Can I use Virgin Trains between Watford Junction and London Euston?

[KAO]

If I buy a zone 1 - 9 one day travelcard in London can I use it on a Virgin train from Euston to Watford Junction? Will the Virgin Trains guards at Euston accept it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, for two reasons:

1. Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it is "National Rail fares apply". You cannot use *any* train to Watford Junction using a 1-9 Travelcard, not even LO.

2. No passengers are carried from Euston to Watford Junction or vice versa on VT regardless of what ticket they have.

 

[Hadders]

This isn't allowed. Virgin are pick up only (northbound) and set down only (southbound) at Watford.

 

[matt_world2004]

You can use it as a split ticket however despite what virgin trains say.

 

[Railguy1]

No, for two reasons:

1. Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it is "National Rail fares apply". You cannot use *any* train to Watford Junction using a 1-9 Travelcard, not even LO.

You have to be a little careful because it depends whether you have a paper travelcard or an oyster travelcard. If you have the latter, if I'm not mistaken, you can use a travelcard to Watford Junction because the oyster card would then simply deduct an additional pay as you go fare.

Either way you cannot take a virgin train because its only for alighting (southbound trains to London) or boarding (northbound trains) - tickets are checked at Euston to enforce this I believe?

It seems you can also buy a travelcard with watford junction "added" on it:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/adult-fares-2018.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can use it as a split ticket however despite what virgin trains say.

Not from WFJ. VT do not carry passengers between London and Watford regardless of what ticket they hold.

 

[yorkie]

No, for two reasons:

1. Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it is "National Rail fares apply". You cannot use *any* train to Watford Junction using a 1-9 Travelcard, not even LO.

Not true.

A Watford High Street to Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 Travelcard is valid via Watford junction

2. No passengers are carried from Euston to Watford Junction or vice versa on VT regardless of what ticket they have.

Is the correct answer

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not true.

A Watford High Street to Zones 1-6 AAA 7-9 Travelcard is valid via Watford junction

On what basis? It is not usual to be able to use a Travelcard outside its Zones in any form; Permitted Routes and the likes don't really apply.

Does "also available at" create this bizarre quirk? Is it some kind of outboundary Travelcard which considers "7-9" to be a station for the one return journey in/out rather than just Zones?

 

[A Challenge]

Presumably Watford High Street to Z1-6 is valid via Watford Junction and then Bushey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably Watford High Street to Z1-6 is valid via Watford Junction and then Bushey?

That however is an outboundary Travelcard which obeys normal routeing rules until you enter the Zones.

 

[A Challenge]

Watford High Street to Bushey via Watford Junction is less than three miles in total, so on any journey along the then shortest route from Watford High Street after Bushey to the south is valid via Watford Junction (I think)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Watford High Street to Bushey via Watford Junction is less than three miles in total, so on any journey along the then shortest route from Watford High Street after Bushey to the south is valid via Watford Junction (I think)

On a regular ticket or outboundary Travelcard that may well be so, but I don't see why it would be true of a zonal Travelcard which does not work on Permitted Routes but simply staying within its boundaries...which don't include WFJ.

 

[A Challenge]

Disregarding the AAA 7-9, it is Watford High Street to Zone 6 (at Hatch End)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Disregarding the AAA 7-9, it is Watford High Street to Zone 6 (at Hatch End)

As in the ticket is an outboundary Travelcard just AAA 7-9? Yes, that would be valid, but that isn't a "Zone 1-9 Travelcard" in that sense; it's the "normal return ticket" bit that gives the validity, not the Travelcard bit. That's like saying a 1-6 Travelcard is valid at Milton Keynes Central just because there happens to be an outboundary one.

 

[A Challenge]

You could do it once though, though going via the DC lines to Watford first and on the way back the second time.

 

[bb21]

I agree with Bletchleyite. The Watford High Street Travelcard is inboundary, so rules for outboundary Travelcards in determining permitted routes to the zonal boundary do not apply as they are not appropriate.

The product is a Zones 1-9 Travelcard, not a return to the boundary station plus a Zones 1-6 Travelcard, otherwise it would only be valid to and back from the boundary station once, which is patently not the case here. Watford Junction is entirely outside the zones, so undoubtedly invalid.

