Why not consider reality, before sounding off online. The NYMR simply does not have the infrastructure to accommodate an extra train in each direction an hour. It is a single line, with only two passing places. Even if you factor in the soon to be added capability to cross Whitby trains at Grosmont, it won't make that much difference. If you start to run your three car TPE DMU in one of the available paths, you loose 7 - 8 Mk 1's full of people, who are off to spend money on the NYMR, or in Whitby. That is called an own goal. You are still not allowing for the non availability of paths to Whitby either. There are only three NYMR services to there per day at the moment, and for good reason. The paths for more do not exist!
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Campaign for Malton-Pickering reopening to allow services to Whitby
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Why not consider reality, before sounding off online. The NYMR simply does not have the infrastructure to accommodate an extra train in each direction an hour. It is a single line, with only two passing places. Even if you factor in the soon to be added capability to cross Whitby trains at Grosmont, it won't make that much difference. If you start to run your three car TPE DMU in one of the available paths, you loose 7 - 8 Mk 1's full of people, who are off to spend money on the NYMR, or in Whitby. That is called an own goal. You are still not allowing for the non availability of paths to Whitby either. There are only three NYMR services to there per day at the moment, and for good reason. The paths for more do not exist!
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Ploughman
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That show ran for 9 days.
I was manning the stand for 4 of those days.
The Junior volunteers for 3 so that means that you must have spoken to the bodies I brought in from another group.
As I certainly never chatted to anyone about the link in any other fashion than "Yes It would be nice to have but no chance from the NYMR"
Thank you.
To be honest, if the rail link to Whitby is going to be reinstated, I don't think anyone is going to be messing about with heritage signals. It would have to be funded by "government" money, and I think that would be the modern world way of doing things. No paying signalmen; just TCB operated from York. I can't see TOC's wanting to mess about with training their drivers to work with Train Staff and Ticket, etc either.
You get into that sort of investment, and the people making it will be deciding which trains get to run. If the line gets upgraded to NR standards, that's the end of a lot of volunteers (only a minority are EVL trained), plus any non NR compliant stock,
such as the teak set. The cost of NR certifiction for everything else (that isn't already) would be prohibitive.
The whole issue is a great big can of worms, which is best left tightly closed. The line is best kept as a major tourist attraction, bringing jobs and money into the National Park area, with the added benefit of bring a "Park & Ride" service to Whitby. If you want to invest in a reopening in Yorkshire, FFS put the Leeds Northern back in. A "get out of jail" card for the ECML would be far more use, than recreating Victorian holiday services, and hoping that they would fit in with modern day travel practices.
YorkshireBear
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Good way of looking at it. And sends me to not thinking it is really feasible.
I still think a pickering parkway would work (ish) and having looked at Battersby Northallerton on google it looks possible (as in trackbed is still there in the most part) and would definitely provide Whitby with a far better service.
DarloRich
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JohnCarlson
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Yes that is what I have been saying. :roll:
We haven't go the money to do it but it would be nice if it was built but if even if we had more money there are other bills we would need to pay first.
That's a fair point - I suppose it'd be difficult for the NYMR to maintain much influence over it as a through route if a lot of the money comes from outside. Given the scale of the investment required, as I think we've now all agreed, to provide the necessary additional capacity (I hadn't even begun to consider the situation beyond Grosmont!), I think that's inevitable!
YorkshireBear
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but no body lives in that area! That line ran to Picton not Northallerton
It would provide Whitby with a far faster rail link to York though which is what its point would be to me....
David Goddard
Established Member
If there is enough support to reopen the link from Malton to Pickering, then I would support this option out of them all.
It restores a rail link to the immediate area, and enables through journeys to be made, albeit with a short walk between the stations in Pickering, just as it is in Totnes or Sheringham (yes I know that one is just across the road) for example.
JohnCarlson
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This post really made my day. I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
Your phrase "You cannot just make up a scenario to suit your own point of view, then make strenuous defences against it." is an absolute classic. Well done.
