Caledonian Sleeper

[Carntyne]

It's the staff who choose to take action.
The RMT is forcing nobody! The result of the ballot was overwhelmingly in favour of industrial action. Public opinion will admittedly not favour the staff, but the public won't be in possession of the full facts will they?

The staff (who are the RMT remember) don't seem to understand there is no money or acknowledge the significant amount of funding the EMA already has given just to keep the job going

 

[ashkeba]

All moral and ethical justification aside, the public "optics" of strikes look particularly bad in the present climate. If we here - as a group of rail enthusiasts specifically interested in the sleeper operation - have formed a generally-negative view of the strike on the basis of shaky 'facts', what hope do the general public have of viewing it favourably?

Pretty good. Rail enthusiasts have a dim view of anything which stops rail services, but the general public support key workers who kept services running during lockdown and are horrified that they are facing pay freezes which are real terms pay cuts. I suspect they are more likely to be unhappy with CS's mismanagement of it by cancelling and refunding instead of offering help.

 

[Essexman]

Industrial relations on the railways seems to be about fifty years behind most other industries.
I don't know whether that's down to unions or management but as happened in many other places, if the two sides cannot resolve disputes without impacting on customers there is a risk that the business will fold and all will be out of work.

 

[Bald Rick]

but the general public support key workers who kept services running during lockdown and are horrified that they are facing pay freezes which are real terms pay cuts.

I suspect a significant majority of the general public couldn’t care less.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It's the staff who choose to take action.
The RMT is forcing nobody! The result of the ballot was overwhelmingly in favour of industrial action. Public opinion will admittedly not favour the staff, but the public won't be in possession of the full facts will they?

It's academic whether or not the public are in possession of the full facts if they don't come back to the Sleeper. You are, of course, welcome to chase yourself out of a job in the happy knowledge "we were right all along".

 

[Journeyman]

I suspect a significant majority of the general public couldn’t care less.

I suspect when they find out what rail staff are already paid, they might actually get quite angry.

 

[JonathanH]

RTT says 66743 again to Inverness today. 66755 and 66746 appear to have been sent away to Tyne Coal Terminal on 0N14 0551 Millerhill S.S. to Tyne Coal Terminal Gbrf.

66738 still on the Fort William sleeper.

Seemingly on arrival at Newcastle, 0N14 has become 0E14 0830 Newcastle to Doncaster Roberts Rd Rp Gb, so the two locomotives are heading for Doncaster directly now. I guess that might indicate that 66755's stint on the sleeper is over.

EDIT - 66746 leading 66755 on this light engine move.

 

[williamn]

I suspect a significant majority of the general public couldn’t care less.

Most will be entirely unaware. Passengers on the CS however will likely be pissed off, I'd suggest more so with the strikers.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'm possibly in the minority here but I am both a passenger who continues to support the sleeper despite the sleepers best efforts to empty my bank account these days, a supporter of the striking Rail staff who don't deserve a pay cut because nobody does and at the same time someone who is directly affected and slightly annoyed at Caledonian sleepers cancel and refund and therefore absolve themselves of all responsibility policy. I stand to make a loss on my northbound journey for work in a couple of weeks time as a result of this cancellation, not only do I lose an evening in London that I would have spent relaxing and seeing friends whilst we can with eased restrictions but also the cost of the flight I've booked to replace it is is higher than the seated sleeper ticket that I have had cancelled.

I'm going to have to keep telling myself that whilst I'm suffering Thameslink to Luton airport and Adele evening being heard around the airport through security, possible temperature checks and whatever delays cancellations and last-minute gate alterations the combined forces of Luton airport's management and easyJet can throw at the passengers that despite the fact that I'm going to be paid an awful lot less than a member of Caledonian Sleeper staffs average monthly wage for the few days work I'm travelling for that nobody deserves a pay cut and that unless it's something really silly I always come down on the side of the staff in these disputes.

My issue is not and very likely never will be with the staff but more the operators who simply throw in the towel and stop operating in the case of Caledonian Sleeper and ScotRail on Sundays rather than attempting to help their customers who ultimately could simply choose to drive instead in the majority of cases or like me fly

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this not a bit of a storm in a teacup? The high prices CS charge surely mean a day train Advance (or a coach, if you're a seated overnight passenger and so OK with that) will likely be a fair whack cheaper?

