Caledonian Sleeper

[MrEd]

And that ScotRail basically can't prosecute due to Scottish law being different, so at worst all they could do is flog Anytime Singles, or issue UFNs to anyone refusing to buy one.

That’s very true. Also, if I were a Scotrail conductor, whose main responsibility is for safety (revenue protection being a relatively low priority, contrary to popular belief) I probably would do anything I could to avoid coming into conflict with an irate passenger who’s 2 hours late, been turfed off the sleeper with not much sleep and no hot drink, and has had to stand on Perth station for almost an hour in -4 degrees...

 

[MrEd]

...and encourages them to fly next time.

I’ve used the sleeper many times since the Perth incident, so it’s not put me off. But lots of travellers will (quite rightly) not stand for being chucked off nowhere near their destination and told (effectively) to make their own way there. I can remember during the Perth incident tourists and unfamiliar travellers screaming at the remarkably disinterested staff ’how are we supposed to get from Perth to Inverness, we’re still miles away?’ Being thrown off in an unfamiliar place can be quite frightening if you’re not a frequent fail traveller/ don’t know the route. Whilst we have to accept that railway rolling stock develops faults now and again, and that occasionally trains have to be terminated short of their destinations because of this, it is down to the TOC to come up with a decent solution and to put customer care first. If CS are marketing the sleeper as a high-end service, they need to come up with appropriate solutions when things go wrong. Reputation is vital in these circumstances. A passenger with a £300 first class ticket will understandably be enraged (far more so than a passenger on a bargain berth, though it’s not right for a TOC to treat *any* paying customer in that way) at being told ’you can stand and freeze at Perth* until a bus comes sometime (we don’t know when it’ll be here)’ or ’pay some more money and make your own way to Inverness/Wick/Kyle/wherever you’re going, we don’t want to help you’. Somewhere warm to sit and guaranteed ticket acceptance in first class on the next Scotrail service with complimentary refreshments (to make up for the lost breakfast) should be the minimum (alongside delay repay), perhaps with some travel vouchers on top.

*I believe CS now have a customer lounge at Perth, so the ’freezing’ part might be history... but it doesn’t change the fact that customers paying high fares have just been ’dumped’ somewhere they don’t want to be... no disrespect to Perth, it’s a beautiful city but at 8am the CS travellers rather hoped they’d be closer to Inverness, or at least would know when they’d be getting there...

 

[williamn]

And now the troubles are in the news:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...50m-caledonian-sleeper?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[Metrailway]

The Guardian have now published an article about the problems of the new Caledonian Sleeper:

Train feels the strain: passengers slate £150m Caledonian Sleeper

Public tell of delays, power cuts and being told to take a taxi 100 miles to their destination

With luxury double rooms, en suite showers and a breakfast service which includes smoothie bowls and eggs royale, the relaunch of the renowned Caledonian Sleeper just over 100 days ago seemed to have elevated the train service to the highest standards of luxury and convenience.

But since the £150m fleet of trains was introduced in April, it has been beset with difficulties – from severe delays and botched reservations to food shortages and a broken air conditioning unit. One passenger complained of a power cut, while another one was forced to sleep with the lights on.

More than one in three of the sleeper trains heading to Edinburgh from London Euston arrived late between 25 May and 22 June, according to the latest available figures.

Other trains on the service’s Lowland route were similarly troubled, with only 71% of trains from Euston to Glasgow and 67% of trains heading back to the capital from the Scottish cities arriving on time.

[Read More...]

 

[gray1404]

The problem is that if the sleeper is candelled the passenger's are stranded, as there is only one sleeper service that day. Therefore it is arguable that Virgin had no basis to refuse to take effected passengers as a TOC in a position to help in the absence of no alternative transport arranged by CS at that point. Also, if new tickets is really required, don't the guards on the CS carry a ticket machine anyway?

Given that there was no further CS service from Preston that day to Euston and, at that point no alternative transport had been arranged by CS, was Virgin's refusal to accept passengers on their existing tickets a franchise breach?

Condition 28.2 of the NRCoT states:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

 

[w1bbl3]

Given that there was no further CS service from Preston that day to Euston and, at that point no alternative transport had been arranged by CS, was Virgin's refusal to accept passengers on their existing tickets a franchise breach?