I thought inventing scenarios was an essential part of speculation which is one part of discussion which is what this forum is about.
I presume.
Or do you just mean, "There is a bus already running so lets just make do with that."
Let me know would you.
You need to consider what happens between Battersby & Whitby.
It's operated under NSTR - info here: http://www.railsigns.co.uk/info/nstr1/nstr1.html
Only two sections - Battersby - Glaisdale - Whitby. Very limited capacity. There would need to be some very serious investment to increase this.
If someone else was going to pay for a spur off the Scarborough line as far as, and with a buffer stop at, Pickering, which ideally could be accessed from both York & Scarborough directions, then that would be great. Be not a reconstruction of the whole 30 or so mile corridor please.
JohnCarlson
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You seem very negative about the idea of extending the national rail network. Talking of recreating Victorian holiday specials is just being ridiculously cynical. You might as well say that HS2" is just the re imaging of of Victorian main line.
Just looking at Google earth shows Whitby is quite a big area and of course it has a lot of tourism as well. I am sure that trains running to York would be similarly popular as those from Scarborough.
Equally I am sure the NYMR would like the idea of a link to the south as this could bring in excursion trains as well as passengers for the NYMR. A TPE service might only stop at Pickering at a station the opposite side of the road to the NYMR station and tn run none stop to Whitby.
Of course if this were to ever happen there would be practicalities to be worked out but raising the speed limit on parts of the NYMR and more loops might be the answer. Now that the Waverly line is to be reinstated at a cost of £300 million twenty million for a link to Pickering then another ten spent on other infrastructure doesn't seem all that much.
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Pickering is quite a reasonable sized town so there would be some scope for a spur and a station near the NYMR one but with a connection not a buffer stop. there are at least two places on the Scarborough line that could have stations built to increase passenger numbers an having more trains would make the service more attractive.
Not sure exactly what time of the day trains start running on the NYMR but I would have thought the biggest demand from Whitby to York would be very early in the morning then on the way back after six at night. That dosent strike me as being the NYMR peak times.
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Indeed that would be a step forwards.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
This post really made my day. I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Your phrase "You cannot just make up a scenario to suit your own point of view, then make strenuous defences against it." is an absolute classic. Well done.
I thought inventing scenarios was an essential part of speculation which is one part of discussion which is what this forum is about, I presume. Or do you just mean, "There is a bus already running so lets just make do with that."
Let me know would you.
This is the second time that I have had to respond to you, this time in response to the comment expressed by you in your final sentence.
There are very few times when the immortal words said in 'Allo 'Allo.."Listen very carefully, I shall say this once once"... have sprung to mind when I have made a posting, but it appears to be necessary in your case.
I made a comment to query what the costings at 2012/3 prices would be for the total rail reinstatement including all ancillary costs, such as consultancy fees, as was the case in the final costings of the Todmorden Chord, to elicit what these total costs may amount to, should that information be available to a contributor to this thread who may be privy to this financial information and to be in a position to submit this information in a posting to this thread.
I care not one iota with regard to any espousement of any alternative travel afforded by other modes of transport, as you seemed to suggest in response to my very first posting and I only made a note of the Yorkshire Coastliner as a fact of life as this is a current entity. Nowhere will you find a comment made by me that this proposed rail service should impinge upon this other method of transport, as there is no reason whatsoever why I should take up such a position.
As far as I am concerned, this discussion between us has now been terminated.
No matter how many times you try to explain the real world realities, some people just don't bother to try to grasp them.
185
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An interesting connection.... Someone at the top of NYMR used to be in a high up technical / operations position at TPE, and now works in his full time job as a high up technical / operations manager at Network Rail. Being mostly single line, I agree passing places on the NYM are a nightmare, however I think they couldn't be in a better hands to plan for future extensions should they become reality. Never say never
The NYMR isn't short of people with mainline railway connections.
What needs to be remembered, is that most of the route was engineered, when motive power had four legs, ate hay and f****d. That is part of its charm. It's never going to be a fast enough line, to compete with road transport for convenience. The infrastructure serves a more useful function in its present form.
