Can and will train seats become comfortable again?

[takno]

I avoid LNER because of this new ticket policy.

I mean that's what makes me unwilling to even consider first class on LNER. It's part of the same problem though - they seem to want to offer a hugely subsidized half-assed alternative to airlines, but the service isn't good enough to be competitive and they don't want to be cheap or pleasant enough to be a real public service.

The only thing worse is the sleeper. As a Scottish taxpayer I feel like I'm paying hand over fist for rich people to go to London on a service which you'd struggle to describe as comfortable. If we have that much spare cash (and the new even crazier tax bands suggest we don't) then they should pay for the rosyth-zeebrugge ferry to start again. Paying LNER and the sleeper to play trains with a random mix of plank seats and pointless double beds isn't a good use of my money.

 

[Benjwri]

The only thing worse is the sleeper. As a Scottish taxpayer I feel like I'm paying hand over fist for rich people to go to London on a service which you'd struggle to describe as comfortable. If we have that much spare cash (and the new even crazier tax bands suggest we don't) then they should pay for the rosyth-zeebrugge ferry to start again. Paying LNER and the sleeper to play trains with a random mix of plank seats and pointless double beds isn't a good use of my money.

Although of course your mentioned examples and alternatives here are mostly all talking about different tax pots which aren't transferable. By tax bands I assume you mean income tax, which is collected by NMRC but goes entirely to the Scottish Government. Therefore it is not subsidising LNER, as that is an English TOC subsidised by Westminster. Of course LNER is a poor example of this anyways because it is the closest to turning a profit, and does so in some periods, so the subsidy is relatively low. I think you also ignore that it provides an essential service to many not privileged enough to travel without the railway.

they seem to want to offer a hugely subsidized half-assed alternative to airlines, but the service isn't good enough to be competitive and they don't want to be cheap or pleasant enough to be a real public service.

To maybe play devils advocate a little, although it's still an important point, is this ticketing change not trying to be like the airlines? LNER is constantly critisised for not living up to airlines, through high prices and overcrowding. However when they try to fix this, through dynamic pricing in this trial, and compulsory reservations, they get criticised for attacking people's rights. The only solution to this is to spend more subsidy to artificially further lower ticket prices, buy more trains, have more staff, but you are also against that. So the question is how do you see the railway? Non existent? You seem to be against the only two directions possible to take?
Is your solution giving up caring for the climate and going back to unsustainable short haul flights?

I feel like I'm paying hand over fist for rich people to go to London on a service which you'd struggle to describe as comfortable

If it's so uncomfortable, so much more expensive than the plane and takes longer why are people taking it, and LNER trains constantly leaving full?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the south side of the Circle Line from Tower Hill to Gloucester Road is 24 trains per hour. At one point, this was achieved with three types of train (C, D and S stock), all driven manually and with the single leaf doors on the D stock.

Yes, but of course Thameslink needs much more capacious trains for a smaller number of passengers for some reason...

 

[43066]

I don't ever travel in standard on LNER or GWR - comfort or not I'm not willing to deal with days of back pain following the journey. That used to mean I'd upgrade to first, but now I largely fly instead. (GWR is generally part of a journey from further north)

Lumo and Pendo seats are uncomfortable but don't give me the crippling back pain. It depends on how I feel on the day, but I'd say that means I'm willing to pay a 15-20 quid premium to fly instead.

700 seats are needlessly unpleasant, but don't actively injure me, and the time saved by getting a direct train instead of switching to the underground across London makes it worthwhile.

Do you have any evidence that 8XX seats “actively injure” people, or cause “crippling back pain?” I think we would have heard about it by now…

I appreciate some don’t like the seats - although personally I prefer them to IC70s - but hyperbole like this makes it difficult to take your posts seriously.

I think the problem is less that people will rule it out altogether, and more that, thinking about previous journeys, it will feel easier and more natural for them to just go straight to BA/Easyjet instead, or to just rule out public transport and get in the car.

So why are LNER trains regularly full to bursting, then?

 

[takno]

Do you have any evidence that 8XX seats “actively injure” people, or cause “crippling back pain?” I think we would have heard about it by now

I have the evidence of my back. I don't especially care about anybody else's tbh.

 

[43066]

I have the evidence of my back. I don't especially care about anybody else's tbh.

So, to be clear, you’re saying you have actual medical evidence that you’ve been injured by 8XX seats?

Are you taking out a personal injury claim against the TOC concerned, then?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Are you taking out a personal injury claim against the TOC concerned, then?

I take it you'd be the last to complain if they changed the driver's seat to the same as a passenger one?

 

[uglymonkey]

Or have the driver stand up, like the steam loco drivers used to do ( And like Armstrong and Aldrin landing on the moon)

 

[coppercapped]

SNIP


So why are LNER trains regularly full to bursting, then?

