Calls for an express train service from Portsmouth to London

[infobleep]

I guess metro services would be diverted into cross rail 2 tunnels.

However that would not resolve congestion issues at Surbiton itself I wouldn't have thought. For example in the morning peak no semi fast services run from Woking stopping at Surbiton. There is a stopping service from Basingstoke but it waits for about 6 minutes at either West Byfleet or Byfleet and New Haw

Between 6.41pm and 8pm no services run from Surbiton to Basingstoke. After that it's 2 an hour again. Alton line has an even longer gap between services from Surbiton in the evening.

I'm not saying they can make things perfect. Just highlighting existing issues.

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[jopsuk]

if the Mole Valley/Chesington lines went into a (crossrail 2) tunnel at Raynes park rather than merging onto the Mainline, then you'd have more capacity on that four track section and hence could run more trains through Surbiton

Obviously in crazy-world you'd get ALL the "red train" (Metro) services off the SWML completely, promoting Surbiton to a major interchange at which all "blue train" (outer suburban) services would stop.

 

[30907]

You really do have to wonder how the LSWR managed to have the money for flyovers at the majority of their main junctions, yet in modern times with far more income to the railway and trains operating the number of flyovers built since 1948 to date on the whole of the former Southern network is - well, I can't think of any offhand.

Selhurst triangle (technically a replacement), Shortlands Junction, St John's, the Eurostar curve by Stewart's Lane. The missing one is Woking, of course, which is still needed.
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With 6 services an hour to Portsmouth, how did they fit in goods services?

They didn't - even on weekdays the Portsmouth Direct had very little freight, and on Summer Saturdays on the SR goods traffic simply had to wait.

 

[Carlisle]

The whole set up of the LSWR was completely different then, because the Portsmouth direct was a relatively early phase of electrification, and that effectively gave that route a massive head start on the idea of high frequencies and long distance commuting.

As most know, the other main route, to Bournemouth wasn't electrified until the 60s and Weymouth not until the late 80s. I think it would be very unwise to think that something like the 1938 situation could run today...

I agree as you say it's busier around the London area approach to Waterloo for the reasons you explain ,but would that not have been partially offset by the many more services than today to all those long closed branches and stations on the far more comprehensive Exeter route and beyond ,especially during the summer holiday season

 

[Taunton]

Selhurst triangle (technically a replacement), Shortlands Junction, St John's, the Eurostar curve by Stewart's Lane. The missing one is Woking, of course, which is still needed.

Unfortunately none of these are good examples.

Selhurst, as you say, was just a revision of what was previously there rather than a new installation.

Shortlands and Stewarts Lane were both for Eurostar's limited period at Waterloo; Shortlands would never be justified on current traffic grounds, and Stewarts Lane, more a curve rather than a flying junction, is now I believe abandoned.

St Johns changes in recent times are just additional ramps up to an existing bridge, which I believe dates back to the 1930s (and was destroyed in the 1957 accident and replaced afterwards).

I think the one coming (not there yet) east of London Bridge to allow Thameslink to cross under the Charing Cross lines will be the first proper separated junction built for Southern traffic since before WW2.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the one coming (not there yet) east of London Bridge to allow Thameslink to cross under the Charing Cross lines will be the first proper separated junction built for Southern traffic since before WW2.

There's a nice flyover junction at New Cross Gate built only a few years ago. Southern (the TOC) traffic only goes under it, but you could consider the LO ELL service as predominantly running 'on the Southern' anyway...

 

[Matt Taylor]

Here we go again:

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/traffic-travel/mps-and-business-leaders-call-for-better-rail-links-between-portsmouth-and-london-1-6040295


Having looked at the point to point timings 91 minutes is just about the best you can get from the current stock/infrastructure between Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo-but punctuality would suffer if too much redundancy is removed. To achieve any significant improvement would require removal of stops at Petersfield, Haslemere and at least one other.The speed limit through Buriton tunnel would require raising from its current 40mph and a flying junction would be required at Woking. For further improvements of any significance nothing less that tilting trains would be the answer.

 

[infobleep]

Have trains always been 40mph in Buriton tunnel? As for quicker journey times. Between Portsmouth and Guildford at least that use to be over 50 years ago. However they achieved this by stopping at less stations. I don't think Haslemere and Petersfield passengers would be happy.

