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can public transport ever recover from COVID-19

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trainophile

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I am still having my one or two night breaks every couple of weeks (Travelodge 2for1 offer or Premier Inn good deals, or the occasional cheapie B&B). Don't know what the outlook is for the three or four I've got booked between now and the beginning of December though. I'm being philosophical that I may only lose a couple of hundred £ unlike those who lost thousands when overseas holidays were scuppered.
 
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Andy Pacer

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I am still having my one or two night breaks every couple of weeks (Travelodge 2for1 offer or Premier Inn good deals, or the occasional cheapie B&B). Don't know what the outlook is for the three or four I've got booked between now and the beginning of December though. I'm being philosophical that I may only lose a couple of hundred £ unlike those who lost thousands when overseas holidays were scuppered.
Got to be an element of risk involved but as long as you're prepared for a potential loss then go with it. Otherwise its just boring as hell not doing anything which in my opinion is worse than the prospect of losing a few quid.
 

Bletchleyite

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Got to be an element of risk involved but as long as you're prepared for a potential loss then go with it. Otherwise its just boring as hell not doing anything which in my opinion is worse than the prospect of losing a few quid.

Not promotional prices, but with Travelodge it appears that the flexible rate is usually only a few quid more than the cheapo rate booked near-ish to the time (unlike Premier Inns where it's usually at least 20 quid more). So book flexible and have no worries, just cancel if you don't go.
 

Andy Pacer

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Not promotional prices, but with Travelodge it appears that the flexible rate is usually only a few quid more than the cheapo rate booked near-ish to the time (unlike Premier Inns where it's usually at least 20 quid more). So book flexible and have no worries, just cancel if you don't go.
Yes that's a really good point actually. Things I've been looking at doing have involved not relying so much on trains to get me where I want to go (and therefore not having to commit to buying tickets as much) and then of course rovers and stuff don't even need to be purchased until the day. For instance today I drove to Dronfield to do a South Pennines Day Ranger.
 

trainophile

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My Travelodge bookings were all on the offer posted about on this forum a while ago - Saver rate only, pay for one night and get another night free. Some of them were great value - we have two nights in Bournemouth coming up shortly that cost us £24.99. That's if we can go of course.
 

Andy Pacer

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My Travelodge bookings were all on the offer posted about on this forum a while ago - Saver rate only, pay for one night and get another night free. Some of them were great value - we have two nights in Bournemouth coming up shortly that cost us £24.99. That's if we can go of course.
Blimey that is good value, and worth the risk of losing it at that price (not trying to be negative)
 

trainophile

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It's ironic really, when they first let us go out and about again they were falling over themselves to offer encouragements. Last time we got vouchers for the cancelled bookings, but as this offer was on Saver rate only I doubt the same thing would apply.

I don't know who else follows "All this Stations" on Twitter but they reported getting six nights for £68 on that offer. Of course they would have to be three sets of two nights, but all the same. You can easily pay far more than than for one night in a half decent place.
 

Mikey C

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My Travelodge bookings were all on the offer posted about on this forum a while ago - Saver rate only, pay for one night and get another night free. Some of them were great value - we have two nights in Bournemouth coming up shortly that cost us £24.99. That's if we can go of course.
I'd have hoped that a "well ventilated" seaside resort would be low down the list of likely local lockdown towns!
 

C J Snarzell

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As another forum member has stated - rail travel has changed, probably forever.

Even when Covid19 is finally behind us, I reckon many people will still possess a caution about mixing in environments with large numbers of people.

Remote working is now likely to be a new concept, which will reduce commuter levels. Also social austerity means people and businesses will streamline their pockets and not spend money on expensive rail tickets.

The TOCs have a mammoth task ahead in weighing up their revenue which may come down to permanently reducing services and cutting back on future investments such as new trains or proposed expansions.

Only time will tell. I do think, passenger numbers will increase once this sorry state of affairs is behind us, but I doubt we will see the congested services of late 2019 again, when carriages resembled cattle trucks with people literally climbing across one another on certain services. TPEs Leeds to Manchester service is one that springs to mind.

CJ
 

squizzler

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It'll be years before we see growth again.

I fear that the railways have lost the peak commuters forever.
People feared for the rail freight industry when coal power was to be phased out. Arguably it is in stronger health than ever with a diverse and innovative array of services taking the place of what had been taken for granted.

I doubt we will see the congested services of late 2019 again, when carriages resembled cattle trucks with people literally climbing across one another on certain services.