Because they are so cheap?

 

[43066]

I take it you'd be the last to complain if they changed the driver's seat to the same as a passenger one?

Or have the driver stand up, like the steam loco drivers used to do ( And like Armstrong and Aldrin landing on the moon)

I’m confused by the above bizarre responses; this thread is about passenger seats, is it not? Passengers don’t tend to frequent driving cabs, so I fail to see the relevance of drivers’ seats, and what on earth do steam locos and moon landings have to do with what’s being discussed?!

I’m just interested to hear more about @takno ’s apparent claim to have been actively injured by 8XX seats.

Because they are so cheap?

 

[greyman42]

So why are LNER trains regularly full to bursting, then?

They are not all full to bursting. The weekends are very busy but Monday to Friday's are not as busy as pre-covid.

 

[43066]

They are not all full to bursting. The weekends are very busy but Monday to Friday's are not as busy as pre-covid.

Can you cite any stats to show they’re quieter Monday to Friday than pre Covid?

LNER (as of this time last year, and numbers will be up since) seemed to think Fridays and Sundays are their busiest days, claimed to have carried 1m more passengers in ‘22/‘23 than they did in ‘18/‘19, and we regularly read reports of severe overcrowding on here. That suggests they’re significantly busier overall.

The seats can’t be that bad!

A Record Two Years For LNER As It Continues To Welcome Back Customers

London North Eastern Railway (LNER) continues to lead the way when it comes to welcoming people back to rail, topping the table for franchised operators for two years running. LNER operates more than 160 daily services carrying millions of people across its 956-mile East Coast route.

www.lner.co.uk

Between January and March 2023, passenger journeys were at 111 per cent when compared with the same period for 2019, according to new data published today by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

For the quarter, LNER recorded 6.0 million passenger journeys, an increase of 22 per cent on the same period in 2022. Data shows that Fridays and Sundays are still proving to be the most popular days for people to travel as demand for leisure journeys continues to thrive. As a result of changing travel trends, LNER is looking to increase capacity on Sundays, with proposals for additional Sunday services on its London King’s Cross and Leeds route.

 

[Trainman40083]

The 700 seating is poor for anything other than short journeys, but at least it's very durable. They look as good as new still, whereas the IET seats aren't just uncomfortable, they aren't durable enough, with the metal bar poking through after a short time in service, so a double failing.

I'm sure on many of these more modern trains, the DfT had a hand in specifying the most economical seat...But what if that was part of the reason there were less passengers, because the car was more comfortable. We just seem to be going backwards with seat design.

 

[uglymonkey]

I think the Thameslink units were designed from the outset to have most of the space "open" so room for tons of standing folks Cheek by jowl, you were not going to get a seat logically in the morning crush, so it didn't matter how cosy they were ( or not)

 

[greyman42]

Can you cite any stats to show they’re quieter Monday to Friday than pre Covid?

LNER (as of this time last year, and numbers will be up since) seemed to think Fridays and Sundays are their busiest days, claimed to have carried 1m more passengers in ‘22/‘23 than they did in ‘18/‘19, and we regularly read reports of severe overcrowding on here. That suggests they’re significantly busier overall.

No i cannot site any stats but i accept the ones that you have. I speak from my own experiences of travelling on the ECML and only bother reserving seats on weekends. The early morning "business" trains into Kings Cross don't seem as busy as pre-covid and the late afternoon/ early evening services out of Kings Cross are certainly not as busy as you can easily get a seat without a reservation. Pre-covid these trains were often full and standing. I would say that Saturdays and Sundays are busier than pre-covid.

 

[43066]

No i cannot site any stats but i accept the ones that you have. I speak from my own experiences of travelling on the ECML and only bother reserving seats on weekends. The early morning "business" trains into Kings Cross don't seem as busy as pre-covid and the late afternoon/ early evening services out of Kings Cross are certainly not as busy as you can easily get a seat without a reservation. Pre-covid these trains were often full and standing. I would say that Saturdays and Sundays are busier than pre-covid.

It will likely be that the spread of demand is now more even throughout the day, with the traditional peaks less obvious than pre Covid. I accept some individual trains may be less busy, but it’s clear that overall numbers are up significantly compared with 2019, and overcrowding is still a problem, just at different times.

The same thing has happened at my operator - however I’m conscious we’re rapidly moving away from the topic of train seat comfort!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m just interested to hear more about @takno ’s apparent claim to have been actively injured by 8XX seats.

They may cause elevated DVT risk due to the way the metal bar pushes into the thigh where it has collapsed. The pressure on a very small part of the leg is not a good thing.

They certainly accentuate my post thrombotic syndrome.