Calling all Southerners: What's your impressions of the North

[SS4]

What if they live in Brimingham?

Then they won't get collected. We can still put the bins out

 

[Busaholic]

I imagine the inequality in Kensington & Chelsea is significantly higher.

I think any town in the UK will have it's fair share of people who are misperceptions, lack of curiosity and limited horizons and so haven't travelled or thought about places outside their limited world view.

The Grenfell Tower fire and its aftermath absolutely exposed the inequality in K&C and showed the complete inability of the local council to comprehend the extent of the suffering and disquiet: the people caught up in it were viewed as almost another species. There is no borough in the UK with more disparity between the incomes of those in one part with the other.

 

[yorksrob]

When I were a lad, growing up in Kent, my view of the North was heavily influenced by the BBC's excellent "All Creatures Great and Small".

I'm pleased to report that whilst Leeds is very urban, once you get to the right bits of the country, "The North" is every bit as wildly wonderful as they imagine.

RIP the wonderful Robert Hardy.

 

[anti-pacer]

The Grenfell Tower fire and its aftermath absolutely exposed the inequality in K&C and showed the complete inability of the local council to comprehend the extent of the suffering and disquiet: the people caught up in it were viewed as almost another species. There is no borough in the UK with more disparity between the incomes of those in one part with the other.

I'm sorry, but ALMOST all people in Grenfell Tower were foreign, with a heavy influence on Middle Eastern people. Some it transpires were subletting to illegal immigrants!

The ambulance, fire and police treating them probably included staff who can't afford to live in London!

Sorry if this will get the backs up of the "white, middle class, let's love everybody, PC brigade", but personally I don't that is right.

Also, a lot of the so called victims are being VERY choosey about where they will be housed, despite being on housing benefits and paying nothing/very little towards their rent.

I'm sure some white, middle class, Guardian reading, sandal wearing, do gooder from the heart of the leafy Home Counties, will tell me I'm wrong though!

 

[LowLevel]

If we weren't all stupid enough as to put up artificial barriers between each other like race, nationality, religion or whatever else and recall we are all walking compounds of very similar DNA just trying to get through life as best we can, the world may well be a happier place and posts like yours wouldn't exist.

However as it does, as someone who most definitely doesn't read the Guardian or wear sandals, I shall just point out you've typed out a load of utter twaddle

 

[najaB]

I would love to know what Scots think of the North of England.

Fire away.

My opinions are largely formed from spending a fair amount of time in Blackburn. If you've been there you'd know that 4,000 holes would just be a start on improvement.

 

[anti-pacer]

If we weren't all stupid enough as to put up artificial barriers between each other like race, nationality, religion or whatever else and recall we are all walking compounds of very similar DNA just trying to get through life as best we can, the world may well be a happier place and posts like yours wouldn't exist.

However as it does, as someone who most definitely doesn't read the Guardian or wear sandals, I shall just point out you've typed out a load of utter twaddle

Your opinion, and welcome you are too it. However, if you take off your rose tinted glasses you'd see a different, much more realistic picture.

 

[anti-pacer]

My opinions are largely formed from spending a fair amount of time in Blackburn. If you've been there you'd know that 4,000 holes would just be a start on improvement.

Been there? I went to a school there, and my dad lives in nearby Darwen. It's a hovel!

 

[yorksrob]

If you've been there you'd know that 4,000 holes would just be a start on improvement.

Oh Boy !

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm sorry, but ALMOST all people in Grenfell Tower were foreign,

Evidence? I just did some Googling and could find no indication that your statement is true. The fact that there was clearly such a strong community around the tower rather suggests (but doesn't prove) that most people living there were long-standing locals. I therefore suspect you just made up that assertion? Did you?

The ambulance, fire and police treating them probably included staff who can't afford to live in London!

Sorry if this will get the backs up of the "white, middle class, let's love everybody, PC brigade", but personally I don't that is right.

1. If you are saying that it's not right that many people who work in London can't afford to live there, I doubt you'll find anyone seriously disagreeing with you, liberal or otherwise.
2. Are you trying to say there's something wrong with loving everybody? Seems an excellent thing to do to me. Far better than choosing to hate some groups of people.

Also, a lot of the so called victims are being VERY choosey about where they will be housed, despite being on housing benefits and paying nothing/very little towards their rent.

There are some reports of people refusing some offers of alternative accommodation. From what I've seen, there have frequently been fairly good reasons for that, often to do with accommodation being offered far from work/childrens' schools etc. Which is not to deny there may be some people behaving unreasonably. After all, in any sufficiently large group of people, you're going to find a few bad eggs, and people who'll try to take advantage of situations.

