Camberley residents would like faster services to Waterloo

[infobleep]

Get Surrey features a report on Camberley residents wanting faster services to London. Would it be possible to amend existing timetables to allow this without adversely affecting existing more popular services? I suspect not.

Nearly 1,500 signatures have already been gained on a petition calling for the faster London Waterloo services

Members of*The Camberley Society*have called for people to "get angry" about train journey times into London as they prepare to hold a public meeting on Friday evening.

The society has invited residents to Camberley Theatre at 7pm to hear*about its campaign to cut rail travel times*betweenCamberley*and Waterloo down to 50 minutes.

Its chairman, David Powell said it was ‘absurd’ that the journey currently takes around 75 minutes, and in most cases requires at least one change.

The society has lodged an*e-petition with the Government*, which now has almost 1,500 signatures.

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/public-meeting-over-50-minute-train-8734712

The e-Petition can be viewed at
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/68458

 

[JamesRowden]

The Wessex Route Study Draft suggests a 2tph off-peak service via Camberley to Waterloo within the end CP5 capability. I estimate that the journey time would be 68 minutes. I have attached a diagram of the proposed service pattern to this post.

 

[NLC1072]

To be fair I've always thought they get a rather raw deal in that area, anywhere else with that sort of population in that closer proximity to London would get all round direct services, it's just that Waterloo and the surrounding area is already too congested to get more paths in.

 

[yorksrob]

Were the South Western mainline not so full, it might have been a case for reinstating the Frimley East curve.

 

[infobleep]

To be fair I've always thought they get a rather raw deal in that area, anywhere else with that sort of population in that closer proximity to London would get all round direct services, it's just that Waterloo and the surrounding area is already too congested to get more paths in.

I agree it is very congested. North of Surbiton, metro services use the fast lines during peak rush hour. People don't always realise this. This is all the stopping services between Woking and Surbiton, which would outside of peak use the slow lines north of Surbiton and two stopping services between Guildford and Surbiton, in addition to all the fast services.

I don't know what it's like on the Windsor lines but I imagine very busy too. So I can't see it happening unless they can find away of removing other services from existing me tables or the infrastructure improves. Can't see the latter happening in the short term at least.

 

[swt_passenger]

Were the South Western mainline not so full, it might have been a case for reinstating the Frimley East curve.

If you read the whole of the linked article, that's basically what they are asking for, and it is a regularly repeated request.

But they're really flogging a dead horse, because they'd need a grade separated junction that cannot be fitted in without extra land take. A flat junction in the down direction would be impossible.

 

[3141]

When I lived in Camberley over 45 years ago there were direct trains to Waterloo, but they still took a long time via Ascot and Staines. The builders of the railways in the area failed to realise what the demands of residents today were going to be. As stated by swt-passenger, to reinstate the Frimley East Curve would require a grade-separated junction, because a flat junction would reduce the capacity of the South West Main Line at that point, an impossible situation if the purpose of rebuilding the junction was to bring in additional services. But it would be an expensive project, and the benefits - other than for the residents of Frimley and Camberley - would be nowhere near those that might be achieved by spending the money on other schemes.

 

[Ironside]

I can see why camberley rail users would like an improvement in service. Since the limitation is capacity closer to London I would like to ask if Crossrail 2 would or could generate create that capacity?

 

[Via Bank]

I can see why camberley rail users would like an improvement in service. Since the limitation is capacity closer to London I would like to ask if Crossrail 2 would or could generate create that capacity?

It's only one element of the puzzle. Another concern is the fact that, were the Sturt Road chord to be reinstated (presumably grade-separated), it would create train movements from the Camberley line which would conflict with the existing SWML and West of England services. So realistically it's not going to happen until that stretch of line is re-signalled, presumably under ETCS.

There are also other concerns. Reinstating Sturt Road would require significant land take. The platforms at Frimley, Camberley and Bagshot should probably be extended to eight- or ten-car length at the very least to accommodate this hypothetical direct London service, and this is going to be difficult at Camberley where there's a level crossing on one side and a viaduct on the other. More stock of the correct length would be needed (a follow-on Desiro City order, maybe, or whatever eventually ends up replacing the 455/456s.)

It's a lot of work, and a lot of money, for relatively small gain, so it's quite low down on the priority list. For now, I think more effort should be put into improving connection times at Ash Vale.

 

[The Ham]

An east facing grade separated junction is a non starter. Camberley AND Frimley have a total of less than 750,000 passengers (Hook has more) and even allowing for the increase in passengers from having a direct service to London it's unlikely to be much higher.