Commuting - at least to service jobs in the big cities - is the sort of train travel that people love to hate, yet shapes many people’s idea of train travel.

Getting rid of that sort of operation will benefit both the railways image as a whole and - as others in here have already pointed out - be more rational in terms of asset management and operations.
 

richieb1971

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I work in I.T and companies have found in 2020 that you can get the same results with people working from home as you can with people commuting into the office. Lets face it most people who commute are doing keyboard related jobs. The internet seems to have replaced the train and doing a grand job of it to.

I find it hard to believe that Boris is putting so much investment in railways when nobody is using them and to my knowledge my company has no plans to bring everyone back into the office.


If that model fits most businesses where are the passengers coming from to fill the trains we have? With more railways and more trains being built it seems the biggest builds and ambitions have come at exactly the wrong time.


As a rail enthusiast I watch videos of people travelling on trains and the the seats are all empty. Some stations have more spotters on them than passengers.


What is your experiences? Do you commute on train? What are the numbers like on your commute train to work?
 

Mintona

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Plenty of people are still commuting. Nothing like the numbers of 2019, but a decent enough number that it’s still worth running the trains in many cases.

And the off peak seems as busy as ever, just without the sports fans. Once they are allowed back into stadiums and arenas I expect weekend travelling to shoot up ever further. If people are spending all week at home, they want to go out and do something at the weekend. The railway is doing a good job of attracting these passengers at the moment.
 

baz962

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I work in I.T and companies have found in 2020 that you can get the same results with people working from home as you can with people commuting into the office. Lets face it most people who commute are doing keyboard related jobs. The internet seems to have replaced the train and doing a grand job of it to.

I find it hard to believe that Boris is putting so much investment in railways when nobody is using them and to my knowledge my company has no plans to bring everyone back into the office.


If that model fits most businesses where are the passengers coming from to fill the trains we have? With more railways and more trains being built it seems the biggest builds and ambitions have come at exactly the wrong time.


As a rail enthusiast I watch videos of people travelling on trains and the the seats are all empty. Some stations have more spotters on them than passengers.


What is your experiences? Do you commute on train? What are the numbers like on your commute train to work?
There is at least one thread about how busy the train's are. I'm a driver on the London Overground and all throughout the lockdown , I was driving quite busy train's at some times of the day and some that were really quiet. Lately they have become hugely busy , with some train's struggling to get people on and this is at both traditional commuting time's and outside these time's. I was on one as a passenger at around ten pm one night and it was heaving. I personally commute to work on Thameslink services and although they are getting busier they are still quiet , compared to how they were.
 

theironroad

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London must be a different beast then.

The ORR report for Q1 released the other day and on a thread somewhere did mention that London and SE have had the lowest decline in passenger numbers nationwide, although deep decline everywhere.
 

Meerkat

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I work in I.T and companies have found in 2020 that you can get the same results with people working from home as you can with people commuting into the office. Lets face it most people who commute are doing keyboard related jobs. The internet seems to have replaced the train and doing a grand job of it to.

I find it hard to believe that Boris is putting so much investment in railways when nobody is using them and to my knowledge my company has no plans to bring everyone back into the office.


If that model fits most businesses where are the passengers coming from to fill the trains we have? With more railways and more trains being built it seems the biggest builds and ambitions have come at exactly the wrong time.


As a rail enthusiast I watch videos of people travelling on trains and the the seats are all empty. Some stations have more spotters on them than passengers.


What is your experiences? Do you commute on train? What are the numbers like on your commute train to work?
They have found that their current staff, who know each other and what they are doing, can work to a decent level from home. My doubt is how well it works over time as you need to train and integrate new people and the percentage who have never worked in the office increases - countering silos and building cross team co-operation is difficult enough inside an office, doing it when those involved have never really met the others......
Also managing someone WFH who you used to manage in an office is one thing, managing someone you have never spent any significant time with is a totally different thing.
 

Yew

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They have found that their current staff, who know each other and what they are doing, can work to a decent level from home. My doubt is how well it works over time as you need to train and integrate new people and the percentage who have never worked in the office increases - countering silos and building cross team co-operation is difficult enough inside an office, doing it when those involved have never really met the others......
Also managing someone WFH who you used to manage in an office is one thing, managing someone you have never spent any significant time with is a totally different thing.

Presumably this can be countered by having time in the office at suitable moments though. whenever a new team is spun up, or a new starter joins a little time in the office makes sense.
 

