Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

I thought that even in England no-one was allowed to travel out of area except for essential travel. No different in Scotland.

Only if you live in Tier 4. At other Tiers it's advisory.

UK wide travel ban!

There isn't.

 

[JonathanH]

Only if you live in Tier 4. At other Tiers it's advisory.

There isn't.

Yes, but it appears to be illegal to enter or leave Scotland as the relevant legislation remains in force (other than with a reasonable excuse or if going somewhere else).

The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Local Levels) (Scotland) Regulations 2020 (revoked)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

www.legislation.gov.uk

Restrictions on leaving Scotland
1.—(1) A person who lives in Scotland must not leave Scotland for the purpose of entering or remaining in a place within the common travel area mentioned in paragraph 4.

(2) But a person who lives in Scotland may travel through such a place in order to reach another destination.

(3) This paragraph is without prejudice to the restrictions in Part 4 of schedule 4 and Part 4 of schedule 5.

Restrictions on entering Scotland
2.—(1) A person who lives in a place within the common travel area mentioned in paragraph 4 must not enter or remain in Scotland.

(2) But a person who does not live in Scotland may travel through Scotland in order to reach a place outwith Scotland.

 

[MrEd]

Yes, but it appears to be illegal to enter or leave Scotland as the relevant legislation remains in force (other than with a reasonable excuse or if going somewhere else).

The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Local Levels) (Scotland) Regulations 2020 (revoked)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

www.legislation.gov.uk

Interesting though this debate is, it strikes me as entirely academic, given that every station that the sleeper serves in England (except Crewe and Preston) and every station that the sleeper serves in Scotland is in a tier/level 4 area- the entirety of mainland Scotland (and Skye) is now level 4. The Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland are level 3 but you cannot board a ferry to these islands unless you live there or have an essential reason for going there. So the sleeper, by default, can only be used for essential travel (there is no fixed definition of this but clearly discretionary leisure journeys are out of the question). I suspect that the sleeper is unlikely to be very busy for some time.

CS are suggesting that there is no chance of the Fort William or Aberdeen sections returning until at least February 10th, but this may be pushed back even later (perhaps even well into March/April). There will be no reason (as far as I can see) to reinstate either of these portions until leisure travel between the London area and the highlands/north of Scotland becomes viable again.

 

[Berliner]

Also, the border isn't closed to the English, it's also closed to the Scots, Welsh, Irish Brazilians, Burmese, Australians, Koreans and Absolutely anyone else who wants to cross it without a valid, essential reason.

 

[island]

Only if you live in Tier 4. At other Tiers it's advisory.

No English law prohibits travel out of tier 4, although someone travelling out of tier 4 might be in breach of the rule requiring not leaving home without reasonable excuse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No English law prohibits travel out of tier 4, although someone travelling out of tier 4 might be in breach of the rule requiring not leaving home without reasonable excuse.

I believe that is how it is being enforced by those issuing fixed penalties, i.e. a very strict interpretation of "reasonable excuse", much stricter than if you stayed within tier 4. For example if you could go to a supermarket in tier 4 but go to one in 3 that's not being seen as reasonable because you could have stayed in 4. Same with exercise etc.

A Court may well be able to overturn that, but most people will not go to a Court with it.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I would expect the train to be almost empty given that London, most of the south of England and the whole of Scotland are in tier/level 4 restrictions. Apart from some key workers needing to travel I can’t see how the service would be used by anyone in the present time. Obviously there is the issue of folk travelling to second homes illegally but I like to think that it’s been made very clear to them what the law is under tier/level 4. I also seem to remember that the BTP did some enforcement at Euston during the last full lockdown (perhaps not every night, but occasionally) to ensure that only those with a valid reason to travel on the sleeper (and other long-distance services) did so. Coming up against BTP honestly isn’t worth the risk and it’s a very irresponsible thing to do. I like to think that most folk at both ends of the route are doing the decent thing and staying at home/within a close radius of their home unless travel is essential.

Obviously it’ll be important to keep the sleeper running for those who absolutely need it- but with the restrictions, and given that it is a Sunday night before a bank holiday between Christmas and Hogmanay, I reckon you could count the number of passengers in the Inverness portion on one hand as you could in the spring lockdown when 4 per night was average (and similarly for the Edinburgh).

