Cambridge guided busway

[Deerfold]

The downside to guided bus ways....Luton:

Bit off topic but...

Idiots manage to drive onto railway lines too...

 

[181]

On my one experience of the busway (one return journey about a year ago), I was struck by a couple of things:

1) The service seemed to stop very early on Sundays -- the last bus from Oakington to Cambridge was at about 17.00, and I don't think it went on much later in the opposite direction either.

2) I'm not sure what the point is of leather seats (the general ambience seemed much like any other bus, not at all luxurious), but the buses lacked a much more useful feature, namely an indication of what the next stop was (as is common practice on the Continent). A straight or gently curving busway in a flat fenland landscape doesn't have many features to help you spot where you are.

 

[gingerheid]

Stagecoach don't seem to be trying very hard with the Sunday or evening services on the northern guideway; even though the services are very limited they are always very busy. The weekday evening services are always busy, and the first last buses on Sundays are always hideously overcrowded, suggesting that they could successfully run more frequently, and on Sundays earlier and later.

The southern guideway still doesn't have a Sunday service at all, and even during the week the buses finish at around 8pm.

Even someone that hates the idea of guideways as much as me has to admit that in terms of passenger perception and usage the northern guideway shows many signs of success, and of even greater success being restricted by unambitious service levels.

However given the current service provision it is difficult to see a reason for the southern guideway's existence. A bus route apparently capable of sustaining only 4 buses per hour Monday to Saturday daytimes doesn't seem to be one that needs expensive infrastructure provision. Further, the only part of the service those 4 buses an hour provide that forms the sensible way of making a journey is the link between Addenbrooke's and Trumpington that used to be provided by one minibus. The busway isn't the best way of getting from the city to Addenbrooke's because there are too few buses and more buses leave from different bus stops, and it's not the best way of getting to Trumpington as the tour of Addenbrooke's makes it far too slow. The only part of the service that serves a sensible purpose is the link between Trumpington and Addenbrooke's.

If only the southern guideway were able to take double decker buses it wouldn't need to be this way. With this capacity it would be the ideal fast and congestion free route for 12 park and ride buses an hour (to Babraham and Trumpington) and, even assuming no increase in passenger numbers as a result of the improved journey, 5 buses an hour to Haverhill and Royston. That kind of usage would more easily justify expense capital investment.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite. With the new housing estates the service level on the southern busway simply has to improve. Meanwhile on the north I believe the frequency is now triple on Sundays the original service? It started as a hourly.

I hadn't even considered the idea of routing the Babraham P&R, Royston 26 or Haverhill 13/X13 via the busway, but it would make sense. I fear the Trumpington cutting single track may limit capacity for services though?

 

[Oscar]

An alternative proposal could have been a heavy rail line from Cambridge to Huntingdon plus four tracking from Huntingdon to Peterborough. There could have been a half-hourly stopping service and a half-hourly semi-fast service with one train continuing as the Cambridge Cruiser to London and perhaps one as a service to Liverpool Street. The Stansted Airport to Birmingham service could have been diverted this way as one of the semi-fast services. Shuttle buses could have connected a station in the north of Cambridge to the city centre and a park and ride could have been built in that area for services to London. This would have had the disadvantage of running at a lower frequency, not serving Cambridge city centre directly and not providing as many stops between Cambridge and Huntingdon. Advantages would have included faster journey times, through services to other destinations and perhaps increased capacity for freight running between East Anglia ports and the Midlands on this or the Ely - Peterborough line. CAST.IRON believes that the re-opening of a rail route would have been much cheaper than the building of a guided busway.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. The only reason LA‘s were forced to build these things was because Blair wasn‘t interested in trains and the railways were perceived as highly subsidised (which, to be fair, they were, in comparison to now).

 

[L&Y Robert]

Even a 22m Citadis Compact (the smallest tram I know of) is more expensive to run than a 7.1m Optare Solo.
And the Optare Solo can make climbs the tram could never dream of.

Burnley single deckers (Towneley-Rose Hill route) managed 1 in 9 over the canal bridge on the continuous gradient of Manchester Road, a half-mile south of the town centre. A 4-foot guage line, closed and abandoned around 1937. And Newcastle Metro "Super-tram" prototype did a demonstration standing start (I was on board) on the 1 in 14 'steep bit' of their test track.

 

[6Gman]

The answer is obvious. Attach the telescopes to the buses and run them on the busway instead.

And that way they don't need an operator.

