Cameras replacing mirrors. A backwards step?

[Harpo]

I am considering having my indicators removed as they appear to be becoming redundant, judging by others' use of them...

White van man likes them in hazard mode to indicate ‘parking wherever I bloody want’. (Bonus points for blocking a pavement.)

 

[Andy Pacer]

Have to say from using them whilst driving buses they're are amazing compared to standard mirrors especially in rain and at night.

Really? Those are the conditions where I find the reversing camera on my car the least useful, the picture quality is awful at night and water on the camera distorts the image, in both cases mirrors give a clearer view.

The one big advantage is it cuts down on blind spots.

I agree in my experience of driving buses with camera mirrors they're much better in poor weather and at night. The vast majority of our fleet have camera mirrors (with only about half a dozen buses with conventional mirrors) and the difference is very noticeable. Mainly for me by the camera mirror taking away the problem of having to see through the door or windscreen glass which is wet and dirty, and the same with the mirror glass.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The one big advantage of cameras over mirrors is the much reduced size of the forward protrusion. Many a time I have had to duck whilst waiting at a bus stop layby as the bus swings round over the pavement with the wing mirror leading.

That sounds like a combination of poor driving on the part of the bus drivers, and poor positioning by yourself. I've never found it necessary to stand right at the edge of the kerb in order to signal a bus driver to stop, nor to maintain the hand signal right up to the moment the bus comes to a stop. Once you've been seen by the driver and they've put their left indicator on, you can step back and lower your hand.

 

[Goldfish62]

I agree in my experience of driving buses with camera mirrors they're much better in poor weather and at night. The vast majority of our fleet have camera mirrors (with only about half a dozen buses with conventional mirrors) and the difference is very noticeable. Mainly for me by the camera mirror taking away the problem of having to see through the door or windscreen glass which is wet and dirty, and the same with the mirror glass.

Yep. They're great. Trying to see the nearside mirror through the assault screen and windscreen in the dark and when it's raining - it may as well not be there sometimes!

I've only driven buses with camera mirrors a couple of times, but I've noticed there's also less distortion and a wider field of vision.

 

[bleeder4]

I'm not generally a fan of fixing a problem that doesn't exist. And with a lot of technology it may fix one problem but then create a new problem. Technology is a fickle beast and fails on a fairly regular basis, usually with huge consequences because we've embedded it into so many areas of society. I will keep driving my car with its glass mirrors, manual handbrake, buttons, knobs and dials for as long as it continues to pass the MOT. Modern cars these days are like spaceships. Gone completely overboard with all the gadgets.

 

[MotCO]

That sounds like a combination of poor driving on the part of the bus drivers, and poor positioning by yourself. I've never found it necessary to stand right at the edge of the kerb in order to signal a bus driver to stop, nor to maintain the hand signal right up to the moment the bus comes to a stop. Once you've been seen by the driver and they've put their left indicator on, you can step back and lower your hand.

No, I am more careful than that. The point I was making was that nearside mirrors can protrude quite a long way forward which can hit all manner of things - a camera will not. Also, some coaches have mirrors more like cow horns protruding - e.g. Setras
https://www.flickr.com/photos/83759...7-AQ7Su1-D69BKX-nRdMDr-TQwhTB-2chc9Ac-2eEWumM (not my photo: shows picture of Setra coach with wing mirrors way out front.

 

[gswindale]

My current car has normal mirrors and a reversing camera, which is quite poor, in my view, in poor visibility conditions (at night, rain etc.) - it's almost of no use when reversing onto our drive on a dark, wet night, although once the garage door is open, it is a bit better due to the lighting being improved.

I had the opportunity the other day to experience a Toyota bz4x all electric car, which still had the conventional mirrors. Again, it had a reversing camera, although that felt to be of a much higher quality image to me compared to my existing one. The other thing I noticed was that it had what appeared to be cameras all around the car, so once I was in the car park attempting to park, I could see on the infotainment screen all around the car, so was able to easily see if I was in between all of the lines and how central I actually was, which I felt helped make it easier to park.

 

[Merle Haggard]

That sounds like a combination of poor driving on the part of the bus drivers, and poor positioning by yourself. I've never found it necessary to stand right at the edge of the kerb in order to signal a bus driver to stop, nor to maintain the hand signal right up to the moment the bus comes to a stop. Once you've been seen by the driver and they've put their left indicator on, you can step back and lower your hand.

I detect that you never experienced the drivers of the gone but not forgotten Northampton (Corporation) Transport.
Using them (you had no choice in town - country buses weren't allowed to carry locally) one held out one's arms to hail the bus, and the indicator would come on - but if you lowered your arm before the bus had stopped, the driver would presumably interpret it as 'you've changed your mind and no longer want it', the offside indicator would come on and they would accelerate past you.
Apparently standing at a lone bus stop in pouring rain could be for many purposes other than waiting for a bus; if you didn't stand at the kerb edge it was assumed that you didn't want the bus - even with the arms extended. To be absolutely sure of the bus stopping, you really needed to stand in the road and use both arms.
From many other experiences the aim of the staff, supported by management, was to deter as many people as possibl from using their buses. That made their work so much easier. There was, of course, no question of redundancies to match the staffing to traffic levels.
My experience of other municipal bus companies was that Northampton were far from unique.
If I sound grumpy it was from using them from age (about) 7 to 9 and then 11 to 18; no choice.