Maybe the odd political adviser, chief medical officer or MP will be travelling on essential business....
As you say, the number of passengers ought to be exceeded by the number of carriages, or even the number of drivers. The public might wonder why any of these overnight services should be running at all as there's a risk of staff needlessly becoming infected from each other. Maybe that's already been discussed up-thread somewhere.

 

[Essexman]

During the last lockdown it was said that several medical personnel who lived in Scotland were using the sleeper to travel to London, where they worked some days each week.

 

[MrEd]

During the last lockdown it was said that several medical personnel who lived in Scotland were using the sleeper to travel to London, where they worked some days each week.

Yes, and I believe that these medics will be the train’s most regular users for now. They’re probably the ones keeping it going. To be fair, once Parliament is in session in the New Year and MPs from the north of Scotland need to travel to sit in Parliament, this would also be an essential reason for travel (essential work which cannot be done from home)- this might be the only way for Ian Blackford etc. to travel down to London in the absence of flights.

I suppose the sleeper staff are at no greater risk than any other rail staff during the pandemic, particularly if the Lockerbie crew swap takes place to avoid the need for staff to lodge in hotels at opposite ends of the line (which would surely be closed anyway?). At the end of the day, CS have made sure that under normal circumstances there is minimal contact between passengers and staff- there are so few passengers travelling at the moment that socially distanced check-in can take place on the platform, with e-tickets shown on phones wherever possible. As there are no catering facilities, and communication with the host can be done over an intercom, the only other contact which the passengers which the host has is to deliver a wee snack box in the morning (which is placed on the floor outside the berth, and not handed to the passenger). I believe the staff stay in their own bubble in the lounge car, and only enter the sleeping cars where necessary. The Train Manager can probably stay in his office in the seated coach throughout the journey. As has been suggested before in this thread, it’s probably the best train in the UK for social distancing, both for passengers and staff.

I would venture to say that CS staff are less at risk than those of other long-distance InterCity operators who walk through open coaches as part of their duties. The UK and Scottish governments are continuing to run the sleeper as it is deemed (in its reduced form) to be an essential service- I'm fairly sure that they would happily cut it and furlough the staff until the spring if this were not the case.

 

[paul1609]

I believe that is how it is being enforced by those issuing fixed penalties, i.e. a very strict interpretation of "reasonable excuse", much stricter than if you stayed within tier 4. For example if you could go to a supermarket in tier 4 but go to one in 3 that's not being seen as reasonable because you could have stayed in 4. Same with exercise etc.

A Court may well be able to overturn that, but most people will not go to a Court with it.

I think a degree of common sense will be exercised. I live within a mile of the Kent and East Sussex Border.
Recently this has been a tier 3/2 boundary, tier 4/2 and tier 4/3 before becoming tier 4/4.
My dentist, hairdresser, petrol station, supermarket and nearest pub are all across the border.
The C class road between our village (Kent) and Peasmarsh (first in Sussex) doesn't even have County boundary signs.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I think a degree of common sense will be exercised. I live within a mile of the Kent and East Sussex Border.
Recently this has been a tier 3/2 boundary, tier 4/2 and tier 4/3 before becoming tier 4/4.
My dentist, hairdresser, petrol station, supermarket and nearest pub are all across the border.
The C class road between our village (Kent) and Peasmarsh (first in Sussex) doesn't even have County boundary signs.

I guess so, the virus doesn't recognise boundaries on a map. But in this case the train service whisks passengers and staff between places like Raigmore with an incidence rate of around 50 cases per 100,000 and Camden where there are 500 to 1000 cases per 100,000. If everyone could be super careful at all times then maybe the virus wouldn't spread but of course that's easier said than done, hence trying to minimise people travelling far.

 

[Andrew1395]

Once the pandemic is over, I wonder if the sleeper service will survive for long. On the continent TEE services are apparently revived by the contraction of discount airlines. However as principally a leisure product, i wonder how strong the resolve of government will be to keep it going.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once the pandemic is over, I wonder if the sleeper service will survive for long. On the continent TEE services are apparently revived by the contraction of discount airlines. However as principally a leisure product, i wonder how strong the resolve of government will be to keep it going.

That's a good question. The near-certain forthcoming Scottish independence would likely kill it, I reckon, as there wouldn't be MPs travelling back and forth. And HS2 will likely kill the Lowlander. It might be viable to have a simpler operation a bit more like the Cornish one, perhaps just Inverness and FW (or even Oban instead)? If primarily for leisure travellers it could run a bit later to allow an 05something arrival at Edinburgh/Glasgow for those who do need to get there then.