 

[yorkie]

A watford high street Travelcard is valid. This isn't even contentious! All booking engines will offer it.

It is an outboundary Travelcard, as "in boundary" refers to Zones 1-6.

The relatively recent creation of Zones 7-9 (which don't have the same status as 1-6) does not invalidate the long-standing validity between Watford High Street and the Zone 6 boundary (Hatch End).

Clearly, travel via Watford Junction is permitted as the distance between the relevant stations is less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

The same principle of validity via WFJ applies to a combination of Travelcard & Boundary Zone x extension to Watford High Street, or a point to point ticket from anywhere south of Bushey (inclusive) to Watford High Street.

The idea that creation of additional zones - designed to add validity - should result in a loss of validity is, frankly, absurd. It's also a very anti customer viewpoint but it's factually wrong too.

 

[700007]

I saw once last year when there was disruption going on that was causing in excess of 45 minute delays that London Midland passengers at Watford Junction were told to board the Virgin Trains service that had just pulled in, as London Midland did not know how long it would take for the next southbound train to arrive and didn't want people left waiting.

Rare scenario and you could hope it happens again for the sake of traveling on a VT service from Watford to Euston. That was very good of the two TOCs giving each other a helping hand. If only we had things like that more often.

 

[matt_world2004]

Not from WFJ. VT do not carry passengers between London and Watford regardless of what ticket they hold.

You can use it as part of a split ticket for example zones 1-9 travelcard and a ticket from watford high street to bletchly.

 

[MikeWh]

You can use it as part of a split ticket for example zones 1-9 travelcard and a ticket from watford high street to bletchly.

That doesn't cover you between Bushey and Watford Junction. Watford High Street is NOT on the WCML.

 

[KAO]

Thanks for all your responses. I have to say the West Midlands one day travel card seems more straiightforward

 

[bb21]

A watford high street Travelcard is valid. This isn't even contentious! All booking engines will offer it.

Just because booking engines incorrectly interpret ticket validity, possibly due to incorrect spec, does not change the actual validity of a fare.

It isn't as if this is the first time it has happened either.

It is an outboundary Travelcard, as "in boundary" refers to Zones 1-6.

You are very much mistaken. Everything inside Zones 1-9 is inboundary. There is no outboundary product valid for one return journey between the origin and the boundary of Zone 6 plus unlimited travel within Zones 1-6 if the origin is within Zones 7-9. The product is a Zones 1-9 Travelcard valid in Zones 1-9 only as per validity of any zonal product.

This is a TfL product and priced by them, as these were introduced when Zones 7, 8 and 9 were simplified from the original Zones A-D on the Met, where Travelcards from stations beyond Zone 6 had always been fully zonal since the introduction of Travelcards. TfL do not price any outboundary product.

The idea that creation of additional zones - designed to add validity - should result in a loss of validity is, frankly, absurd. It's also a very anti customer viewpoint but it's factually wrong too.

The validity of the Zones 1-9 Travelcard is widely advertised and widely known. It is a fully zonal product with no need to trace permitted routes between the origin and the boundary of Zone 6, as the origin is already within the validity of the Travelcard part. Starting from an origin inside the zones you cannot travel outside the zones in order to claim a "permitted route" on a paper ticket between two inboundary stations. Would you claim Slade Green to Crayford is permitted via Dartford on a Zones 1-6 Travelcard because it is valid on a paper point-to-point ticket? It's a ludicrous claim.

Whether there is any loss of validity due to the creation of Zones 7-9 is a separate and totally irrelevant point to the validity of the fare itself. You need to ask TfL if they considered this point when they brought stations on Watford DC Lines within those zones. Whether it is an anti-customer viewpoint is also irrelevant, and may I say unhelpful even, in a discussion about facts. I don't care what my view is, and indeed what anyone's view is, on what should and should not be valid, because that frankly means nothing in a discussion about what is and is not valid.

I am sorry but I find it grossly irresponsible to suggest that the validity of the Zones 1-9 Travelcard extends to a station outside these zones. While it may be the case that anyone armed with such an incorrectly generated itinerary should see the itinerary honoured, it does not mean this fare is officially valid at Watford Junction. Such a suggestion could land an inexperienced customer in very serious trouble with a big financial penalty.

