Can 17 year old be prosecuted for not paying penalty fare?

[Kayla7399]

Hello,

I have just received a penalty fare for £134 for my daughter. This is the first I’m hearing about this! My daughter is 17 and obviously received a penalty when she was caught, but must have thrown it away and didn’t mention it to me in the hopes it would go away.

I don’t have £134 to pay. The letter states ‘while we understand it is not your responsibility to pay, the amount outstanding is now £134’. I’ve been researching this and it looks like every one else has had a £20 fine increase to £40. I don’t understand why this is £134. The date is 17th November.

What will happen if we don’t pay?

 

[lrailadventure]

I’ve been researching this and it looks like every one else has had a £20 fine increase to £40. I don’t understand why this is £134. The date is 17th November.

Can't help with the advice side (there are lots of people on here with better advice than me), but just so you know the penalty fare increased to £100 plus the price of a single for most operators at the start of the year (Merseyrail following suit in July). It's half the price if paid within a certain time period, but as you have missed this it's gone up to £134.

But it'll help others of you can provide details as to what journey was made, and which operator has issued the penalty fare.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The baseline of Penalty fares used to be £40 reduced to £20 if paid within 21 days. Nowadays it is £100 reduced to £50 if paid with 21 days. That is on top of the unpaid fare, which in this case seems to be £34. Your daughter has broken the law and needs to learn from that. Her name and address as an offender are now known to the train company. You need to decide what lesson to teach your daughter. Should she ignore the law because she might get away with it, or should she save up her pocket money and pay the penalty? You can be sure that if she did the former, then if she came to the attention of the train company again after she is 18, she will be straight to the magistrates court, and be convicted of a crime.

 

[Haywain]

Sadly, not paying at the time means that the amount due has increased from £84 to £134. In addition, the ability to appeal the issue of the Penalty Fare and quite possibly have it quashed (with advice from here, on technicalities) has been lost. The lesson here is that things don't go away.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello,

I have just received a penalty fare for £134 for my daughter. This is the first I’m hearing about this! My daughter is 17 and obviously received a penalty when she was caught, but must have thrown it away and didn’t mention it to me in the hopes it would go away.

I don’t have £134 to pay. The letter states ‘while we understand it is not your responsibility to pay, the amount outstanding is now £134’. I’ve been researching this and it looks like every one else has had a £20 fine increase to £40. I don’t understand why this is £134. The date is 17th November.

What will happen if we don’t pay?

Sadly it is worth being aware that there are recent cases on here where by people not engaging with this and not paying the Penalty Fare it has escalated to much higher costs - I think - which ultimately are a lot more difficult to avoid it seems to me (I don't think these are like car parking penalties)

I fear the best advice is to find a way to pay the sum being demanded as quickly as possible. I know this is not easy when times are hard financially - but you don't want this escalating in a way that ends up costing more.

If people can just throw these Penalty Fares away and ignore them without risk of other penalty then I suspect we'd here a lot more about it on the forum, and we don't.

 

[Kayla7399]

The baseline of Penalty fares used to be £40 reduced to £20 if paid within 21 days. Nowadays it is £100 reduced to £50 if paid with 21 days. That is on top of the unpaid fare, which in this case seems to be £34. Your daughter has broken the law and needs to learn from that. Her name and address as an offender are now known to the train company. You need to decide what lesson to teach your daughter. Should she ignore the law because she might get away with it, or should she save up her pocket money and pay the penalty? You can be sure that if she did the former, then if she came to the attention of the train company again after she is 18, she will be straight to the magistrates court, and be convicted of a crime.

I would love to teach her about consequences, but the bottom line is that she doesn’t have any money and she doesn’t get pocket money because she refuses to help around the house. Regardless, pocket money would come from me and I wouldn’t be able to give her £134 of pocket money in 21 days. I simply don’t have it.

Sadly it is worth being aware that there are recent cases on here where by people not engaging with this and not paying the Penalty Fare it has escalated to much higher costs - which ultimately are a lot more difficult to avoid it seems to me (I don't think these are like car parking penalties)

I fear the best advice is to find a way to pay the sum being demanded as quickly as possible. I know this is not easy when times are hard financially - but you don't want this escalating in a way that ends up costing more.

