in fact, a full refund of 100% under your delay repay scheme.

I look forward to your confirmation of this full refund.

Yours faithfully,
(etc).

 

[rocrat]

Last night we were sheduled to travel on the 21.15 Caledonian Sleeper from Euston to Fort William. We were in coach D, but coach D was out of service (and I can confirm that it was missing from the rake). So they moved us onto the 23.45 to Glasgow, and thence onto the 08.22 Scotrail service from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William (although they suggested we did this by changing at Dalmuir rather than walking to Queen Street, hence the timings in the email below). We are on that train now. It should arrive at 12.12. The original CS train is scheduled to arrive at 10am.

To be fair, they called us late last week to tell us this was going to happen, so it was no surprise last night. Here's the email they sent to us confirming the details of the call:


As you can see, they've sent a 25% refund (without us asking for it). But I'm not sure this is correct, and I would welcome your thoughts on the matter. It's not like the timetable changed, it was simply that our carriage was out of service, causing us to be more than two hours late. It seems like a "slam dunk" delay repay claim to me, and likely to be more than 25%.

Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't rely on delay repay alone, but others may disagree!

I'd ask them for a 100% refund for failing to provide a service with reasonable care and skill, in line with section 49 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

If you'd find it useful, under section 54, you might find a 'repeat performance' e.g., complimentary tickets, useful to you and something you could get them to agree to more easily than a full refund, and, given you got 25% back already, this might be more acceptable to you.

Don't forget passenger rights and obligations, which 1) would guarantee you 50% of your money back if you wished to rely on this instead (50% refund at 120 minutes) and 2) will cover any food expenses between Glasgow and Fort William. (I would also invoice them for any food you bought on the Sleeper or at Euston, though it was courteous of them to arrange lounge access for you).
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...2007-on-rail-passengers-right-and-obligations

If you really disliked how they treated you, you could well argue that not being carried in a sleeper train (particularly if cabin to standard class daytime train) is not comparable conditions, and, therefore, you would like a full refund as they failed to re-route you under comparable conditions.

Ultimately, it depends what you consider reasonable. I'd be going for the 100% refund and expenses out of principle but potentially settle for 'less,' e.g. 25% plus complimentary return in same class of accommodation. This is only because I like the Caledonian Sleeper and do at least 4 return trips a year and this may well be a "betterment" I wouldn't necessarily get in court or at the Ombudsman etc.

If it were an operator I hated or don't use often, my plan would be 100% delay repay + expenses + 'downgrade' compensation for failure to re-route in comparable conditions.

I wouldn't rely on delay repay alone, but others may disagree!

I'd ask them for a 100% refund for failing to provide a service with reasonable care and skill, in line with section 49 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

If you'd find it useful, under section 54, you might find a 'repeat performance' e.g., complimentary tickets, useful to you and something you could get them to agree to more easily than a full refund, and, given you got 25% back already, this might be more acceptable to you.

Don't forget passenger rights and obligations, which 1) would guarantee you 50% of your money back if you wished to rely on this instead (50% refund at 120 minutes) and 2) will cover any food expenses between Glasgow and Fort William. (I would also invoice them for any food you bought on the Sleeper or at Euston, though it was courteous of them to arrange lounge access for you).
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...2007-on-rail-passengers-right-and-obligations

If you really disliked how they treated you, you could well argue that not being carried in a sleeper train (particularly if cabin to standard class daytime train) is not comparable conditions, and, therefore, you would like a full refund as they failed to re-route you under comparable conditions.

Ultimately, it depends what you consider reasonable. I'd be going for the 100% refund and expenses out of principle but potentially settle for 'less,' e.g. 25% plus complimentary return in same class of accommodation. This is only because I like the Caledonian Sleeper and do at least 4 return trips a year and this may well be a "betterment" I wouldn't necessarily get in court or at the Ombudsman etc.

If it were an operator I hated or don't use often, my plan would be 100% delay repay + expenses + 'downgrade' compensation for failure to re-route in comparable conditions.

*I should add, the more complicated you make it, the less likely they are to deal with it swiftly...

I don't mind playing the long game, but others may disagree!

 

[Haywain]

Yes - you should additionally be entitled to delay compensation (their max liability is the price of the ticket so id send a polite but firm email reminding them and requesting the other 75% for a 1hr+ delay)

I wouldn't, I'd just submit a claim for the full delay. I don't think they can take a goodwill gesture into account and pay less for DR.

 

[SickyNicky]

We had lounge access anyway as we were in a club room. I'll wait for the consensus on this thread before proceeding anyway.