What needs to be remembered, is that most of the route was engineered, when motive power had four legs, ate hay and f****d. That is part of its charm. It's never going to be a fast enough line, to compete with road transport for convenience. The infrastructure serves a more useful function in its present form.
kylemore
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Which is why in a subsequent post I said if no money is spent on increasing capacity on the NYMR and existing Whitby section then yes it's a non-starter.
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My local line dates from the 1840s and it manages to function as a modern railway.
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Thank goodness the Alloa Line, the Airdrie Bathgate line and the Waverley line never became heritage lines during the time they were temporarily closed.
Very sadly, Scarborough-Whitby would not be a goer without absolutely massive investments. At the Scarborough end the link to the existing line no longer exists, though I suppose you could build some kind of simple station just beyond the supermarket built on the old goods yard site.
You would have to divert the line east around Scalby unless a large number of houses were demolished, and there would also be challenges at Robin Hood's Bay.
Parts of the line, particularly around the Hayburn Wyke-Ravenscar stretch, could probably be fairly readily re-instated as some kind of pet/vanity project, but I reckon that's about it.
JohnCarlson
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Yes your correct but I will try to explain things to you one more time and you might just grasp it. Please try.
There is a lot of potential with a link to the NYMR.
I am not expecting them to pay for it.
If capacity improvements have to be made to the NYMR and the NR lines than they have to be made before anything happens.
However the peak times for say a morning commuter train traveling from Whitby to Pickering are likely to largely to fall outside NYMR peak times anyway. Where they overlap maybe something can be worked out.
I an mot suggesting the NYMR should be strong armed into anything.
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IIRC the Whitby Scarborough line was the original choice of the NYMR because the scenery and route was spectacular, but things did not work out for that. Maybe the NYMR should rebuild the Whitby Scarborough line decamp to it and then surrender their existing line to commuter traffic.
That last bit was a joke btw.
WestRiding
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If the NYMR are against mainline trains using their infrastructure, they should be re-thinking their motives of running over Network Rail Metals to Whitby.
JohnCarlson
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Wel for a start I don't think they are against it. However I don't think Merchant Navy locos and Class thirty ones in railfreight colours did a lot of work on the line prior to the 1960's.
route:oxford
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Thank goodness the Alloa Line, the Airdrie Bathgate line and the Waverley line never became heritage lines during the time they were temporarily closed.
Likewise a real shame that the Dunblane, Doune & Callander line didn't.
I don't follow this. Paths to Whitby are leased on an Open Access basis; no different to any other charter, etc. operator. There is no expectation of there being any sort of reciprocal arrangement. The motive for running to Whitby, is to grow and strengthen the NYMR business.
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I can't think of either doing any since either, but I couldn't swear that there hasn't been a grey 31 for a gala. Certainly nothing regular!
Think you'd struggle getting an MN down to Whitby as well......
There is one possibility (and it remains only that) of finding funding for a Malton-Pickering reopening (in whatever form): Flamingoland.
Flamingoland is right between Malton and Pickering. According to Wikipedia (not the best source of information, I know) it receives 1.8 million visitors per year. I don't find it inconceivable that a rail link could transport a million visitors a year. Part of this would be through existing users switching tp the train, but part would also be due to new markets becoming available. The park itself may need to grow to accomodate this, but I'm trying to keep the park economics out of this.
Of those 1 million people, say approx half are children. Of the average train ticket price from Leeds or York to FL, I would then expect £1-£2 to be available for such a link, as long as a stop at FL were provided. Note that this is from the train ticket, not the park admission ticket. Splitting the difference (£1.50) and assuming an amortisation cost of 10%, this alone could just an investment of £15 million, purely on a commercial basis. Add in a proportion of park admission (through combined ticketing or similar) and this could go up to £25 million. This is in addition to any tourist traffic to other destinations and any commuting revenue that may be garnered.
The investment I note above needn't come from the owners of FL. I don't know what their financial situation is anyway. There would be some contract negotiations for the X ticketing but that would be an easy transaction.