Meerkat

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Presumably this can be countered by having time in the office at suitable moments though. whenever a new team is spun up, or a new starter joins a little time in the office makes sense.
That’s only going to work if you have overlapping office periods with enough time for informal contact.
Who is the new starter going to be in the office with if everybody is happy WFH?
 

takno

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Presumably this can be countered by having time in the office at suitable moments though. whenever a new team is spun up, or a new starter joins a little time in the office makes sense.
I'm finding at the moment with a relatively new team that productivity is down about 20% on what I'd expect across the team. Half the team meets up a day a week in their office, and that seems to be nearly enough (another half day or day would be better), and the other half meets up every 2-3 weeks for a day in their office. The team which meets up less often is much less productive.

In terms of the management team we are meeting up for a couple of days every fortnight, even though that involves half the team travelling up the country. Any less than this is a significant drag on productivity. Ymmv, but occasional meetings aren't even nearly enough for us, and video calls are a hopelessly inadequate substitute, even though we use them a lot.

From a train point of view I don't see any long term changes in working patterns making that much difference. On average people will still commute 2-3 times a week, and will probably start to travel longer distances once freed up from having to apply for a job close to their house. Much of the country has supressed rush-hour demand anyway in the form of people who can't physically get on the trains, and are travelling instead by other modes of transport, or taking a different job, or switching their hours and cramming onto trains in the off-peak. Some very profitable lines might have to build up their off-peak traffic, some extra peak trains might disappear (likely improving reliability), and more trains may become tolerable to be on. None of the most loss-making routes will become even more loss-making, since they largely don't have commuter traffic anyway.
 

Peter Sarf

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(I have started this thread to get stuff away from the specifically 442 thread.)
Edit - mod moved my new thread to this thread which I had not spotted. Sorry if I am going over old ground - I am totally ignorant of the last 20 pages :oops:.

From 442 thread :-

There are three ways this could go.
1) Covid-19 means as many full length trains as possible need to be run. This assumes the cost of doing so is less than the cost to the economy of not social distancing on trains.
2) Covid-19 clears up (it eventually will) and all trains are full of people going back to work.
3) Covid-19 means the economy collapses and so less trains/carriages overall are needed. This could also be so if large numbers of workers have resorted permanently to working from home.

In the meantime probably best to work towards 1 followed by 2.

Most people I work with are looking forward to being back in their offices. The more manual workers have almost all been at work. So, barring an economic collapse, I expect the trains to fill up again.

As for Epsom. It is not the kind of place where manual workers live I think. So likely that a high proportion of the working age population there can easily work from home. Thus the temporary lack of frequent trains to London.

Now where have the quotes of the replies gone !.
 
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richieb1971

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My company doesnt even speak of going back to any sense of normality. Still got the worry of covid19 and we have just let people go so we are cut to the bone anyway. I doubt we would be hiring anytime soon.

All trains on MML and Ecml are running 12 car units and videos I've seen of the 700s which you can see the whole length seem rather empty. You could fit everyone in 1 car.
 

StephenHunter

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Some will work from home more permanently or at least a few days a week. Railways need to offer part-time season tickets. Also up their leisure game.
 

mike57

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My case: may or may not be typical.

I used to use the train 4-5 days per week for commuting and for longer journeys on business.

Post Covid I will still be working from home, and we have found ways to achieve things remotely which will mean that when things finally get back to normal I will probably be doing one longer journey maybe 3 times a month. Our company have found that a lot of us can work from home, they can downsize office accommodation, its already started as temporary buildings (portakabins) have gone, and we save time and money as well.

If this pattern is repeated in even 20% of cases then rail usage will drop significantly, also if the proportion of leisure journeys increases which are more price sensitive then the government may want to reconsider subsidies.

Turbulent times ahead I reckon.

I wouldn't even want to speculate if passenger numbers will ever reach pre covid levels again, I won't say never, but I reckon you could be talking decades not years.
 

The Ham

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I work in I.T and companies have found in 2020 that you can get the same results with people working from home as you can with people commuting into the office. Lets face it most people who commute are doing keyboard related jobs. The internet seems to have replaced the train and doing a grand job of it to.

I find it hard to believe that Boris is putting so much investment in railways when nobody is using them and to my knowledge my company has no plans to bring everyone back into the office.


If that model fits most businesses where are the passengers coming from to fill the trains we have? With more railways and more trains being built it seems the biggest builds and ambitions have come at exactly the wrong time.