Thank you, I appreciate your response. I guess what I need to know is whether things will escalate for me, or for her? Can I be taken to court for her penalty?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you, I appreciate your response. I guess what I need to know is whether things will escalate for me, or for her? Can I be taken to court for her penalty?

No, but in theory, she could be prosecuted in the magistrates’ court.

 

[transportphoto]

No, but in theory, she could be prosecuted in the magistrates’ court.

It’d be interesting to know which train company issued the penalty fare.

Legally it is possible for the seventeen year old to be taken to Magistrates; it may be against the operator’s policy to prosecute a minor.

 

[Kayla7399]

It’d be interesting to know which train company issued the penalty fare.

Legally it is possible for the seventeen year old to be taken to Magistrates; it may be against the operator’s policy to prosecute a minor.

It’s from Govia Thameslink Railway. The journey was from Luton to London St. Pancras

 

[MotCO]

Have you spoken to your daughter about this? Do you know if she was given a Penalty Fare or other documentation at the time of the incident?

 

[Kayla7399]

Have you spoken to your daughter about this? Do you know if she was given a Penalty Fare or other documentation at the time of the incident?

No, I just got the penalty this morning and she is in college until 4pm.

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s from Govia Thameslink Railway. The journey was from Luton to London St. Pancras

So if they opted to prosecute - it would be your daughter that was prosecuted I would think. She would be found guilty, get a criminal record of some sort, and a court fine and costs higher than the sum being asked for. The court can then use bailiffs, presumably - to try to enforce the debt (tho not sure how that works with a 17 year old)

The only way to aviod that once the threat of prosecution is started would be to engage in an effort to see if the railway company would agree to an out of court settlement - from what we see on here this would probably be c£150 plus the fare avoided. So more than the sum being asked for now.

The sum being asked for now is the 'least worst' option to resolve this problem I would think, now that the 'prompt payment discount' of £50 Penalty + the fare has been missed.

 

[spag23]

Has the daughter indicated exactly what she was accused of? Having no ticket? A ticket for a shorter journey? Wrongly claimed discount? Expired Railcard? And was it a one-off, or just the first time she was challenged? All of these factors may have a bearing on the company's position.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Bailiffs can enforce debt on a 17 year old if necessary. If they own little or nothing of value then it's likely to end up as a payment plan. Ultimately if they default that, they'd be off to prison (they'd be 18 by that point)
Obviously that's all extreme, but if you don't engage in the process it could happen.

 

[AlterEgo]

Bailiffs can enforce debt on a 17 year old if necessary. If they own little or nothing of value then it's likely to end up as a payment plan. Ultimately if they default that, they'd be off to prison (they'd be 18 by that point)

Only if it’s a court fine or something very special like unpaid taxes. You can’t go to prison for a civil debt, even if bailiffs get involved.

At the *moment* this is a penalty fare and is a civil debt.

 

[furlong]

The baseline of Penalty fares used to be £40 reduced to £20 if paid within 21 days.

You're making this up!

How long is it before your daughter turns 18? If she becomes 18 within 6 months of the incident then it's easier for the train company to enforce.

Do try to find out exactly what the problem with the ticket was - depending on the answer she might manage to negotiate a better resolution with them, for example paying in installments over a longer period or reinstating the lower £50 penalty despite the head-in-the-sand approach.

(Or if someone else gave your daughter's name, you can take a different approach.)

 

[Sheffcaster202]

You're making this up!

Wearnt TFL penalty fares of this nature previously?

National rail ones were £20 or twice the full single fare, whichever was greater

 

[island]

No, I just got the penalty this morning and she is in college until 4pm.

Penalty Fares aren’t issued by post, they can only be handed to the passenger at the time of travel.

What precisely have you received?

 

[cool110]

Wearnt TFL penalty fares of this nature previously?

Not quite, they've £50/25 from 2009 until 2012, then £80/40 since.

 

[furlong]

Not quite, they've £50/25 from 2009 until 2012, then £80/40 since.

(This thread is not about TfL.)

The first post suggests this was a notice of an outstanding penalty fare sent to parents/guardians, as enforcing these sorts of penalties is best done with parental co-operation, and for that reason the amount can be negotiable (better they get something than risk nothing). But it would be good to be sure.

 

[Hadders]

We could do with seeing a copy of the letter you've been sent (but do redact any personal details before uploading it). I suspect you might've been offered an out of court settlement rather than a Penalty Fare.