 

[Buzby]

My only thought is your argument is weakened slightly by them advising you of their suggested amendments before travelling. Your acceptance of this could be that the delay (for DR) is wiped out - assuming your arrival at FW is on time. If you go in hard and heavy demanding ‘rights’ this could backfire by saying your refund already concluded the matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

My view. Just do the delay repay first as suggested. And if that fails consider other options later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My only thought is your argument is weakened slightly by them advising you of their suggested amendments before travelling. Your acceptance of this could be that the delay (for DR) is wiped out - assuming your arrival at FW is on time. If you go in hard and heavy demanding ‘rights’ this could backfire by saying your refund already concluded the matter.

Can't imagine that that would stand up in Court given that no option was given to decline the refund nor to decline the rebooking. If it was sent by cheque I would indeed recommend not presenting it until agreement was reached, but you can't decline a refund like that so it would have no material effect.

 

[Hadders]

I would send the email requesting delay repay. If this doesn’t obtain a favourable outcome then go back with the consumer rights act.

 

[Haywain]

no option was given to decline the refund

It was clearly stated to be a gesture of goodwill, so I don't see how it could be considered to be a refund or delay compensation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another option here rather than another email would be to apply for Delay Repay in the usual way ignoring that payment. Assuming it isn't just done via customer services for CS?

 

[SickyNicky]

Yep. I'm going in with Delay Repay only now. I'll let you know when they reject it

Actual message sent:

Dear sir/madam.

Last night we were unable to take our booked 21.15 service to Fort William (arrival time 10.00) because coach D was out of service. As a result, we were rebooked onto the 23.45 to Glasgow, with a change to the Scotrail service train to Fort William, our actual arrival time being 12.18.

I believe this delay of over two hours requires a full refund of 100% under your delay repay scheme. However, I expect that your system won't pick it up because the 21.15 wasn't delayed, we were simply denied boarding because of the missing coach D.

I look forward to your confirmation of this full delay repay.

Yours faithfully,
etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more I think about this one the more I think it is exactly the same as being turned away from a regular day train because it's physically full due to being short formed. And that is absolutely a case for Delay Repay (despite TfW's website falsely claiming it is not).

 

[SickyNicky]

I'm surprised (and pleased) to say they didn't even put up a fight. They did deduct the 25% already refunded, but I now have a full refund of the (frankly obscene) cost of the tickets, so I'm delighted. Their staff were adament on the day that it was "not their policy" to do that, but of course "their policy" is of no interest to me.

Thanks all.

 

[Hadders]

That's a decent result. It is concerning that they auto-issue a 25% credit instead of the full value required under Delay Repay.

 

[SickyNicky]

I agree. And less informed people would have just accepted it, especially when the on the ground staff were adament about "their policy". I saw the list and there were 5 bookings in total bumped from coach D. I guess either it wasn't fully booked (even though it's school holidays) or they managed to move some of them to alternative rooms.

Credit to their comms, though. The guard on the ScotRail train and the Glasgow barrier were aware of it, and had seen some of the other pax.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm surprised (and pleased) to say they didn't even put up a fight. They did deduct the 25% already refunded, but I now have a full refund of the (frankly obscene) cost of the tickets, so I'm delighted. Their staff were adament on the day that it was "not their policy" to do that, but of course "their policy" is of no interest to me.

Thanks all.

Glad to hear the straight forward option worked.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Personally I'd consider the 25% to be compensation that you had a 156 rather than a sleeping cabin for half the journey (and scant compensation at that!) and the 100% to be the delay itself. If you'd travelled as booked and enjoyed your cabin and club car for the whole journey but incurred a 2 hour delay you'd have received the same 100% compensation.

Similarly CS once gave us a 50% goodwill gesture for our en suite shower having no water, so I don't think its unreasonable to push them for distinct additional compensation!

 

[rocrat]

Personally I'd consider the 25% to be compensation that you had a 156 rather than a sleeping cabin for half the journey (and scant compensation at that!) and the 100% to be the delay itself. If you'd travelled as booked and enjoyed your cabin and club car for the whole journey but incurred a 2 hour delay you'd gave received the same 100% compensation.

Similarly CS once gave us a 50% goodwill gesture for our en suite shower having no water, so I don't think its unreasonable to push them for distinct additional compensation!

I second this!
And I'd point to the right to be re-routed under "comparable conditions" as the basis for this.
Complimentary tickets or cabin upgrade/supplement for future journeys or something similar wouldn't be unreasonable here.

 

[SickyNicky]

Yes, I understand. In fact, I preferred the 156 to sitting in a small sleeper cabin, or the club car if we could even get in, especially as we got a table to ourselves. I'm quite content with a full refund, even if it were possible to get more.