As a rail enthusiast I watch videos of people travelling on trains and the the seats are all empty. Some stations have more spotters on them than passengers.


What is your experiences? Do you commute on train? What are the numbers like on your commute train to work?

I work in an office designing roads, my team of 6 all still wish to be in the office, I've got kids who would be around for some of time some days.

Another is married to a childminder, I needn't need to say any more.

Another is a graduate and is still learning so asks a lot of questions and needs a fair amount of guidance. They also live alone.

Two others don't have good office space.

We've all found that there's advantages of being in the office on terms of communication, not least being able to judge when it's a good time to ask a question (i.e. the person you wish to take to isn't busy, isn't in a meeting/on a call, etc.)

Whilst I would expect that we'll end up with some WFH it's not going to be the default situation.

Likewise I'd expect that there'll be some (probably easily 25%, but could be higher) of people who will have a similar preference. Whilst that's still going to leave a significant number who would like working from home I'd expect that would mostly be doing so about 2 or 3 days a week. That's still going to result in commuting levels of about 2/3 of what we saw before.

That's before you consider that a reduction in miles traveled site to WFH could also impact on car use, which on turn could change the economics of car ownership.

For some that could result in more occasional rail travel as well as some extra rail travel for getting to/from work.

Given that 80% of travel is by road a 1.25% shift from road to rail would result in an extra 10% (2019 values) uplift in miles traveled by rail.

Given that new car sales in September were very low (and it's worth remembering that restrictions weren't that bad at the beginning of the month with businesses being encouraged to reopen offices) it's not looking like that there's going to be a significant shift from rail to road use long term. In that probably the drop is mostly down to people WFH rather than driving to work.

Anyway, of there's a 15% drop in use overall then all that's going to mean is that we'll be back to 2015 levels of rail use. Whilst that may well take to 2030 to recover to 2019 levels it's not as bad as some suggest that it could be.

Even a 20% fall would only be back to 2012 levels.

Now whilst that seems a million miles from where we're at, given that we're at 40%, it should be noted that some big companies took the decision to say that everyone could work from home until the end of this year back in the late spring. Whilst others were planning on encouraging staff back to the office just before Boris said that people needed to work from home again.

Chances are a lot of those falls will be in London and the South East, rather than the rural lines which people fear might get cut if there's reductions in travel and they're not viable any more (such lines are unlikely to see much of a fall as they are less likely to be carrying many office based commuters).
 

Meerkat

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These assumptions for a drop in commuting assumes that the office space becomes empty, which assumes there is no suppressed demand.
It’s quite possible that more businesses will move into the centre of cities/towns as rents reduce and fill the space. If your labour pool want to WFH more and travel in from further away then being in the easiest place to reach from a huge area will be an asset, and the other agglomeration benefits will still hold true.
 

seagull

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From what I've seen since March, my prediction would be that commuting passenger levels will perhaps never be restored to what they were: the realisation for many companies that they don't actually need hordes of worker ants coming into offices each day that they think can do the same job equally well at home, may be with us permanently. The big 'but' is that many home workers are finding the novelty wearing off, distractions are greater, there's not the same sense of camaraderie as in a work environment, and some costs may well increase as each home worker needs their own equipment, rather than being able to share. So in the longer term, numbers will certainly increase, but not to pre-Covid levels.

On the other hand, leisure traffic seems to be increasing almost daily: and with the roads constantly gridlocked it won't take much for the trains to become more attractive again, despite the masks, which people appear to be getting more used to wearing. Already many trains during the day and at weekends are very healthily filled, even full and standing on occasion. Therefore rolling stock that would have once been used to maximise commuter train capacity, will now be seen out at weekends instead.

So the game has changed: the post-Covid railway needs to cater for and price for the leisure travellers as a much greater proportion of business, I would say.
 

Hadders

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The Government isn't going to continue writing blank cheques to the rail industry forever. If passenger numbers don't return then I expect there to be massive reductions in service levels.

I doubt we'll see complete line closures but the sort of things I fear we'll see are:

- massive reductions in the timetable. For example an hourly service will become every other hour
- This will free up rolling stock which will be cascaded to replace stock becoming life expired so no expect no new orders
- Later 1st services and earlier last services
- Reduction or removal of Sunday services
- Maintenance 'holidays'
- Cancellation of capacity enhancements although I expect big ticket items like HS2, MML electrification to go ahead
 
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