By the way, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing morally wrong about being on housing benefit - there are huge numbers of people who work full time who are on housing benefit because their wages are not adequate to pay for typical rents in the area. I hope you're not suggesting that those people somehow do not deserve any choice in where they live - especially after having had their flats burned down.

I'm sure some white, middle class, Guardian reading, sandal wearing, do gooder from the heart of the leafy Home Counties, will tell me I'm wrong though!

Nice to see you're not doing any silly stereotyping of people who live in the South there.

 

[Bishopstone]

When a northerner says what they think, without nuance, they are admirably plain-speaking.

A southerner doing the same is rude.

The north has a relatively good road network. Probably not appreciated, because so few have tried - by way of contrast - Worthing to Canterbury without touching the M25. Or indeed via the M25...

Independent department stores in relatively small towns, and Morrisons everywhere but hardly any Sainsburys (nose bleed alert).

Stoicism in the face of weather which is always at least one of sodden; cold and windy.

 

[GusB]

As someone who is located around the 57 degree north mark, none of you are true "Northerners". "The North" to which you refer is actually the middle bit as far as I'm concerned

 

[Cowley]

I'm sorry, but ALMOST all people in Grenfell Tower were foreign, with a heavy influence on Middle Eastern people. Some it transpires were subletting to illegal immigrants!

The ambulance, fire and police treating them probably included staff who can't afford to live in London!

Sorry if this will get the backs up of the "white, middle class, let's love everybody, PC brigade", but personally I don't that is right.

Also, a lot of the so called victims are being VERY choosey about where they will be housed, despite being on housing benefits and paying nothing/very little towards their rent.

I'm sure some white, middle class, Guardian reading, sandal wearing, do gooder from the heart of the leafy Home Counties, will tell me I'm wrong though!

To be honest AntiPacer (and I'm not one to get involved in these kind of things usually, believe me) you've shot yourself down in flames by the way you've stated this. We're living in a world at the moment that's becoming more and more polarised and yet the majority of us are probably struggling in one way or another to make ends meet.
We're all as LowLevel said - just people trying to do the best we can - and it's not always easy.

That's all I've got to say for now as I think I can smell my lentils burning downstairs.

 

[Cowley]

As someone who is located around the 57 degree north mark, none of you are true "Northerners". "The North" to which you refer is actually the middle bit as far as I'm concerned

There's a lot further north than the north isn't there Gus?

 

[roversfan2001]

My opinions are largely formed from spending a fair amount of time in Blackburn.

You poor, poor soul. I'm glad my time there is usually limited to 4 hours on every other Saturday afternoon.

 

[GusB]

I'm not a very widely-travelled person, and I could probably count on one hand how many times I've made a return journey over the Scotland/England border. One memory I do have is when I visited a friend in Birmingham one Easter weekend, and we ended up going up to Blackpool for a night out. My one enduring memory is being stuck at Wigan bus station for an hour while we waited for a passenger that got "lost" at the previous motorway service stop while National Express did a driver changeover.

As it turned out, the taxi driver who was supposed to drive said passenger to meet the coach at Wigan got his wires crossed and ferried him/her all the way to Blackpool. That was a grim hour, especially when we learned that the idiot who had behind had actually arrived long before the rest of us.

So yes, for a brief period of time it was "grim up north".

 

[DynamicSpirit]

As someone who is located around the 57 degree north mark, none of you are true "Northerners". "The North" to which you refer is actually the middle bit as far as I'm concerned

57 degrees N? Is that further North than Watford Gap? *gasp*

 

[anti-pacer]

I watch both BBC and ITV London News each evening. I'm well versed up on Grenfell Tower thank you very much, since it's mentioned every single night. Take a look at their Facebook pages and there are plenty of people who think similar. Naturally we're all racist of course for having such opinions that don't conform with the 2017 book of Political Correctness.

Pretty much everyone I have seen being interviewed as a survivor of Grenfell is of foreign descent. Meanwhile ordinary Londoners are being shipped to Birmingham and the North as London is deemed too expensive to house them.

Still, don't let me shatter your illusions of all immigrants being people we should put our arms and blankets around as being cuddly, warm and fluffy people.

For god's sake, they've even extended an amnesty against illegal immigrants in the wake of said incident.

Obviously though the local London news is wrong and your views are right. Clearly everyone in that block was locally born and sang "Lambeth Walk" each evening whilst eating pie and mash!

 

[anti-pacer]

When a northerner says what they think, without nuance, they are admirably plain-speaking.

A southerner doing the same is rude.

The north has a relatively good road network. Probably not appreciated, because so few have tried - by way of contrast - Worthing to Canterbury without touching the M25. Or indeed via the M25...

Independent department stores in relatively small towns, and Morrisons everywhere but hardly any Sainsburys (nose bleed alert).

Stoicism in the face of weather which is always at least one of sodden; cold and windy.