If you could find me any official documentation unrelated to journey planning specs confirming that a Zones 1-9 Travelcard is valid at any station (any will do) outside these zones then I will happily accept your interpretation.

 

[yorkie]

Booking engines are correct on this matter.

A Watford High Street to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard (AAA Zones 7-9) is valid via Watford Junction; a passenger travelling in accordance with an itinerary produced by a booking engine cannot be "in serious trouble"

The only relevance of financial penalties is that a financial penalty could apply to any rogue train company who refuses to honour a valid fare and/or travel itinerary. But not to a customer travelling in accordance with the rules.

 

[bb21]

On further examination of the Knowledgebase, I will concede the technical point that “inboundary” refers to Zones 1-6 only. It would appear I have mixed up the definition of “London zonal fares area” and “in/outboundary”. Travelcards from origins within Zones 7-9 fall within a special category of outboundary Travelcards.

Notwithstanding these technicalities, my other points still stand. It is a product priced by TfL. It is fully zonal where no map-tracing from the origin to the boundary of Zone 6 is required as per normal outboundary Travelcards where the origin is completely outside the zonal area, as all of the origins are entirely within the validity zones. Not only does it undermine the pricing of Travelcards from Watford Junction if they were otherwise valid there, it completely undermines the concept of a zonal product (Condition 13.3 of NRCoT) if the zonal validity could simply be ignored tracing permitted routes between two stations both inside the zones.

The Knowledge is also clear on the validity of Travelcards for Zones 7-9, in line with all other relevant publicity:

Including stations in Zones 7-9

Available for the following combinations and prices, tickets are valid for unlimited travel throughout the selected zones all day on the day of validity and 04:29 on the following day.

I have nothing further to add to this discussion. It remains my understanding that the implementation by journey planners is incorrect offering them for journeys via Watford Junction, and I strongly advise against using them at Watford Junction without arming oneself with such an itinerary and travelling accordingly. It now makes sense why such errors were possible, with it officially classed as outboundary and implemented incorrectly as per standard outboundary products, despite being a special category in itself.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[yorkie]

Would you claim Slade Green to Crayford is permitted via Dartford on a Zones 1-6 Travelcard because it is valid on a paper point-to-point ticket? It's a ludicrous claim

Slade Green to Crayford paper or PAYG single is valid via Dartford.

Slade Green to Crayford on a Zones 1-6 Travelcard is valid via Dartford if it's held on an Oyster card and PAYG credit is held on the card. It wouldn't be valid on a Zones 1-6 paper Travelcard (unless it was 'Also Available At: Zones 7-9')

Slade Green to Crayford are in-boundary locations though, so it's not the same thing.

The validity from Watford High Street to London Zones 1-6 is as I described above, for an outboundary Travelcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The validity from Watford High Street to London Zones 1-6 is as I described above, for an outboundary Travelcard.

For a point to point outboundary Travelcard, yes. The kind which are basically a combination of a CDR/SDR and the relevant Travelcard. Those act like a single/return ticket until you enter the Zones, and the journey you quote is clearly valid on a single or return ticket.

Not for a wholly zonal product, which is valid only within its Zones and Permitted Routes are irrelevant.

While nobody should be challenged for doing something an online itinerary says they can, I still believe this is not valid (and nor should it be unless WFJ is brought into Zone 9, which would arguably make sense).

 

[yorkie]

For a point to point outboundary Travelcard, yes. The kind which are basically a combination of a CDR/SDR and the relevant Travelcard. Those act like a single/return ticket until you enter the Zones, and the journey you quote is clearly valid on a single or return ticket.

Exactly; a Watford High Street to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard is exactly that. The only difference between this and any other outboundary Travelcard is the additional "also available at" validity. This does not impose a restriction.

Not for a wholly zonal product, which is valid only within its Zones and Permitted Routes are irrelevant.

You appear to be claiming that the additional "also available at" validity acts as a route restriction. This is not the case.

While nobody should be challenged for doing something an online itinerary says they can, I still believe this is not valid (and nor should it be unless WFJ is brought into Zone 9, which would arguably make sense).

It is valid, hence why it is offered by all booking engines.

It is irrelevant what zone Watford Junction is or isn't in!

What matters is that Watford Junction is on a permitted route between Watford High Street and Hatch End.