 

[gray1404]

I would be tempted to find out from my daughter exactly what happened. I would then respond to the train company thanking them for bringing the matter to my attention, ensuring them you had dealt with the matter as a parent and that's a reoccurrence will not take place. I would then enclose the amount payable in the rail fare in full and final settlement and state this.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would love to teach her about consequences, but the bottom line is that she doesn’t have any money and she doesn’t get pocket money because she refuses to help around the house. Regardless, pocket money would come from me and I wouldn’t be able to give her £134 of pocket money in 21 days. I simply don’t have it.


Thank you, I appreciate your response. I guess what I need to know is whether things will escalate for me, or for her? Can I be taken to court for her penalty?

I would give her two very stark choices:

1) she earns the money from you by doing chores etc.

2) she can be dealt with more harshly by the magistrates in court

If I were your daughter, I suspect I know what choice I would pick.... However, if you are pursued for the money, pay up now before costs escalate

 

[Essexman]

Someone I know is still paying off fines (court and penalty fares) from more than ten years ago. They get sold on to debt collecting agencies who add large charges. He’s had bailiffs round several times.

He thought he’d get away with it because he’d moved addresses several times after a period in prison but they found him and he owed about £10,000 in all.

So don’t let your daughter think it will go away. It will escalate if ignored.

 

[Haywain]

They get sold on to debt collecting agencies

I don't believe that's true of court fines.

 

[james_the_xv]

would give her two very stark choices:

1) she earns the money from you by doing chores etc.

2) she can be dealt with more harshly by the magistrates in court

If I were your daughter, I suspect I know what choice I would pick.... However, if you are pursued for the money, pay up now before costs escalate

I'd probably add a 3rd - Get a part time job. Many places hire at 16 for evening/weekend work. McDonalds or similar is perfect for fitting around studies/other commitments. Would also help with the teaching responsibility side (although this is bordering on parenting advice, which I'm not keen to be giving out given I'm not one!)

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don't believe that's true of court fines.

No. But I suspect High Court Enforcement officers have turned up, and were assumed to be bailiffs. High Court Enforcement are private companies working on behalf of the government, so I can see where the confusion arose. They also add fees on, albeit fees controlled by government. HCE also have more power than bailiffs.

 

[Haywain]

No. But I suspect High Court Enforcement officers have turned up, and were assumed to be bailiffs. High Court Enforcement are private companies working on behalf of the government, so I can see where the confusion arose. They also add fees on, albeit fees controlled by government. HCE also have more power than bailiffs.

No disagreement with anything you say, which backs up my point that court fines and costs, compensation etc do not get "sold on". The courts service are more than capable of collecting their own money, even if it involves the use of outside agents to do so.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Someone I know is still paying off fines (court and penalty fares) from more than ten years ago. They get sold on to debt collecting agencies who add large charges. He’s had bailiffs round several times.

He thought he’d get away with it because he’d moved addresses several times after a period in prison but they found him and he owed about £10,000 in all.

So don’t let your daughter think it will go away. It will escalate if ignored.

Pretty sure debts can only be sold to a third party if they are scheduled under the CCA.
Yes a third party debt collector can attempt to collect any debt in return for a tribute from the original creditor or which ever organisation is owed but I'm pretty sure it's only FCA/CCA scheduled accounts that can be sold. I've seen it a lot with people under the misconception that unpaid private parking charge notices have been sold, and they 100% cannot be sold. Hazard the parking company will enlist a debt collector who are also certificated bailiffs specifically for the reason that the first thing the debtor sees when they open the letter is a DCBL bailiffs Ltd header and they immediately c**p themselves and pay instantly, when in reality the letter is just a thretogram from a third party who has absolutely no legal powers to enforce anything.

Somebody else has touched about if a 17 year old can be civilly litigated. Yes and No.
It's largely down to whether the contract that's been breached is a contract of necessity or not as detailed under the 'sale of goods act'. Contracts of necessity only cover certain things like the purchase of food and clothing and certain other consumer products, accommodation and employment. If anything is deemed outside of a contract of necessity, then the contract in the eyes of the law is invalid. Sorry to bring up the private parking charge notices again (PCNs) but these are definitely NOT contracts of necessity and as such if a parking company attempted to take somebody to the county court who was under 18 at the time of the alleged contractual breach, then the judge would throw the claim straight out.