Condition 28.2 of the NRCoT states:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

Reading the conditions around 28.2 I'd say that the text is just poor wording the intent is that the TOC for the ticket you hold should provide alternative transport and if required due to no services accommodation overnight until transport can be arranged. The breach if by any party here is CS not making arrangements for alternative transport, be it road coaches, ticket acceptance on VT or just buying a load of VT tickets. The later certainly isn't precluded by NRCoT and NRCoT doesn't include any clauses that require one TOC to solve and pay for another TOC's failure to provide service.

 

[gray1404]

I think that the wording is very clear in that it says ANY train company will, where it reasonably can... It can only say what it does say. I really do think VT breached their obligations here given there was no alternative CS service or alternative transport arranged. VT were in a position to provide alternative means of travel to Euston but refused (until they changed their mind later) which added further delay.

If anyone reading this thread was on the effected service at Preston, have you had any joy in complaining.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reading the conditions around 28.2 I'd say that the text is just poor wording the intent is that
the TOC for the ticket you hold should provide alternative transport

That is VERY clearly not the intent at all.

just buying a load of VT tickets

That said, I do think they should have done this - stood at the ticket office with the corporate credit card buying them. Or could VT refuse to sell to them, but not to passengers themselves?

 

[AndrewE]

Given that there was no further CS service from Preston that day to Euston and, at that point no alternative transport had been arranged by CS, was Virgin's refusal to accept passengers on their existing tickets a franchise breach?

Condition 28.2 of the NRCoT states:
Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

My guess is that Virgin (apparently having some problems themselves) reacted by not agreeing to accept tickets on the grounds that it wasn't reasonable, then realised that the fact that they were prepared to sell tickets at walk-up prices exposed the lie, so they reversed the decision - but not until they had milked some punters and severely pi**ed off others.

 

[bobbyrail]

Given that there was no further CS service from Preston that day to Euston and, at that point no alternative transport had been arranged by CS, was Virgin's refusal to accept passengers on their existing tickets a franchise breach?

Condition 28.2 of the NRCoT states:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

The southbound highlander was following and arrived at Preston after the lowlander was terminated, maybe Virgin thought that cs should have used that service to convey passengers even though it will probably have been nearly full. I do agree with those saying Virgin should have accepted tickets but i don't think that they were in breach of NRCoT even if it was spelt out clearly within NRCoT exactly as you interpret it.

 

[kingqueen]

My guess is that Virgin (apparently having some problems themselves) reacted by not agreeing to accept tickets on the grounds that it wasn't reasonable, then realised that the fact that they were prepared to sell tickets at walk-up prices exposed the lie

Are they actually able to refuse to sell such tickets? I mean, how could they prevent all the ticket vendors, physical and online, from buying such walk-up tickets?

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Scotrail says that the line between Ardlui and Crianlarich is supposed to reopen on 22 August. How come Caledonian Sleeper still runs to Dundee on the 25th?

 

[AndrewE]

Are they actually able to refuse to sell such tickets? I mean, how could they prevent all the ticket vendors, physical and online, from buying such walk-up tickets?

Probably not, but nobody has said they did refuse - just that they refused to allow travel on the CS tickets (for some reason not yet explained.) They then sold new walk-up tickets and / or told people to fend for themselves before realising (we're guessing now) that they couldn't claim there was no space if they were still selling tickets for the same trains.

 

[Mathew S]

Reading the conditions around 28.2 I'd say that the text is just poor wording the intent is that the TOC for the ticket you hold should provide alternative transport and if required due to no services accommodation overnight until transport can be arranged. The breach if by any party here is CS not making arrangements for alternative transport, be it road coaches, ticket acceptance on VT or just buying a load of VT tickets. The later certainly isn't precluded by NRCoT and NRCoT doesn't include any clauses that require one TOC to solve and pay for another TOC's failure to provide service.

Road transport was (albeit eventually) provided, which means that customers were provided with "alternative means of travel" as the NRCOT requires. No franchise breach by anyone.
There's a valid discussion, I think, about whether the arrangements set out in the NRCOT are adequate for the sleeper, given that a coach leaving Preston between 0800 - 0830 isn't what most people would consider an adequate substitute for a, supposedly, luxury train journey which should have already arrived in London. But, in this case, the NRCOT as it is was not breached, that much is clear.