[I'll get my hat ]

 

[CockneySparrow]

An alternative proposal could have been a heavy rail line from Cambridge to Huntingdon plus four tracking from Huntingdon to Peterborough. There could have been a half-hourly stopping service and a half-hourly semi-fast service with one train continuing as the Cambridge Cruiser to London and perhaps one as a service to Liverpool Street. The Stansted Airport to Birmingham service could have been diverted this way as one of the semi-fast services. Shuttle buses could have connected a station in the north of Cambridge to the city centre and a park and ride could have been built in that area for services to London. This would have had the disadvantage of running at a lower frequency, not serving Cambridge city centre directly and not providing as many stops between Cambridge and Huntingdon. Advantages would have included faster journey times, through services to other destinations and perhaps increased capacity for freight running between East Anglia ports and the Midlands on this or the Ely - Peterborough line. CAST.IRON believes that the re-opening of a rail route would have been much cheaper than the building of a guided busway.

The only problem with routing CC services through there would mean less trains between Cambridge to Peterborough through Ely and March

Suppose there could be several options to counter act the loss

The CC services could split at Cambridge from Stansted with one train carrying on as normal while the second went via Huntingdon possibly linking up again at Peterborough or half hourly to Liecester from PBO

GA could run the Cambridge terminators to Ely with an hourly Ipswich to Peterborough service

The Bramley line could reopen again with a split in the old Spalding platform from Wisbech

However pointless suggesting such theories as the busway is here to stay

 

[gingerheid]

Quite. With the new housing estates the service level on the southern busway simply has to improve.

These give rise to a new problem; the Foster Rd stop is in the wrong place. Where it is sited gives it a really good service to Addenbrooke's (which is totally within walking distance) and Trumpington Park and Ride (why would you want to go there?). If it was a few yards down the guideway on the other side of the Addenbrooke's junction it would still have an equally fast service to Addenbrooke's for those that can't walk, and it would also have a fast service to the Railway Station and City Centre. As it stands you can walk to the Railway station in an average waiting time + the time the bus spends on its comprehensive tour of Addenbrooke's. The same problem exists at Orchard Park East; which if 100 yards round the corner would have double the service and provide a link between Orchard Park and the Cambridge North station once it opens.

Meanwhile on the north I believe the frequency is now triple on Sundays the original service? It started as a hourly.

That's true, and it's this that proves to my mind that Stagecoach could try much harder with the service. The predecessor services 553/554/555, in the days when you were nervous about buying a monthly season ticket for Hunts Bus in case they were as close to insolvency as the increasingly terrible condition of the ever older rust buckets they kept replacing their decentish buses with suggested, didn't run on Sundays at all. The initial timetable was hourly, and this quickly increased to three an hour between Cambridge and St Ives. 0 an hour to three an hour works, and they're busy. During the weekday St Ives has gone from 3 buses an hour to 8, a remarkable increase and a stark contrast with the 0 buses an hour that run on Sunday evenings.

I think they could go from 0 an hour to more than 0 an hour earlier in the morning and in the evening on Sundays too. One of the new links that comes out the busway is various park and ride sites in Hunts to Addenbrooke's; ideal for getting staff out cars. Why not complete the job by making them able to get to work by bus *every* day rather than just some days?

Hunts Bus used to run 1 / 2 buses an hour in the evening, and that's still the service. I think they could go up to two or three buses an hour if they wanted to.

Hunts Bus used to run to 11ish at night M - Su, and that's still the service. I think that, again if they wanted to, they could push that to certainly the early hours of the morning, and possibly even 24 hours a day.

That's the kind of service level that would have people not needing cars.

I hadn't even considered the idea of routing the Babraham P&R, Royston 26 or Haverhill 13/X13 via the busway, but it would make sense. I fear the Trumpington cutting single track may limit capacity for services though?

The single track section isn't long, I don't think it's too much of a problem. Babraham and Haverhill buses wouldn't be affected at all. Some buses might lose a minute or two waiting to get through; but they'd save more time by being able to use the rest of the guideway. The fatal flaw is that the three bridges on the southern guideway can all only take single deckers. That's just not enough to divert any serious route via the Guideway; the 13s, 26, Green & Blue all necessarily use only double deckers

 

[Bald Rick]

CAST.IRON believes that the re-opening of a rail route would have been much cheaper than the building of a guided busway.

They can believe what they like, it doesn't make it true!

Re-quading Huntingdon to Peterboro' alone will almost certainly cost more than Cambs CC paid for the bus way.

 

[Oscar]

The four-tracking of Huntingdon to Peterborough would be highly advantageous with or without a new line from Huntingdon to Cambridge or a guided busway as it would prevent disruption from Thameslink services to Peterborough from affecting ECML running. The price of reinstating the Cambridge to Huntingdon rail link would be a more appropriate cost comparison.

 

[Bald Rick]

The four-tracking of Huntingdon to Peterborough would be highly advantageous with or without a new line from Huntingdon to Cambridge or a guided busway as it would prevent disruption from Thameslink services to Peterborough from affecting ECML running. The price of reinstating the Cambridge to Huntingdon rail link would be a more appropriate cost comparison.