Well in my Northern enclave that is Wakefield we have;

1) Not one but 2 big Sainsbury's

2) Pretty low rainfall

Sorry to shatter your opinion.

By the way, have you ever tried driving to Scarborough, or between Manchester and Sheffield?

 

[krus_aragon]

As someone who is located around the 57 degree north mark, none of you are true "Northerners". "The North" to which you refer is actually the middle bit as far as I'm concerned

Well I must be in The North, because if I head due north from here in less than a mile I'll be walking into the sea! (Sure, we're in different countries, but that's a mere technicality.)

I've had a hard job convincing my wife that Derby is in the North. If it's on the same lattitude as Pwllheli, Bala and Gobowen, all of which are definitely in North Wales, then Derby must be in the North of England. Shurely?

 

[yorksrob]

1) Not one but 2 big Sainsbury's

We're quite lucky with that In Wakefield.

Leeds only seems to have those crappy little local Sainsbury's which never have what anyone wants.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I watch both BBC and ITV London News each evening. I'm well versed up on Grenfell Tower thank you very much, since it's mentioned every single night. Take a look at their Facebook pages and there are plenty of people who think similar. Naturally we're all racist of course for having such opinions that don't conform with the 2017 book of Political Correctness.

You're being silly now. I can't recall anyone on this thread saying that you are racist or being politically incorrect. If you have a point to make, you'll probably find that people will take you more seriously if you can do it without implying that other people here have said things that they actually haven't said. And if you are well-informed, you'll no doubt be aware that there is a huge amount of incorrect rubbish posted on Facebook, so the fact that some random member of the public has posted to say they think some people are foreign isn't particularly good evidence.

Pretty much everyone I have seen being interviewed as a survivor of Grenfell is of foreign descent. Meanwhile ordinary Londoners are being shipped to Birmingham and the North as London is deemed too expensive to house them.

So how do you tell whether a person being interviewed is foreign (which is what you claimed earlier)? I certainly can't tell, unless of course they explicitly say what their nationality is. Bear in mind that lots of British people in London have foreign-sounding names, or are of non-white ethnic origin, or speak with a foreign-sounding accent.

Still, don't let me shatter your illusions of all immigrants being people we should put our arms and blankets around as being cuddly, warm and fluffy people.

Please point me to the post in which I said that. (Clue: I didn't).

For god's sake, they've even extended an amnesty against illegal immigrants in the wake of said incident.

Indeed they have. There's a very good reason for that, which is that the authorities want to find out as much as they can about the causes of the fire, in order to prevent the same thing happening to other people. That means they need as many people as possible who were there to come forward and be interviewed. The amnesty makes it much more likely that anyone who has questionable immigration status will do so, since they won't be worried that their reward for giving the authorities information will be deportation (and undoubtedly there were some such individuals living in Grenfell). In the circumstances, an amnesty would seem to be a reasonable pragmatic solution, even if it's not ideal.

Or do you think it would be better to run the risk of a similar fire happening in the future, and have lots more people get killed, because the authorities weren't able to get all the information they needed about Grenfell?

Obviously though the local London news is wrong and your views are right. Clearly everyone in that block was locally born and sang "Lambeth Walk" each evening whilst eating pie and mash!

Once again, no one here has said anything like that. When you make out that other people have said things that they actually haven't said, I'm afraid you just make yourself look silly. Isn't it better to argue based on facts, and on what the people you are debating with have actually said?

 

[anti-pacer]

We're quite lucky with that In Wakefield.

Leeds only seems to have those crappy little local Sainsbury's which never have what anyone wants.

Leeds has 3 big Sainsbury's.

Colton, Moortown, and White Rose.

You're being silly now. I can't recall anyone on this thread saying that you are racist or being politically incorrect. If you have a point to make, you'll probably find that people will take you more seriously if you can do it without implying that other people here have said things that they actually haven't said. And if you are well-informed, you'll no doubt be aware that there is a huge amount of incorrect rubbish posted on Facebook, so the fact that some random member of the public has posted to say they think some people are foreign isn't particularly good evidence.



So how do you tell whether a person being interviewed is foreign (which is what you claimed earlier)? I certainly can't tell, unless of course they explicitly say what their nationality is. Bear in mind that lots of British people in London have foreign-sounding names, or are of non-white ethnic origin, or speak with a foreign-sounding accent.



Please point me to the post in which I said that. (Clue: I didn't).



Indeed they have. There's a very good reason for that, which is that the authorities want to find out as much as they can about the causes of the fire, in order to prevent the same thing happening to other people. That means they need as many people as possible who were there to come forward and be interviewed. The amnesty makes it much more likely that anyone who has questionable immigration status will do so, since they won't be worried that their reward for giving the authorities information will be deportation (and undoubtedly there were some such individuals living in Grenfell). In the circumstances, an amnesty would seem to be a reasonable pragmatic solution, even if it's not ideal.