It does show how the infrastructure and modern trains hasn't brought about much journey time improvements. It is has brought though is more reliable trains and more often train services across the day.

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[Carlisle]

Buriton tunnel has been explained on here before by people far better qualified than me ,but briefly I believe it was 70 and was cut to 40 .The track is curved and with the class 444 coaches being longer than the old slam door stock a risk of swiping the side on an oncoming unit on the curve may occur at higher speeds due to extra air pressure etc ,I think it needs widening to increase speeds

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for that. Fascinating. Just goes to show, new doesn't always mean faster. Not that they would want to advertise the fact.

Saying that. Would it be possible to base the speed on length of train. A 4 coach desiro train can't be longer than a full length slam door train. Actually ignore that. It's per coach isn't it that they are longer.

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[455driver]

Buriton tunnel has been explained on here before by people far better qualified than me ,but briefly I believe it was 70 and was cut to 40 .The track is curved and with the class 444 coaches being longer than the old slam door stock a risk of swiping the side on an oncoming unit on the curve may occur at higher speeds due to extra air pressure etc ,I think it needs widening to increase speeds

It was actually the 442s (at 23m long per coach) which were restricted to 40 through there first but your point still stands.

Then when the Desiros came along it was decided to restrict all trains because of the risks of a driver mistaking the 444 he was driving for a 450 (same cab) or driving from a 450 but having a 444 on the back etc and doing 70 through there.

 

[Waldgrun]

One of the main factors against a faster journey times on the Portsmouth direct route, hasn't been mentioned yet..(I think!) Its steep gradients and tight curves! I have heard two reasons for this,

1).This line was not built by any railway company but by a speculating contractor, who aimed to sell the line to one of three railway companies that ran to Guildford ( L&SWR, LBSCR and SER), so he cut corners to increase his profits!
2). It was intended to use an atmospheric traction system, which could cope with the gradients and curves, but not rats as Mr Brunel found out!

Also, now days the removal of passing places will not help any service improvements. In the pass the first place to pass was at Havant, which had up & down through roads, which allowed non stop services to over take stopping ones. Havant has been remodelled with 2 bidirectional roads, but I feel the volume of traffic here would make passing trains very difficult!

Petersfield used to have a island platform with loop on the up road, now a car park. It is of interest to note that Petersfield is roughly halfway between Guildford and Portsmouth

Haslemere still has a island platform with loop on the up road,and is bidirectionally signalled, and is roughly halfway between Waterloo and Portsmouth.

One other thing is the lack of a flying junction at Woking, I believe that land in the V formed by the two route was purchased to allow it to be built, but was sold off, and a check on Google Earth shows a housing estate!

So I feel that the service on the Portsmouth Direct is as good as it is ever likely to be! However that will not stop local politicians, trying to convince the electorate of their intent!

 

[infobleep]

Well they just need to spend billions on it. I'm sure the local politician will approve such a thing. Lol.

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[bigdelboy]

I haven't looked at the previous threads )or even all of this one) .. so i may have some repetition.

[1] Its not just Buriton tunnel itself, the speed restrictions for quite a bit south of the tunnel (e.g. a mile or two) I suspect (and this is only a feeling) may be somewhat less than they used to.

[2] The BEPs/CEPs/CIGs on the old 1815 waterloo to fratton used to managed 95mph speedo clock speed into rowlands castle, so the curves aint really that bad.

[3] Though I think the speed through rowlands castle might be raised.

[4] A flyover at woking northbound would be good. It's about the only place that doesn't have a flyover on the main line out of waterloo to basingstoke.

[5] The track layout at haslemere means that a down train terminating there to go backup towards london cannot use the loop platform 3 without shunting; so will use platform 2. That means an overtaking/passing though train has to use platform 3 which is more speed restricted (even if stopping) rather than hurtling through on plaform 2..

[6] The alternative guildford effingham Jn. Surbiton route probably has a lower linespeed that the fundamentals of the line curvature dictate; that said pathing could be a problem.

[7] Pp 80-83 http://www.railperf.org.uk/members/milepost/MILEPOST%20241.pdf shows some train times for the Portsmouth direct over the years .... A schools 4-4-0 with 11 coaches taking 85 min from portsmouth and southsea to waterloo.