 

[Darandio]

If they did refuse, why weren't CS staff there with their corporate credit card purchasing said tickets? That's how I believe the open access operators have done it in the past.

It seems they would rather you buy them yourself and then refund you, at least that seems to be what they were suggesting upthread. I think it's more sinister than that though, they know not everyone can do that at the drop of a hat and know people will have to use other alternatives that cost CS much, much less.

Earlier in the thread I discussed a possible trip for me and the lad later in the year on the new stock. There is absolutely zero chance of that happening now. The whole outfit is a lost mess looking for any way out possible.

 

[Darandio]

There's a valid discussion, I think, about whether the arrangements set out in the NRCOT are adequate for the sleeper, given that a coach leaving Preston between 0800 - 0830 isn't what most people would consider an adequate substitute for a, supposedly, luxury train journey which should have already arrived in London. But, in this case, the NRCOT as it is was not breached, that much is clear.

It is a valid discussion and was discussed earlier in the thread, I think it warrants a whole new thread. These were my thoughts at the time when people were being bussed up and down the country throughout the night instead of being in a luxury hotel on wheels.

This is the crux of the matter right here. Anyone buying a ticket to travel with accomodation on the Caledonian Sleeper enters into a very poor one sided contract that isn't in favour of the passenger in any way. This in itself isn't unusual of course, it's apparent in many industries.

The problem here is that Caledonian Sleeper doesn't advertise itself as a train service, it advertises itself as an overnight hotel with high class accomodation, catering and attentive service by staff, things you would associate with a similarly priced hotel. Yet when the turd hits the fan it's allowed to hide behind a poor set of terms and conditions that revert the Caledonian Sleeper back to a train service.

Analogies are crap on here and this is no better, but imagine rocking up at the Malmaison in London at 10pm and told there is no room for you and you cannot book anywhere else either. But they will provide you with a ticket to ride around London on a night bus until 6am. Like I said it's a crap analogy but arriving to travel on the Caledonian Sleeper after paying a premium and expecting to sleep in high class accomodation only to be offered a replacement bus as an alternative cannot feel much different.

 

[InOban]

Scotrail says that the line between Ardlui and Crianlarich is supposed to reopen on 22 August. How come Caledonian Sleeper still runs to Dundee on the 25th?

I suspect that they aren't confident in NR's estimate. Given the weather pattern, I don't blame them.

 

[Lozzy0603]

Is it likely these Mk5 problems will continue into the TPE fleet? Breaks, suspension, TMS, a lot of these systems have to be common despite the different internal fit out right?
Is there planned to be any common maintainance/overhaul/exams between the two Mk5 fleets?

 

[jagardner1984]

However it is done, ticket acceptance needs to be on a “yes now, accountants later” basis. As shown time and time again - the bad will caused by such incompetence (whether that is CS or Virgin, both seem hardly faultless here) is so much more damaging than a few grand of refunded tickets.

The clear intent of the NRCOT is to avoid exactly this situation.

Perhaps a body such as Transport Focus needs to have a little more clout through Resolver or similar to sanction TOCs where standards of service fall below the expected standard. i.e. Delay Repay covers a refund of the ticket price due to ... whatever.

If my broadband engineer doesn't turn up at the appointed time, I automatically receive £25 compensation ON TOP of any refund for missed service. Perhaps some token payment (charged back to the body deemed at fault) by "National Rail" would be a small acknowledgment that the experience was unacceptable (poor speed / delivery / communication relating to alternative travel). Coughing up a load of £25 payments might make TOCs give staff a little more training / authority / confidence to apply common sense and best practice of customer service in such situations. (I've no doubt the staff on the ground knew what needed to happen, but perhaps there was a delay in getting that authorised and communicated at silly o'clock).

 

[47421]

Given the hotel on wheels marketing offer passengers provided with bus or even replacement non-sleeper train are likely to have a good claim under Consumer Rights Act for failure to provide the contracted service with reasonable skill and care, giving rise to liability for consequential losses as well as full refund. The CRA is in fact intended to cover situations such as this where refund alone may well not adequately compensate for the inconvenience suffered. And small claims courts usually sympathetic to consumers. I imagine CRA claims pursued in the small claims court would be promptly settled by Caledonian Sleepers

 

[ashkeba]

It seems they would rather you buy them yourself and then refund you, at least that seems to be what they were suggesting upthread. I think it's more sinister than that though, they know not everyone can do that at the drop of a hat and know people will have to use other alternatives that cost CS much, much less.