I don't understand why two people think that additional AAA validity can act as a route restriction; that clearly isn't what the rules say.

 

[bb21]

Two very important points:
(1) Constantly harping on about it does not make you correct; (Applies to you and to us. We can let everyone else decide for themselves.)
(2) You know as well as practically everyone on this forum that the product on sale is a Zones 1-9 Travelcard, fully zonal, not a Zones 1-6 Travelcard with a Watford High Street - Boundary Zone 6 return tagged on at the end. The AAA 7-9 annotation is simply a hack around the limitation that there is no R1289 destination in the original R-zone system. It is the equivalent of issuing the ticket as being Watford High Street to London Zones 1-9.

Your points re: validity on various ticketing modes between Slade Green and Crayford are all correct. That is not disputed. Similarly anyone with a Zones 1-9 Travelcard loaded on Oyster can travel via Watford Junction, on the premise that any suitable additional fare is automatically deducted, which happens to be zero cost if not exiting the gateline there. Single fares between Watford High Street and Hatch End are likewise valid.

I appreciate your concern that previously reasonable permitted routes from DC line stations may have been lost when they were harmonised into Zones 7-9 following Silverlink's demise, and Travelcard pricing became the responsibility of TfL, and would by and large agree with these concerns, but what is being retailed since then is completely different to what used to be retailed (which I suspect would have been traditional outboundary Travelcards priced by BR/Silverlink with only one return journey between origin and Hatch End being permitted and no validity in Zones A-D on the Met - but open to corrections) so they have completely different terms. The claim that AAA annotation cannot act as a route restriction is not at all relevant as comparison cannot be drawn between the two products, priced by different bodies and with completely different validity, especially given that the AAA annotation is a hack rather than an AAA in the traditional sense. It is quite possible journey planner specs were never updated to reflect this change hence now show incorrect itineraries for the new products. Any discussion on such concerns regarding the loss of routes would be best suited to a separate thread.

As I said before, we will have to agree to disagree. Travelcards including Zones 7-9 are a special category in themselves, separate from other outboundary products with a return journey tagged on outside the zonal validity. Just because the ticket is printed in the format of an ordinary outboundary Travelcard does not change the underlying product being sold. Clearly you have no intention of coming round to the understanding of Bletchleyite's and mine, and I suspect 99% of the general population, and vice versa, so I see little point of this dragging on. I remain of the view that it is irresponsible advising people a Zones 1-9 Travelcard is valid via Watford Junction (if held on paper).

I'm out.

Edit: Perhaps I'm not quite out of the discussion, in order to appease bnm.

 

[Starmill]

It is a product priced by TfL.

Even this isn't clear.

If you buy a Zones 1-9 Travelcard from London Underground it costs £13.50 (see MikeWH's site) but a Watford High Street to London Zones 1-6 Travelcard costs £13.60.

An 'in-boundary' Travelcard is one that is only valid within London Zones 1-6.

An 'out-boundary' Travelcard has the normal rules for validity between the origin and the boundary station. This applies to Watford High Street for travel via Watford Junction the same way it applies to a travelcard from Reading being valid via Feltham.

This is not even the first time the products have been different based on who sold them. If you buy a Watford Junction & London Zones 1-6 Travelcard from a TOC, it is only valid for one return journey between Watford Junction and the boundary. But if you buy a Zones 1-9 Plus Watford Junction Travelcard from London Underground, that's valid to go to Watford Junction and then back again, as many times as you like.

 

[bb21]

I would not attempt to guess the reasons behind the small discrepancy, as BRFares show a Travelcard from Watford Met or Amersham also priced at £13.60. Fares on the Met have been priced by LT/TfL for as long as they have existed.

As far as I know, all DC line stations are priced on the TfL fare scale with the only exception being Watford Junction.

I suspect that the situation with Watford Junction Travelcards is the result of poor implementation rather than it being two separate products. LUL machines AIUI are unable to sell Travelcards with an outboundary origin in the reverse direction, and there is no LUL machine at Watford Junction. I agree that an official clarification from RDG would be useful in respect of validity between Watford Junction and the boundary of Zone 9.

A Travelcard from Reading is very much different to a Travelcard from Watford High Street for all the reasons I had outlined in previous posts (principally not being inside any zonal validity and priced completely differently).