 

[alistairlees]

MPs don’t provide a significant amount of business, although it makes for good posts on here to keep repeating these things. There was a record amount of sales in January (it was reported in the Scottish Parliament), for travel throughout the year. Leisure travel in other words. I’m sure lots of it will come back when the pandemic is over.

 

[BRX]

It's certainly going to be interesting to see how the airlines reformulate themselves post pandemic. Travel patterns for business trips might be somewhat altered. Will that affect the economics of cheap air tickets? Who knows quite what's going to change and whether it'll be good or bad news for sleeper services.

 

[Peter0124]

Referring to what Bletchleyite said above, I reckon they should just run the Highlander come HS2/post-covid. Have it leave Euston slightly later, call at Watford Junction, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle and have the Fort William portion detach at Carstairs and run via Glasgow Central Low Level (With a 5am'ish stop to serve Glasgow) up to Fort William (No call at Motherwell). The Inverness portion should call at Edinburgh (5am'ish) and then head up north to Inverness. Have enough coaches on each portion to fit in all of the stations served by them.

The best thing they could do is run the Class 92 from Euston to Carstairs, with 73's waiting at Carstairs to attach onto the Fort William (front coaches) and Inverness (rear coaches) portions, then they go opposite ways onwards in the early morning. The Class 92 would then run empty to Polmadie shortly afterwards. Then later that night, the same 73's would then bring their assigned portions from Fort William / Inverness back to Carstairs, the coaches join and the same 92 would leave Polmadie to be attached onto the front of the full length train. The 73's would then remain in Carstairs until the next Highlander from Euston arrives and then attach onto each portion. Repeat.

This could help save costs by only having 2 trains per night instead of 4, and serving all stations on both sleeper routes apart from the Aberdeen route? Something could be worked out to allow an Aberdeen portion to run if demand for it is there (It would come from the main inverness portion)?

Not too sure if this would be an operational nightmare at Carstairs though having to deal with 73's but it would mean there's no shunting at Edinburgh as it could run via the junction at Slateford and around the Edinburgh suburban so it's facing westbound anyway at Waverley, ready to go up to Inverness. Vice versa for the Eastbound service.

Also not too certain whether my specific post would come under Speculative Ideas.

 

[Scotrail84]

Once the pandemic is over, I wonder if the sleeper service will survive for long. On the continent TEE services are apparently revived by the contraction of discount airlines. However as principally a leisure product, i wonder how strong the resolve of government will be to keep it going.

It will run until the franchise ends at least.

 

[MrEd]

That's a good question. The near-certain forthcoming Scottish independence would likely kill it, I reckon, as there wouldn't be MPs travelling back and forth. And HS2 will likely kill the Lowlander. It might be viable to have a simpler operation a bit more like the Cornish one, perhaps just Inverness and FW (or even Oban instead)? If primarily for leisure travellers it could run a bit later to allow an 05something arrival at Edinburgh/Glasgow for those who do need to get there then.

Why would independence kill demand for the sleeper, just out of interest? After all, there are sleeper services in continental Europe which cross international boundaries, and enough folk (in normal times) seem to want to use the Eurostar from London to Paris/Brussels for all sorts of business and leisure travel. I am fairly sure that whatever happens in Scotland over the next few years (which is by no means a dead certain, as a week is a long time in politics) there will still be considerable demand for cross-border travel, both essential (weddings and funerals will continue, thousands will still have family over the border, for instance) and discretionary. Scottish MPs sitting in Westminster, as has been pointed out above, are hardly a reason for keeping the sleeper going. They very rarely use it.

That said, the sleeper is not the only way of travelling to Scotland. I do worry about the sleeper’s long-term future for a number of reasons. First, in the event of independence, where would funding for the service come from, given that it is not a profitable operation? Second, regardless of independence, I continue to have my doubts as to whether the business model is sustainable in the long term- I worry that the fares are prohibitively expensive for many prospective leisure passengers (who are of course not on expenses), and that (however optimistic we are) the target market of well heeled foreign tourists is unlikely to return in large numbers for another 18 months yet. We also have to bear in mind that the facilities which attract these well heeled travellers- specifically the club car and catering offering- are unlikely to be available for some time, perhaps not even until 2022. I do think that CS need to think hard about ways to fill the trains in the summer of 2021 and beyond, as otherwise the service is going to look like a very expensive white elephant. That said, reliability and customer service have improved massively since the start of the year, and those who travelled on the sleeper during the period of Covid restrictions are (ironically) far more likely to sing its praises than those who experienced it before the pandemic hit.