[8] Havant can be a real pinch point for southbound trains, waits of 3/4/5 minutes are not uncommon.

[9] The desiros do accelerate better than the old stock (though 4rep+4tc might have come close on southampton diversions). Especially true up the slopes, though slippery conditions can be problematic.

[10] Some of the infrastructure/stock decisions do no necessarily help the speed situation ... the lengthy door open/shut sequence of the desiros :cry: and speed restrictions around Buriton The lack of a Passing loops at petersfield and the removal of through tracks havant (this removes a speed restriction .. great) but limits options (e.g as a temporary siding) when things go wrong/different.

[11] The fastest thing up is probably the ecs voyager for the 06:02 newcastle from guildford ... frustratingly from a passenger point of view the thing doesn't stop anywhere!

[12] There has been a tendency to increase journey times so performance targets can be met. And the journey times on this route and others have increased since privatisation. Often this means an on time arrival is more predicatable and certain; bu one cannot help but feel here is slippage.
( If I come across an old timetable i'd be interested to look at the values ).

 

[Chris125]

[4] A flyover at woking northbound would be good. It's about the only place that doesn't have a flyover on the main line out of waterloo to basingstoke.

That's beginning to look a real possibility - £300m Waterloo station revamp coming out to bid

On top of the £300m to increase capacity at and into Waterloo, it's possible a further £100m could be spent on a grade separation scheme at Woking.

Chris

 

[infobleep]

That's beginning to look a real possibility - £300m Waterloo station revamp coming out to bid

On top of the £300m to increase capacity at and into Waterloo, it's possible a further £100m could be spent on a grade separation scheme at Woking.

Chris

That's great news if those things happen. It's one of the busiest lines in the country and has some of the highest passenger figures I believe. If trains could stop at Clapham Junction more, it would introduce a whole range of new travel opportunities.

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[paul1609]

You realise how slow the Waterloo has become when you look at Southerns 15.02 which gets to Portsmouth and Southsea in 1 hr 56, reroute via the Quarry Lines and drop the Redhill and Horley stop (-6 mins) end portion working at Horsham (-3 mins) better pathing at Arundel junction and dropping the Barnham stop (-4 mins) gives you 1 hr 42.
I reckon a headline service dropping under 1 hr 40 is possible utilising existing infrastructure. Given the huge fare differential the Waterloo service could be dead in the water given the will.

 

[455driver]

You realise how slow the Waterloo has become when you look at Southerns 15.02 which gets to Portsmouth and Southsea in 1 hr 56, reroute via the Quarry Lines and drop the Redhill and Horley stop (-6 mins) end portion working at Horsham (-3 mins) better pathing at Arundel junction and dropping the Barnham stop (-4 mins) gives you 1 hr 42.
I reckon a headline service dropping under 1 hr 40 is possible utilising existing infrastructure. Given the huge fare differential the Waterloo service could be dead in the water given the will.

So what are the Redhill and Horley passengers going to do then?

It might come as a bit of a surprise but not everyone (well hardly anyone actually) wants to go from end to end, 95% of the passengers will board or alight at intermediate stations.

All this talk of express, non stop trains not calling at intermediate stations misses the point of the railways these days, mass transportation and maximum journey opportunities!

 

[TEW]

Using the limited capacity on the Southern route to run express services to Portsmouth would be particularly wasteful as that's not the purpose of the line at all. Southern offer a cheap alternative for Portsmouth passengers but their services aren't designed to cater for the Portsmouth-London market, it's the Portsmouth-Gatwick Airport market, the Chichester-London market etc that they serve. If you try to run fast services via that route then you'll lose the real purpose of the route.

 

[infobleep]

So what are the Redhill and Horley passengers going to do then?

It might come as a bit of a surprise but not everyone (well hardly anyone actually) wants to go from end to end, 95% of the passengers will board or alight at intermediate stations.

All this talk of express, non stop trains not calling at intermediate stations misses the point of the railways these days, mass transportation and maximum journey opportunities!

This is very noticeable when due to late running, a train company cancels all intermediate stops. The only train company I've seen do this is London Midland. The train left practically if not totally empty. Normally, being 9.05 on a week day morning out of Euston, the train would have a reasonable number of people.

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