About £300m.

 

[HSTEd]

So, notwithstanding the collosal price overruns (which should never have happened considering its half a road surface and thats about it), is this project considered to be succesful?

Has it improved ridership and punctuality of the bus services it supports?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes its considered more than successful and the primary failing for the overruns was with the contractors trying to save a few bob by not complying with the councils drainage specifications then having to go back later and redo it when there was flooding to which the council recovered most of the money from BAM Nuttal through the courts as it was a fixed price contract with council liability limited and fines for late delivery so the council was only forced to pay the loan interest and legal fees, instead of challenging those they settled to avoid court costs, so in the end BAM was paid £100m on a £90m original construction budget for approx £160m construction work carried out, quite a big contractual loss.

 

[HSTEd]

Apparently even including legal fees the cost of the busway was something like £6.4m per route kilometre.

That is surprisingly cheap, if we assume the original budget was reasonable it drops to ~£4.6m/route-km.

I am beginning to warm to busways....

Whats the cheapest capital cost anyone has for a light or heavy rail link in similar terain?

 

[transmanche]

I am beginning to warm to busways....

And I'm guessing the bus operators like them too; as it appears they have the benefit of the exclusive use of the busway, without having to cover any of the capital or running costs. Unlike the operator of an equivalent light rail operation.

 

[Squaddie]

An alternative proposal could have been a heavy rail line from Cambridge to Huntingdon plus four tracking from Huntingdon to Peterborough...

CAST.IRON believes that the re-opening of a rail route would have been much cheaper than the building of a guided busway.

CAST.IRON is a pressure group, whose figures should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. Their claim that the entire railway line from Cambridge to Huntingdon could have been reinstated for £50m is ludicrous.

 

[yorksrob]

When judging the success of the project, one must also look at the aspirations of the local area and what people hoped to achieve for their money.

The reality is that St Ives has gone from being a town with a bus service only to being a town with a slightly faster bus service only. Where cast iron are probably correct is that the area aspired to go from being a town with a bus service only to being a town linked and fully integrated with the National railway network.

In this respect, the costs of the project may have been cheaper, but the outcomes haven‘t met aspirations.

 

[Buttsy]

Not knowing the area and costings very well, it does feel to me that a single line electrified railway with a passing loop and 3-4 new stations on an existing mothballed formation would have probably ended up costing something similar to the 2 lane busway.
This feeling is based on the £300m cost of the Airdrie - Bathgate link and approx £60m for the Alloa - Kincardine re-opening.

 

[Johnuk123]

CAST.IRON is a pressure group, whose figures should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. Their claim that the entire railway line from Cambridge to Huntingdon could have been reinstated for £50m is ludicrous.

£50m would get you from central Cambridge to the outskirts, that figure is miles and miles out.

 

[Buttsy]

£50m would get you from central Cambridge to the outskirts, that figure is miles and miles out.

The figures quoted were at the start of the project, not now. I agree that the figure is way too low for Cambridge - Huntingdon, but I cannot see how it would have cost £50m to put a connection into the Ely line at Chesterton and carry out the relevant works to get a line to Histon 5 years ago. I am sure that £50m would have got you further than that. Alloa - kincardine cost £60m at that time.

 

[radamfi]

One of the main arguments against heavy rail was that there would be no stop in the city centre.

How would the patronage of a heavy rail connection compare to that using the busway?

 

[WatcherZero]

The route runs from St Ives to Cambridge station and has a frequency minimum of two per hour rising to as much as a combined 8 per hour in the peaks between the two. How is that any less integrated to the national rail network than a one per hour rail shuttle alternative?

 

[tbtc]

When judging the success of the project, one must also look at the aspirations of the local area and what people hoped to achieve for their money.

The reality is that St Ives has gone from being a town with a bus service only to being a town with a slightly faster bus service only. Where cast iron are probably correct is that the area aspired to go from being a town with a bus service only to being a town linked and fully integrated with the National railway network.

In this respect, the costs of the project may have been cheaper, but the outcomes haven‘t met aspirations.

It depends on whether you think that having a train station is an end in itself. If the asperation was "St Ives needs a train station" then the busway has failed. If the asperation was "St Ives needs to be better connected to the rest of Cambridgeshire" then its succeeded.

St Ives has gone from being a town that is five miles from the nearest train station (Huntingdon) to a town that is five miles from the nearest train station (but one of the bus services from St Ives to Huntingdon now uses a guided busway on the route from Cambridge) - residents of St Ives are closer to a train station that much of the rest of the population.

The busway seems to be working pretty well, to me. A railway would be better in some respects, but worse in others - e.g. it wouldn't be flexible enough to offer all of the different destinations at the north east end, it wouldn't serve the centre of Cambridge, it wouldn't give the cross city link to the hospital.