Another thing- I’ve never been convinced by the idea of rerouting the West Highland sleeper to Oban. Why would Oban be preferable to Fort William? Fort William is probably, in my view, a greater tourist draw given its proximity to Ben Nevis and Glencoe, various attractions along the Great Glen and of course the Road to the Isles with the Jacobite steam train and Glenfinnan viaduct. There is also some potential business, at least, in the fact that hillwalkers, climbers and deer stalkers have a direct train to Rannoch and Corrour. Fort William is also much closer to Skye, a huge tourist destination, although most Skye bound passengers are probably just as well served by the Inverness train with its connection with the Kyle line (and for those hiring cars, it’s just as quick to drive from Inverness to the Skye bridge as from Fort William).

On balance, though, Fort William still strikes me as the more useful destination- and in the tourist season is evidently a very popular one. CS did once provide a bus link from Crianlarich to Oban (at the relatively sociable time of 07:45) for those who wanted to travel to the west coast port, although I’m not sure how well used this was.

 

[w1bbl3]

CS post pandemic will need to decide if the service is to be primarily business or (premium) leisure then tailor to offer to suit. The mk5 interior specification certainly indicates that the thinking at the time was to make the service primarily focus on premium leisure travellers with larger cabins and a hotel like service, which CS hadn't managed to deliver on pre-pandemic mostly for reasons outside of their control. The needs of the two markets are sufficiently distinct that trying to accommodate both will only lead to failure.
The benefit and USP for business travel is moving whilst you sleep, so late boarding and early disembarking are key which the current lowlander and highlander to Inverness provide.

However for premium leisure actually very late boarding and early disemarkment are not what you'd expect from a £200 room, well heeled foreign tourists are not IMHO going represent a returning market with the previous offering. The USP for the well heeled tourist is the experience of the journey, so key offerings will be early boarding, late disembarkation and restaurant quality food for dinner and breakfast just like a premium hotel. Pre-pandemic the well heeled tourists where not those turning up for breakfast at 7am (or earlier) in 4/5 star hotels but likely to start later for a far more leisurely breakfast before heading out. Dumping them on a cold platform at Glasgow, Edinburgh or Euston at 7:30am having not boarded until 10pm or later the previous night is an experience they won't forget in a bad way.

The logic of the Fort William service in the summer is slightly different and better from a leisure perspective earlier boarder and later disemarkment but not something that could sustain CS troughtout the year. Finding tourists that want to go to Fort William in December is a challenge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MPs don’t provide a significant amount of business, although it makes for good posts on here to keep repeating these things. There was a record amount of sales in January (it was reported in the Scottish Parliament), for travel throughout the year. Leisure travel in other words. I’m sure lots of it will come back when the pandemic is over.

How does that vary between the Highlander and the Lowlander? The former is very attractive in terms of the whole experience - haggis and a couple of wee drams in the lounge car before bed, a leisurely arrival through stunning scenery (I'm thinking more of to Scotland of course, but the south WCML is hardly ugly) - whereas the latter seems to involve trying to cram in enough sleep to avoid doing a daytime or evening journey that takes under 5 hours (or a flight). I can see very little attraction of the Lowlander for a tourist at all, other than the odd budget tourist who recognises that a 2+1 First Class layout seated vehicle is nicer than a road coach and a similar price.

The logic of the Fort William service in the summer is slightly different and better from a leisure perspective earlier boarder and later disemarkment but not something that could sustain CS troughtout the year. Finding tourists that want to go to Fort William in December is a challenge.

Actually, that's not entirely true. There is a considerable amount of demand to travel to that area in winter for winter mountaineering. But climbers and mountaineers are notoriously cheap, so would mostly be found in the seated coach at the current prices.

I've used it 3 times myself. 2 of the 3 were in October-November time, which might not be what you'd expect.

 

[alistairlees]

Climbers will not be paying for anything. They will be cadging lifts off other people. they are hardly the target market anyway

 

[Bald Rick]

How does that vary between the Highlander and the Lowlander?