 

[Blindtraveler]

In theory yes, but in practice because the coaches are all operating with physical distancing the yield management pricing model has gone rather haywire and and whilst I might be happy to pay 40 quid or so railcard discounted for the sleeper seats which are at least comfortable I might not look so kindly on extended journey time I'm on a far less comfortable coach


And were a a day train advance available at the time I wanted it, in other words anytime after 19 then I would have probably bought it if it was the same price or or slightly lower or higher than the sleeper.

The big selling point about the CS for me is it's timings and sadly until we get London to Edinburgh running a little bit later into the evening then it will continue to remain an attractive for me. The the evening departures from kings cross for example were significantly more expensive than the sleeper even when I booked it a month ago and and if I'm going to lose half a day somewhere along the way then I might have to arrive a little earlier and possibly incur an additional hotel stay so it's all relative. I can understand why to the outsider it might look like a storm in a teacup however but in my head which admittedly isn't particularly good at the moment it all makes sense

 

[35B]

There lies the problem , with private companies that are happy to pay shareholder dividends, but not their staff!
Your final sentence has hit the nail on the head!

I suggest you look at public sector pay settlements, and ask where the relationship is between frying pan and fire. That applies specifically to CS - where I imagine the Scottish Government have an interest - and also to train operators in general.

 

[Norther Monkey]

and and whilst I might be happy to pay 40 quid or so railcard discounted for the sleeper seats which are at least comfortable I might not look so kindly on extended journey time I'm on a far less comfortable coach

For comfort I'd take a decent coach over the current Caledonian Sleeper seats.

 

[al78]

Is this not a bit of a storm in a teacup? The high prices CS charge surely mean a day train Advance (or a coach, if you're a seated overnight passenger and so OK with that) will likely be a fair whack cheaper?

If you are lucky enough to be able to get an advance. I find they are very rare these days at least for journeys I have looked into.

The advantage of the sleeper for me is it makes a long weekend trip backpacking in Scotland feasible. Taking day trains with overnight accommodation at my destination requires adding two extra days to account for the travelling. To be honest. the price of long distance rail fares if you can't get an advance is getting to the point where if (for example) I want to backpack from Blair Atholl to Aviemore across the Forest of Atholl and Lairig Ghru (an ideal trip for using the sleeper logistically), I would seriously consider driving to Blair Atholl, leaving the car there, and getting the train from Aviemore to Blair Atholl at the end of the trip before driving home. I would rather not do that, but in the UK it seems you get financially punished for choosing to leave the car at home (i.e. the more environmentally friendly option).

 

[Bletchleyite]

For comfort I'd take a decent coach over the current Caledonian Sleeper seats.

Notably, for me at least, the coach is more appealing due to COVID, because it would be insufferably grim if sat next to someone, but with a guaranteed pair of seats it would be tolerable if not much fun.

 

[JonathanH]

Notably, for me at least, the coach is more appealing due to COVID, because it would be insufferably grim if sat next to someone, but with a guaranteed pair of seats it would be tolerable if not much fun.

Caledonian Sleeper and the coach companies are currently both operating social distancing policies in Scotland (throughout in the case of the train).

The coach companies have however removed these policies for journeys internal to England so you could well now find yourself sat next to someone for the English part of the coach journey so no guaranteed pair of seats.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Is this not a bit of a storm in a teacup? The high prices CS charge surely mean a day train Advance (or a coach, if you're a seated overnight passenger and so OK with that) will likely be a fair whack cheaper?

If you can find any advances. I spent an hour or so last night trying to find alternative tickets for my father- and mother-in-law who were booked onto the Sleeper next week. There were no through advances available. Eventually I managed to piece three split tickets together for a reasonable price, but most Caley Sleeper customers won't be doing that.

Plus, obviously, there's the fact that you basically lose a day if you're going to the Highlands.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Is this not a bit of a storm in a teacup? The high prices CS charge surely mean a day train Advance (or a coach, if you're a seated overnight passenger and so OK with that) will likely be a fair whack cheaper?

When I was living in Aberdeen and working in England the sleeper was often the only way to be at home on days off after a full working day. Without it at least half the day would be spent travelling, whether air or rail.

 

[6Z09]

I suggest you look at public sector pay settlements, and ask where the relationship is between frying pan and fire. That applies specifically to CS - where I imagine the Scottish Government have an interest - and also to train operators in general.

I suggest the actual facts of this dispute are somewhat different to the perceived view of many uninformed commentators on this forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was living in Aberdeen and working in England the sleeper was often the only way to be at home on days off after a full working day. Without it at least half the day would be spent travelling, whether air or rail.