 

[Magdalia]

First of all, there is no feedback for other road users as the camera setup only works in one direction, unlike mirrors which allow more vulnerable road users to know if the driver of the vehicle in question has seen them. We've all seen those stickers on the backs of lorries that say "If you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you!"- cameras do not have this advantage so will increase risk for more vulnerable road users.

When cycling I do look out for lines of sight via rear view mirrors, especially HGVs.

The one big advantage of cameras over mirrors is the much reduced size of the forward protrusion. Many a time I have had to duck whilst waiting at a bus stop layby as the bus swings round over the pavement with the wing mirror leading.

I'm tall and have to pay attention to this too, including the nearside mirrors of the double deckers in Cambridge.

White van man likes them in hazard mode to indicate ‘parking wherever I bloody want’. (Bonus points for blocking a pavement.)

Double points for blocking a cycle lane and triple points for blocking a bus lane.

 

[The exile]

That sounds like a combination of poor driving on the part of the bus drivers, and poor positioning by yourself. I've never found it necessary to stand right at the edge of the kerb in order to signal a bus driver to stop, nor to maintain the hand signal right up to the moment the bus comes to a stop. Once you've been seen by the driver and they've put their left indicator on, you can step back and lower your hand.

For me, it’s remembering to duck on leaving the bus when all directions except forward are blocked by street furniture, the bus queue etc. Seen it happen to lots of other people too - I assume that the positioning/size of mirrors has changed.

 

[Magdalia]

For me, it’s remembering to duck on leaving the bus when all directions except forward are blocked by street furniture, the bus queue etc. Seen it happen to lots of other people too - I assume that the positioning/size of mirrors has changed.

In a lot of instances what has changed is the height of the kerb, to provide level access for wheelchairs and pushchairs.

 

[philthetube]

This is something that has come up in the "switching to EVs" thread a few times, but isn't directly related to the EV question. More and more new vehicles, particularly larger ones such as buses and LGVs, are being supplied with cameras and screens in place of wing mirrors.

However I think this is a negative for safety for a few key reasons. First of all, there is no feedback for other road users as the camera setup only works in one direction, unlike mirrors which allow more vulnerable road users to know if the driver of the vehicle in question has seen them. We've all seen those stickers on the backs of lorries that say "If you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you!"- cameras do not have this advantage so will increase risk for more vulnerable road users.
Secondly, with a mirror you can change the angle of the pane and thus observe in different areas simply by moving your head. The only way to do this with the camera/screen set up is to move the camera itself.
One slight positive with cameras is the elimination of the blind spot, but we already have a tried and tested way of doing this which again is to move your head and check the blind spot- something which all drivers should have been taught and which takes less than a second. That said, I'm not opposed to some sort of system that warns about the blind spots being occupied, as long as it is in addition to traditional wing mirrors, not instead of them.

The worst defence of the camera setup though, is that they're less likely to get damaged. Anyone who routinely clips street furniture and other vehicles with their wing mirrors shouldn't be driving. Sure we can all have the odd one-off incident, and sometimes some idiot will clip your mirror while you're parked and you're left to pick up the pieces... but the disadvantages of cameras far outweigh the advantages for me.

What do others think? I know some of our regular contributors to this section of the forum are very much pro-everything new. I'm admittedly something of a dinosaur when it comes to in-car technology. Maybe there's something I've missed that will change my mind on this topic?

EDIT 18/12/24: I'm not referring to reversing cameras or parking assist, just the replacement of traditional wing or door mirrors with cameras and screens.

The same is true of cameras, if you cannot see my camera I cannot see you.

Those stickers should say if you cant see my face I cant see you. In any case Cyclists who ride up the inside of large vehicles are trusting others with their lives, the rule should be never be on the inside of a lorry/bus unless you are sure it is parked and not going to move.

I prefer cameras, the only issue I have is that because I rarely vehicles with use them I keep glancing at the non existent mirror before remembering.

 

[BlueLeanie]

The one big advantage of cameras over mirrors is the much reduced size of the forward protrusion. Many a time I have had to duck whilst waiting at a bus stop layby as the bus swings round over the pavement with the wing mirror leading.

This!

Particularly in rural villages where the pavements are narrow and the roads are equally narrow.

 

[philthetube]

A big question is which of the 2 are most likely to happen, mirrors broken or knocked off or cameras failing?

 

[BlueLeanie]

A big question is which of the 2 are most likely to happen, mirrors broken or knocked off or cameras failing?

Vandalism of a vehicle with cameras is far less likely.

 

[philthetube]

Struck me last night, mirrors on deckers are more of a problem as there is not bottom deck roof height roof height to allow the mirrors to be well above head height, even more of an issue on low bridge deckers.

 

[PG]

Struck me last night

Hope it wasn't too painful
Sseriously though, it seems to have long been a problem with forward entrance deckers as the height of the windscreen is limited by the level of the upper deck floor which leaves the mirror at just the wrong height for passengers alighting. Not an issue with dual doors of course!