Frimley and Camberley could see some journey time improvements to London by changing at Farnborough if a west facing junction (grade separated) was built. However it would provide better connections with other local towns (possible new service running between Basingstoke and Ascot).

It would also benefit the proposed 5,000 houses being proposed at Winchfield who would bring more new passengers to the network than the service to London from Camberley would (i.e. a lot of people who would use the service currently drive to nearby stations) and the developer could foot some of the bill for building the junction.

The other, side, benefit is that it would be possible to dirvert some trains around Woking during weekend engineering works. As well as ensuring that there is at least some level of service should there be a problem with services beyond the local area. If nothing else, this would benefit the large numbers of students who travel to Farnborough and Basingstoke from the local areas for college.

Although none of the settlements in the Blackwater Valley is very large, combined the population is reasonablely significant (250,000, slightly smaller than Plymouth and slightly bigger than Milton Keynes). Which given it has four different lines crossing it could mean that such a junction could be the first step in developing a metro system for the area.

Pretty much the only way for Camberley to get a direct service is to extend the stopper to Woking or splitting the Alton or Basingstoke semi fast services. Either way it's unlikely to bring the time savings expected which are based on running fast (at least from Woking).

Even post Crossrail 2 there will be enough demand from existing services to rule out any fast service serving such a small area, whilst Farnborough is likely to be fairly high up the list of places who will see more than one extra train per hour calling there.

 

[JamesRowden]

Perhaps 'Option 5', that I attached to my previous post, could be modified to provide a 2tph service that only stops at Staines between Ascot and Clapham Junction, formed of 1tph to/from Reading and 1tph to/from Aldershot. The stations directly east of Ascot would still get 4tph. This could produce journey times similar to that which the people of Camberley want and it would benefit London journey times to/from Ascot, Bracknell and Wokingham aswell. I think that the fast services would run via Richmond to pass the 2tph slower (via Ascot) services that run via Hounslow.

 

[The Ham]

I forgot to say that with journey times of 34 and 38 minutes from Farnborough to London, a journey time of less than 55 minutes should be possible (10 minutes from Camberley to Farnborough and 7 or 11 minutes to change).

Even if the change was to the slower services from Farnborough, journey times would still be about 65 minutes.
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To be fair I've always thought they get a rather raw deal in that area, anywhere else with that sort of population in that closer proximity to London would get all round direct services, it's just that Waterloo and the surrounding area is already too congested to get more paths in.

A lot of people travel to nearby stations (Farnborough Main has a bus service from Frimley and Camberley which runs every 10 minutes) where there are fast services to London. Even with the new service achieving 50 minutes on a 2tph frequency chances are for most people it would still be better to go to Farnborough as they would have the choice of 4tph so more often than not would have a faster journey if you include waiting for the next train.

 

[embers25]

One step in the right direction would be to provide much better connections at Ash Vale, as stated earlier, as the waits are far to long. Maybe they could split a peak train at Ash Vale with the back four going to Ascot?

 

[phil281]

Could you not split the Windsor trains at Staines? They are never particually busy beyond Staines.

If one portion is late returning, the portion that is on time can go on time short formed and the late part goes into the sidings to await the return journey.

Unit wise, you could use 455 + 455 + 456, one 455 going on to Guildford and the 6 car going to Windsor (so Windsor does not get a massive decrease in capacity. The displaced 458/5's could then go on to Kingston Loop/Shepperton diagrams which I think are seperate from the other suburban diagrams. I think there should be enough units to do this once all the 456's are refurbed.

 

[infobleep]

One step in the right direction would be to provide much better connections at Ash Vale, as stated earlier, as the waits are far to long. Maybe they could split a peak train at Ash Vale with the back four going to Ascot?

Is there enough passenger numbers to justify better connection times at Ash Vale? Would it be possible to shift other trains to do this with affecting other connection times and trains elsewhere?

 

[hassaanhc]

Could you not split the Windsor trains at Staines? They are never particually busy beyond Staines.

If one portion is late returning, the portion that is on time can go on time short formed and the late part goes into the sidings to await the return journey.

Unit wise, you could use 455 + 455 + 456, one 455 going on to Guildford and the 6 car going to Windsor (so Windsor does not get a massive decrease in capacity. The displaced 458/5's could then go on to Kingston Loop/Shepperton diagrams which I think are seperate from the other suburban diagrams. I think there should be enough units to do this once all the 456's are refurbed.