Fair point (and that from @Doctor Fegg) but we were talking about CS sorting coaches, flights or day trains - they don't really have an option to provide an overnight train service. So that issue applies to all of them, and the discomfort issue to a coach.

 

[Journeyman]

I suggest the actual facts of this dispute are somewhat different to the perceived view of many uninformed commentators on this forum.

You keep saying that, but you won't tell us what they are.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If you can find any advances. I spent an hour or so last night trying to find alternative tickets for my father- and mother-in-law who were booked onto the Sleeper next week. There were no through advances available. Eventually I managed to piece three split tickets together for a reasonable price, but most Caley Sleeper customers won't be doing that.

Plus, obviously, there's the fact that you basically lose a day if you're going to the Highlands.

I had the same problem. Going up to Fort William next week. Only through fare offered on the day service was a 1st class advance, at double the price of the sleeper. Splitting brought the price down a bit but you still either leave Euston before 6am or arrive FW after 10pm.(there appear to be only two trains a day on the West Highland at present). So we're flying to Glasgow and getting the train from there, with an overnight stay in FW to add to the cost.

We're coming back from Inverness, which has an airport, so it's a bit easier. (and we get home nine hours earlier)

 

[paul1609]

If your flying to Glasgow depending on the timings it may be better getting the citylink bus direct from there rather than faffing around with the train, the scenery is as good and the journey times a lot quicker.

 

[al78]

If your flying to Glasgow depending on the timings it may be better getting the citylink bus direct from there rather than faffing around with the train, the scenery is as good and the journey times a lot quicker.

I have just come back from a week in Scotland and that is the route I took. Flight Gatwick to Glasgow, Citylink bus to Fort William, evening meal then taxi to Glenfinnan.

 

[35B]

I suggest the actual facts of this dispute are somewhat different to the perceived view of many uninformed commentators on this forum.

I am aware that the industrial relations issues at CS go well beyond pay, and that the dispute about pay may have been the tipping point for staff after those other issues, especially under Covid conditions.

However, I also stand by my observation that anyone working for a private sector employer who claims to prefer the prospect of their role becoming a public sector role needs to think very carefully indeed; the government is not noted for being a generous employer and is frequently more, not less, inclined to suppress wages in it's own interests rather than look to pay the going rate.

 

[Journeyman]

I am aware that the industrial relations issues at CS go well beyond pay, and that the dispute about pay may have been the tipping point for staff after those other issues, especially under Covid conditions.

However, I also stand by my observation that anyone working for a private sector employer who claims to prefer the prospect of their role becoming a public sector role needs to think very carefully indeed; the government is not noted for being a generous employer and is frequently more, not less, inclined to suppress wages in it's own interests rather than look to pay the going rate.

Exactly. It seems to me that the Sleeper's future is far from certain, and this action feels nothing short of suicidal right now.

 

[Bald Rick]

Exactly. It seems to me that the Sleeper's future is far from certain, and this action feels nothing short of suicidal right now.

Agreed.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Exactly. It seems to me that the Sleeper's future is far from certain, and this action feels nothing short of suicidal right now.

It wouldn't bother me now. For regular commuting the seated coach is too uncomfortable and the beds too expensive.

 

[Journeyman]

It wouldn't bother me now. For regular commuting the seated coach is too uncomfortable and the beds too expensive.

Personally I'd be very sad to see it go, but it has to be said it isn't exactly essential. The alternatives may be less convenient or comfortable, but there’s alternatives available for all CS routes, and if forced to use them, some of their customers may never come back.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'm rather fascinated buy all the people that feel the current seated offering on the sleeper is and comfortable. It's not perfect I Grant you but it is in my opinion which is of course objectives pretty good for what it is. The seats are large and comfortable, they can be slept in, the power supply works properly and and you have a wonderful button to press if you fancy a cup of coffee or a wee dram. My biggest criticism by far is the the fact that there's only one toilet which locks itself out of use far too frequently. But the absence of under floor noise from anywhere be at the back the front or the middle and the decent amount of luggage space offered as well as the legroom is for me anyway far superior than any coach that I could catch from Victoria or golders green or whatever. The coach is fine if you're only paying a tenner for it but what I would not pay some of the fairs being asked by the coach companies at the moment who due to physical distancing have sadly become uncompetitive price wise because of yield management.





Compare this with the previous seated offering and especially the somewhat inflexible temperature control and the selection of creeks groans and rattles generated by the elderly stock.