Or do you think it would be better to run the risk of a similar fire happening in the future, and have lots more people get killed, because the authorities weren't able to get all the information they needed about Grenfell?



Once again, no one here has said anything like that. When you make out that other people have said things that they actually haven't said, I'm afraid you just make yourself look silly. Isn't it better to argue based on facts, and on what the people you are debating with have actually said?

What are the facts then?

 

[najaB]

Pretty much everyone I have seen being interviewed as a survivor of Grenfell is of foreign descent.

Foreign descent is not the same thing as foreign. My parents are from the Caribbean but I'm a UK-born citizen.

Does that make me 'un-British' in your eyes?

 

[yorksrob]

Leeds has 3 big Sainsbury's.

Colton, Moortown, and White Rose.

Which are sadly nowhere near the City centre - unlike the ones in Wakefield.

 

[anti-pacer]

Which are sadly nowhere near the City centre - unlike the ones in Wakefield.

True, but a city is much more than its centre.

We only got the second Sainsbury's in Wakefield city centre because they were the anchor tenant in Trinity Walk, although Debenhams might disagree there.

I believe the other one on Ings Road closed, but reopened after a short while as Tesco were interested in the site. Also, local people put pressure on Sainsbury's to keep it.

I actually prefer Ings Road. One, it's nearer. Two, it's less busy.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What are the facts then?

Relevant to our discussion... Lots of people were killed or made homeless. I'm not aware of any solid statistics of the nationalities of the residents/victims, but it's pretty certain that some were British, some were not British citizens but were legally resident here. And a few would have been here illegally (Presumably as a result of people illegally subletting flats, though that's a bit speculative).

I don't have any information on the proportions, and we may never know the precise numbers (because precisely who is in the flats is just something that isn't recorded). However, in general, council tenants tend to be chosen based on need (with legal requirements that exclude many foreigners from eligibility), so we can reasonably surmise that it's unlikely that the proportion of foreigners living in Grenfell Tower would have been overwhelming. The 'almost all' that you claimed seems highly improbable - there's no obvious reason to think it's true, and many reasons to think it's false. But that's also starting to get into speculation.

Many people in Grenfell have been offered replacement accommodation. In some cases people have turned this down because they believe what they have been offered is unsuitable. I don't know all the details of the reasons, but I understand there have been reports of people being offered accommodation in temporary hostels, or in locations many, many miles away. Obviously, whether refusing those is reasonable is a matter of opinion.

Getting away from the hard facts: personally I don't think the proportion of foreigners in Grenfell matters too much anyway. Losing your home to fire is a terrible thing to happen to anyone, and my own values tell me that the victims deserve just as much support whatever their nationality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had a hard job convincing my wife that Derby is in the North. If it's on the same lattitude as Pwllheli, Bala and Gobowen, all of which are definitely in North Wales, then Derby must be in the North of England. Shurely?

They're in North Wales because Wales doesn't go anywhere near as far north as England does. If Wales went all the way up to in line with Carlisle they'd be in mid or even south Wales. Derby is an odd one but I'd say north Midlands.

 

[AM9]

They're in North Wales because Wales doesn't go anywhere near as far north as England does. If Wales went all the way up to in line with Carlisle they'd be in mid or even south Wales. Derby is an odd one but I'd say north Midlands.

This 'where the north starts' is so devisive. If the dividing line is to halve the population of England and Wales, or even just England, there would be a greater land area north of the line than south of it. As a consequence, the northern scenery has a much more rural flavour (between the urban concentrations of the old industrial towns). Each of those towns/cities are far smaller than the conurbation that is London, so access to open country is much easier there. Thus there are plenty of very pleasant places in the north, both rural and urban, but the necessity of servicing the concentration of London and it's giant hinterland must look to an outside observer like all the investment goes down south.
London's leafy suburbs and much of the home counties commuter belt is rather boring in many respects as local roadbuilders and housebuilders in seek of their cut of high salaries just put more and more of what is natural under a concrete pastiche of rural/county lifestyle that most residents see very little of in their commuting lives. From my own observations, areas south of Manchester seem to be creeping along the same path. North-east Cheshire is beginning to look as twee as much of Surrey.

 

[krus_aragon]

They're in North Wales because Wales doesn't go anywhere near as far north as England does. If Wales went all the way up to in line with Carlisle they'd be in mid or even south Wales. Derby is an odd one but I'd say north Midlands.

Oh, I agree that making such comparisons is not really accurate. It does, however, reflect my instinctive view on which bits of England are "North", which is to relate it to the place i live. Much like GusB does.