From my experience, it was mostly tourists in the beds on the Lowlander too, with a majority of them non-British. I assume some couldn’t get on a fully booked Highlander, some wanted to start their tour of Scotland from Glasgow / Edinburgh, and some were just visiting those cities (principally the latter, one assumes).

It’s the non-British contingent I worry about: until inbound tourism gets going again the sleeper may struggle.

 

[47271]

From my experience, it was mostly tourists in the beds on the Lowlander too, with a majority of them non-British. I assume some couldn’t get on a fully booked Highlander, some wanted to start their tour of Scotland from Glasgow / Edinburgh, and some were just visiting those cities (principally the latter, one assumes).

It’s the non-British contingent I worry about: until inbound tourism gets going again the sleeper may struggle.

For sure it was foreign tourists who were keeping just about everything other than the Glasgow and Aberdeen sections fully booked until Covid hit. So, yes, CS premium business was very heavily dependent on that market.

I also know of quite a few Highlander regulars who, whilst they will continue to use the sleeper when everything opens up again, have found ways of working which don't demand weekly travel to London in the way that used to be the case.

I think that they will have a lean time for a year or so, unless they readjust their pricing away from high spending tourists and refocus marketing to play to their Covid secure strengths. This must have occurred to them...?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Why would independence kill demand for the sleeper, just out of interest? After all, there are sleeper services in continental Europe which cross international boundaries...

It's probably worth adding that overnight trains in Europe, particularly those with Sleepers in the rake, are undergoing something of a revival at the moment as people switch away from short and medium haul air travel.

 

[popeter45]

if independence happens the scottish govement would see far less need to fund the sleeper so subsidies would prob end

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also know of quite a few Highlander regulars who, whilst they will continue to use the sleeper when everything opens up again, have found ways of working which don't demand weekly travel to London in the way that used to be the case.

We talk a lot on here about the death of medium-distance London commuting - but weekly commuting, which the two Sleepers will carry a lot of due to the ability to depart late on a Sunday evening and arrive in time for workin London on the Monday (which does generally start at 9am unlike meetings), is also likely to suffer.

It's another case of everything else office-based following the IT industry, which up to about 2015 or so did a lot of weekly commuting (I did myself as a result), but has firmly moved to just travelling for key project get-togethers e.g. requirement workshops (which do work much better in person than online, though they can be done online and sometimes are) plus on-site support for the actual rollout, and the actual "grunt" work of building the solution done remotely.

It's probably worth adding that overnight trains in Europe, particularly those with Sleepers in the rake, are undergoing something of a revival at the moment as people switch away from short and medium haul air travel.

One thing I find intriguing is that when they were dying off a few years ago it was seemingly stated that the EU didn't allow subsidy of international intercity rail transport (including night trains), but all of a sudden they, er, do? The planned new operations are not likely to be profitable.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

One thing I find intriguing is that when they were dying off a few years ago it was seemingly stated that the EU didn't allow subsidy of international intercity rail transport (including night trains), but all of a sudden they, er, do? The planned new operations are not likely to be profitable.

The climate change issue is forcing a change of emphasis, but also most of the new initiatives seem to come from OBB which appears to be considering that they can be viable in themselves.

if independence happens the Scottish government would see far less need to fund the sleeper so subsidies would prob end

Would they want to make tourism and incoming business travel more difficult, though?

 

[Journeyman]

Would they want to make tourism and incoming business travel more difficult, though?

Independence will make living on one side of the border and working on the other much harder anyway.

 

[philthetube]

if independence happens the scottish govement would see far less need to fund the sleeper so subsidies would prob end

If independence comes Scotland will be unable to afford to subsidise the sleeper, especially as price of, and demand for oil is rapidly dropping

 

[paul1609]

if independence happens the scottish govement would see far less need to fund the sleeper so subsidies would prob end

Most of the incoming Long Haul tourist market to Scotland are making the visit as a secondary location to London either as part of a UK visit or European Tour.
That is a huge proportion of the sleeper passengers. If Scotland was to become independent tourism would become an absolutely vital income stream.

Independence will make living on one side of the border and working on the other much harder anyway.

Why? Assuming Scotland remains in a common travel area, there would be no difference to living in Northern Ireland and working in the Republic or vice versa.