 

[jopsuk]

Alloa-Kincardine only included one station. Did the £60 million include the bridges that replaced level crossings?

If it had been reopened as heavy rail, the St Ives brnach would have wanted quite a few stations. At the very least:
Chesterton Junction (where the new station, about £25 million I think, is going)
Histon
Northstowe (passive provision?)
Longstanton
Swavesy
St Ives

You'd also still need to build a new viaduct over the Ouse (one of the biggest costs of the busway), you'd also need to justify the level crossing over Milton Road. yes, there used to be one there, but the road has got much, much busier since.

 

[yorksrob]

It depends on whether you think that having a train station is an end in itself. If the asperation was "St Ives needs a train station" then the busway has failed. If the asperation was "St Ives needs to be better connected to the rest of Cambridgeshire" then its succeeded.

St Ives has gone from being a town that is five miles from the nearest train station (Huntingdon) to a town that is five miles from the nearest train station (but one of the bus services from St Ives to Huntingdon now uses a guided busway on the route from Cambridge) - residents of St Ives are closer to a train station that much of the rest of the population.

The busway seems to be working pretty well, to me. A railway would be better in some respects, but worse in others - e.g. it wouldn't be flexible enough to offer all of the different destinations at the north east end, it wouldn't serve the centre of Cambridge, it wouldn't give the cross city link to the hospital.

Fair point, but to put it another way, do we really think that longer distance travellers who are accustomed to driving to the station, are much more likely to catch the bus - even on the guided busway to the station, then catch a train. The "horses for courses" argument regarding train versus bus has been played out many times, but the reality is that people have never really been transport mode "blind".

Theoretically, a 2 minute service going direct to the station should win hands down, but I'm still guessing that the busway is going to stop rather more than the train would have done - particularly towards the Cambridge end, and this will have an impact as well.

My hunch is that a lot of those using the busway would have already been pretty well served by existing buses whereas a railway would have served a wider segment of the population. Also, yes, the choice of destinations may have been smaller at the St Ives end, but a through train to London would have been just as valuable in other respects.

Corby is a relevant example. it might not have vast numbers of passengers, but I wonder whether it's residents would have felt that a busway would have been a better option than the train service. I doubt it.

 

[glbotu]

.....you'd also need to justify the level crossing over Milton Road. yes, there used to be one there, but the road has got much, much busier since.

There actually used to be a bridge. Basically, Milton Road was narrower and the road used to dive under the railway. When Milton Road was expanded and the railway closed, the bridge was demolished and the road was built on a new bridge over where the road used to go. You can see it when you drive over it or when you cycle from the business park. The cycle lane goes pretty much where the road used to. (I'm just correcting you, I still agree that a reconstruction of the railway would have cost > £50m, given the cost of building a new bridge/road alignment there too).

One of the major issues with the busway is that the bus does slow down considerably once it hits Cambridge. The A route (via Milton Road) is significantly slowed down by Milton Road traffic and the B route (via Histon Road), suffers the same problem on Histon Road. On top of this, a large portion need to go down Hills Road, which is always awful. (It's actually quicker to walk, for me, from City Centre to Railway Station than it is to get a bus).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What it has done, is improve the reliability of the St Ives route of the bus, which no longer gets stuck in A14 traffic on its way to getting people to the Science Park.

 

[tbtc]

Fair point, but to put it another way, do we really think that longer distance travellers who are accustomed to driving to the station, are much more likely to catch the bus - even on the guided busway to the station, then catch a train

What number of long distance passengers are there likely to be from St Ives?

The main destinations that the busway serves are the Science Park, central Cambridge, Cambridge Train Station and the Hospital.

For all of the suggestions about diverting Cambridge - Birmingham trains via St Ives (etc) on this thread, the bread and butter destinations are the ones that the Busway serves.

Theoretically, a 2 minute service going direct to the station should win hands down, but I'm still guessing that the busway is going to stop rather more than the train would have done - particularly towards the Cambridge end, and this will have an impact as well

The reason that the busway stops in more places is because it has a more stops than a train would do - i.e. its useful to a broader spectrum. How many stops would there be on a railway line from St Ives to Cambridge?

My hunch is that a lot of those using the busway would have already been pretty well served by existing buses whereas a railway would have served a wider segment of the population. Also, yes, the choice of destinations may have been smaller at the St Ives end, but a through train to London would have been just as valuable in other respects

What realistic chance was there of direct trains from St Ives to London though?

 

[WestCountry]

What realistic chance was there of direct trains from St Ives to London though?

Assuming it was electrified, not too bad - there are a few terminating London trains an hour at Cambridge, including a fast and a semi-fast, so it would only be a matter of finding an extra unit.