That ain't sinister. Sinister is that CS will deny having said it and impose a cap on refunds, leaving customers to choose between spending time taking CS to court or being stuck with the bill, like at least one European train company.

 

[route:oxford]

If my broadband engineer doesn't turn up at the appointed time, I automatically receive £25 compensation ON TOP of any refund for missed service. Perhaps some token payment (charged back to the body deemed at fault) by "National Rail" would be a small acknowledgment that the experience was unacceptable (poor speed / delivery / communication relating to alternative travel). Coughing up a load of £25 payments might make TOCs give staff a little more training / authority / confidence to apply common sense and best practice of customer service in such situations. (I've no doubt the staff on the ground knew what needed to happen, but perhaps there was a delay in getting that authorised and communicated at silly o'clock).

£25! If my flight from Edinburgh to London was delayed for 3 hours, I'd be getting £560 compensation.

Surely it's time that the playing field was levelled and rail passengers were offered the same levels of compensation?

For example, if you "steal" a journey from GWR, you can expect to be fined £440. It seems only reasonable that if that a rail operator "steals" your time that's the minimum level of compensation should be paid.

 

[al78]

Hotel on wheels? I haven't experienced the new stock which admittedly looks like a hotel room from the pictures I have seen, but my experience of the sleeper is that it is, at best, a backpackers hostel on wheels as far as comfort and quality of sleep is concerned. The cheap B&Bs and hotels I have used have been far more comfortable than the sleeper. It serves a function for me of being able to get to Scotland for a full weekend of backpacking, then travel back overnight Sunday or BH Monday, in time to get to work mid-late morning. As far as the old stock is concerned, calling it a hotel on wheels is practically breaching the trade descriptions act.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Is it likely these Mk5 problems will continue into the TPE fleet? Breaks, suspension, TMS, a lot of these systems have to be common despite the different internal fit out right?
Is there planned to be any common maintainance/overhaul/exams between the two Mk5 fleets?

The biggest difference between the Mk5 sleepers and the Mk5a sets is that the Mk5a are a fixed formation barring change of Class 68 when needed, so problems with jumper cables and such like connectors should not be a problem and TMS software should be updated accordingly. Maybe part of the problem with the Mk5 sleepers is the use of that dellner coupler, unusual on LHCS. Otherwise plenty common features underframe.

Never The Twain Shall Meet.
Different TOCs, different routes, different depots, different maintenance contracts, so no. Might have the same CAF technicians in a van.

Ment to say FIRST are bad but SERCO are even worse, so keep apart, whatever.

 

[gray1404]

I really hope that the Scottish Parliament now acts to see the sleeper come back under the Scotrail franchise. Surely if a sleep was being operated by a regular train company they would be in a better position to be able to resolve problems when they occur.

 

[47271]

I really hope that the Scottish Parliament now acts to see the sleeper come back under the Scotrail franchise. Surely if a sleep was being operated by a regular train company they would be in a better position to be able to resolve problems when they occur.

Be careful what you wish for - as it stands Abellio is barely capable of running Scottish internal intercity routes never mind a long distance misfit service to London.

I'd be hard pressed to choose which is in worse shape and more chaotically managed at the moment: the sleeper or Scotrail's HST programme.

 

[6Z09]

I really hope that the Scottish Parliament now acts to see the sleeper come back under the Scotrail franchise. Surely if a sleep was being operated by a regular train company they would be in a better position to be able to resolve problems when they occur.

Given Scotrails problems over the past year I very much doubt they are the answer!

 

[gray1404]

I am surprised that the Scottish sleeper isn't part of the West Coast franchise. It will be interesting if Scotland end up with a Transport for Scotland railway in the future.

 

[Highlandspring]

It will be interesting if Scotland end up with a Transport for Scotland railway in the future.

It's just Transport Scotland - there's no 'for'.

 

[Statto]

Should never have been split from the Scotrail franchise.