Feltham can't fit more than 8 coaches, and as the 455 and 456 don't have SDO, your plan cannot work. And in the inevitable event of all 10 ending up on the Windsor branch, same 8 car limit applies to Wraysbury, Sunnymeads and Datchet.

 

[infobleep]

Feltham can't fit more than 8 coaches, and as the 455 and 456 don't have SDO, your plan cannot work. And in the inevitable event of all 10 ending up on the Windsor branch, same 8 car limit applies to Wraysbury, Sunnymeads and Datchet.

Could SDO be fitted in to them? I mean they have been doing work to convert other rolling stock recently. The 458 to 458/5.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could SDO be fitted in to them? I mean they have been doing work to convert other rolling stock recently. The 458 to 458/5.

455/456? NR have said explicitly that it is not possible to retrofit SDO to 455/456, and used that point to justify extending all the platforms they normally use (i.e. on the main suburban side) to 10 car, with no exceptions.

 

[FenMan]

I lived in Camberley when the service to Waterloo was 4tph:

• 2 directs via Ascot. Fastest journey time 58 minutes.
• 2 via a change at Ash Vale. IIRC correctly, the wait was only 5 minutes and the total journey time was 1h02m.

Those were the days!

I moved away from the town 10 years ago - one of the factors being the dismal rail service - and now live a short walk from Blackwater station. I've never been a regular London commuter, but Reading and Guildford are now far more accessible, while the journey times to London (mainly via Guildford or Reading, but there are alternatives) are reasonable. And I don't have to factor into the equation the extortionate parking charges at Farnborough Main.

Many London commuters in east Camberley use Woking station and from west Camberley use Farnborough Main. That said, the main commuting flow from the town is by car to Heathrow Airport.

Given that SWT shuts the Ascot branch at the first sign of bad weather, my suspicion is that they'd far rather close it completely in favour of their shiney Gold bus services.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I lived in Camberley when the service to Waterloo was 4tph:

• 2 directs via Ascot. Fastest journey time 58 minutes.
• 2 via a change at Ash Vale. IIRC correctly, the wait was only 5 minutes and the total journey time was 1h02m.

Those were the days!

You beat me to it! When James in post #2 suggested a 68 minute timing might be possible I checked the current TT and was surprised to find that even through trains in the morning take 72 minutes. In 1985 there were through trains taking 57 mins and the off-peak time via the conection at Ascot was 58 mins. In 1988 there was an odd service with three trains on the Reading line: two were through trains and the other was a Guildford - Reading via Ascot and Aldershot, connecting with a through train from the Camberley line in the opposite direction at Ascot. So, at this time Camberley had one through and one change, with journey times still below an hour.

I presume a lot of this quarter of an hour increase has to do with TT performance allowances and the slower station stops for sliding-door trains.

 

[JonathanH]

You beat me to it! When James in post #2 suggested a 68 minute timing might be possible I checked the current TT and was surprised to find that even through trains in the morning take 72 minutes. In 1985 there were through trains taking 57 mins and the off-peak time via the conection at Ascot was 58 mins. In 1988 there was an odd service with three trains on the Reading line: two were through trains and the other was a Guildford - Reading via Ascot and Aldershot, connecting with a through train from the Camberley line in the opposite direction at Ascot. So, at this time Camberley had one through and one change, with journey times still below an hour.

I presume a lot of this quarter of an hour increase has to do with TT performance allowances and the slower station stops for sliding-door trains.

Also, more stopping trains in the suburban area - basically there is more focus on serving the inner areas properly these days than there was in 1985.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I lived in Camberley when the service to Waterloo was 4tph:

• 2 directs via Ascot. Fastest journey time 58 minutes.
• 2 via a change at Ash Vale. IIRC correctly, the wait was only 5 minutes and the total journey time was 1h02m.

Those were the days!

I moved away from the town 10 years ago - one of the factors being the dismal rail service - and now live a short walk from Blackwater station. I've never been a regular London commuter, but Reading and Guildford are now far more accessible, while the journey times to London (mainly via Guildford or Reading, but there are alternatives) are reasonable. And I don't have to factor into the equation the extortionate parking charges at Farnborough Main.

Many London commuters in east Camberley use Woking station and from west Camberley use Farnborough Main. That said, the main commuting flow from the town is by car to Heathrow Airport.

Given that SWT shuts the Ascot branch at the first sign of bad weather, my suspicion is that they'd far rather close it completely in favour of their shiney Gold bus services.

You don't know how much we wish they would, the line is a pain in the backside and the amount of trouble makers on there with drink & drugs is high, its closure would rid us of all of those.