A good point to be made about theme parks is they don't generally open until 10:30-11:00 (at least, last time I went to one). Therefore, from a TOC operating perspective, units can be deployed to commuter routes during peak time there, and then run a service from (say) Leeds to FL (and beyond) departing about 9:30. Everybody's happy!
(Cue depressing reasons as to why this can't be done...)
Flamingoland is right between Malton and Pickering. According to Wikipedia (not the best source of information, I know) it receives 1.8 million visitors per year. I don't find it inconceivable that a rail link could transport a million visitors a year. Part of this would be through existing users switching tp the train, but part would also be due to new markets becoming available. The park itself may need to grow to accomodate this, but I'm trying to keep the park economics out of this.
Of those 1 million people, say approx half are children. Of the average train ticket price from Leeds or York to FL, I would then expect £1-£2 to be available for such a link, as long as a stop at FL were provided. Note that this is from the train ticket, not the park admission ticket. Splitting the difference (£1.50) and assuming an amortisation cost of 10%, this alone could just an investment of £15 million, purely on a commercial basis. Add in a proportion of park admission (through combined ticketing or similar) and this could go up to £25 million. This is in addition to any tourist traffic to other destinations and any commuting revenue that may be garnered.
The investment I note above needn't come from the owners of FL. I don't know what their financial situation is anyway. There would be some contract negotiations for the X ticketing but that would be an easy transaction.
A good point to be made about theme parks is they don't generally open until 10:30-11:00 (at least, last time I went to one). Therefore, from a TOC operating perspective, units can be deployed to commuter routes during peak time there, and then run a service from (say) Leeds to FL (and beyond) departing about 9:30. Everybody's happy!
(Cue depressing reasons as to why this can't be done...)
JohnCarlson
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I don't think any of us thought you wore going to say that.
Nice idea anyway.
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I don't follow this. Paths to Whitby are leased on an Open Access basis; no different to any other charter, etc. operator. There is no expectation of there being any sort of reciprocal arrangement. The motive for running to Whitby, is to grow and strengthen the NYMR business.
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I can't think of either doing any since either, but I couldn't swear that there hasn't been a grey 31 for a gala. Certainly nothing regular!
Think you'd struggle getting an MN down to Whitby as well......
Well whatever but I think the point remains that there is all sorts running about on it now that it would have have seen went it was part of the national network.
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Wrong kind of flamingos probably.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I like such challenges, so I will take up the baton and respond to your wishes.
Alton Towers is the theme park with the largest United Kingdom annual attendance of 2.7 million, considerably in excess of that achieved by Flamingoland.
The North Staffordshire Railway opened a railway station to serve that area on 13th July 1849, which stayed open until closure on 4th January 1965. I cannot recall many proposals to open a railway station to serve this particular theme park on that line which will also require some reinstatement on the Churnet Valley Line.
I believe it's an aspiration of the CVR to get to Alton Towers - but in reality it's many years away from even being likely - and it faces a couple of hurdles as well.
FWIW, my view is if the theme park wanted it - they'd be pushing for it now, the fact is they can get all of their visitors in through the gates using the existing infrastructure without having to support a rail reopening - same is probably true for Flamingoland.
I suspect that even if there were a rail link to AT, at the most it would only bring 10% of the visitors to the park - so 270,000, divide that over 27 weeks (as AT isn't open all year round) and by 7 and you're looking at about 1,500 people a day which isn't really that many and certainly not enough to warrant reinstatement economically.
As you say, the Flamingoland attracts fewer people, so the numbers are smaller still.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is Flamingoland only open from March to November ?
kylemore
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Nobody knows what tomorrow may bring. If it is a general assumption that once stretches of closed lines become heritage lines then they are forever lost to the national network then that is bad news.
What if....what if traffic on the West Highland grows and grows (under better management I know!) and the strategic national interest would be served by re-opening Dunblane to Crianlarich, but this can't be done because of a 4 steam trains a day private train set operation between Doune and Callander?
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