Can staff refuse to let you through a barrier when abandoning a journey?

[Peter0124]

I'm surprised in this instance that the ticket gate would not open at a connection station - unless it was a manual ticket check.

Its probably because it was an Advance. Still, he should have been let out in that circumstance.

 

[Fermiboson]

What if the passenger refuses to pay the excess fare necessary to leave the station?

Ticket irregularity report or taking details. There is no obligation for the passenger to pay anything, just that they leave their details; and indeed there cannot be, for that would be even more hilariously extortionate than the whole penalty fare/intent to prosecute etc system already is.

 

[Starmill]

Because it would mean someone could abandon their journey based on a two minute delay. I’m not saying many people would do that, but it feels daft that they could

Why?

In other words, I'm on a non-stop Kings Cross - Newcastle train (if there still are any) holding an advance ticket. It arrives about 20 minutes late, just after the Morpeth stopper has left. If my advance ticket is KIC - NEC then I can get a bit of delay repay. If my ticket is KIC - Manors (so I have missed my connection) I can "abandon" my journey (about 1 mile short) and claim the entire cost back. I cannot believe that is correct (or even morally right!). There is surely a difference between "cannot complete your journey [at all]" and "cannot complete your journey on time".
Unless I misunderstood completely - the comment I originally responded to was that you could abandon a journey (and claim a refund) if there was any delay.

Please in future could you use the correct station name or the official code with the station name given somewhere in the post. For London Kings Cross it's KGX and Newcastle it's NCL.

 

[Exrover]

The automatic ticket gates at Coventry never recognize tickets related to Kenilworth journeys. For example when I get a rail replacement bus from Kenilworth to Coventry they will not let me through to get the Euston train. The staff at Coventry never take your word for it either. They always make you demonstrate that the scanner will not read the ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if the passenger refuses to pay the excess fare necessary to leave the station?

Presumably a TIR would then be completed, and once done they can leave.

 

[Haywain]

Ring the police. You can't be held like that.

Are you calling 999?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The automatic ticket gates at Coventry never recognize tickets related to Kenilworth journeys. For example when I get a rail replacement bus from Kenilworth to Coventry they will not let me through to get the Euston train. The staff at Coventry never take your word for it either. They always make you demonstrate that the scanner will not read the ticket.

If it's an e-ticket it's so they can see it hasn't been refunded or faked and to ensure a scan is logged so you don't later refund it. Would be smoother if they had handheld scanners for that, though.

 

[sheff1]

How long does the delay need to be for an advance ticket to be accepted for exit at an intermediate station, on the basis that we accept that an advance ticket may not be used to exit when everything is running to plan?

"we" accept no such thing. In many cases the only way to complete the ticketed journey is to exit via the barriers at an intermediate station.

Here, we are discussing advamce tickets which are valid solely between the origin and destination shown on the ticket, and not at any intermediate station.

A ticket from Euston to Kenilworth is clearly valid at the intermediate station Coventry. If it wasn't then the journey couild not be made as that is where the passenger must change trains.

 

[reb0118]

KIC - NEC

Whilst I understood which stations you were referring to viz. London Kings Cross [KGX] & Newcastle [NCL] I was mildly intrigued to discover that neither of the shorthand forms you used returned a result for  any station.

Back on topic. It's actually not that easy to work a busy gateline and unfortunately one can become jaded with the amount of blatant fare avoidance discovered. This can sometimes translate into poor customer service if not nipped in the bud.

I've always found that staff members who regularly use the railway can be far more empathetic in situations like these Also, those who have a good geographical awareness & knowledge are generally more aware about the alternative transport options (be they rail or otherwise) - and can be flexible in allowing something that wouldn't normally be allowed.

Using discretion doesn't just mean automatically letting anything go but being able to question in a non accusatory manner and most importantly to listen (with further clarifying questions as required) to the passenger.

This case should have been so simple. Either by accepting what the OP said or by checking the timing of the affected train. Once that was established alternative options could be given with the passenger able to continue or abandon as required. Wherever possible minimise the inconvenience by minimising the delay.

 

[tspaul26]

There is surely a difference between "cannot complete your journey [at all]" and "cannot complete your journey on time".

If there is such a difference there is no mention of it in the NRCOT which is the relevant contractual instrument.

Unless I misunderstood completely - the comment I originally responded to was that you could abandon a journey (and claim a refund) if there was any delay.

The NRCOT contains no qualification on the right to abandon if there is a delay - no minimum delay is stipulated.

Because it would mean someone could abandon their journey based on a two minute delay. I’m not saying many people would do that, but it feels daft that they could

But there is nothing on the face of the NRCOT to prevent this.

It is not legal in any case to detain someone inside a train station for any reason, no? The staff may be entitled to issue a TIR or something (that would absolutely not stand once it was taken up with a human being), but surely the staff cannot simply turn around and leave. That isn’t just customer service issues, that is a safety-critical criminal offence.

There is a limited power to detain in order to ascertain name and address.

Yes, but presumably advance tickets on the services I mentioned follow a similar pricing strategy?

Not necessarily.

Back on topic. It's actually not that easy to work a busy gateline and unfortunately one can become jaded with the amount of blatant fare avoidance discovered. This can sometimes translate into poor customer service if not nipped in the bud.

The issue in this case is that - if the OP’s account is correct - the members of staff in question are veering out of ‘poor customer service’ and into potentially very serious criminal territory.

And false imprisonment is far worse than any fare evasion offence could be.

 

[Exrover]

One thing that the gateline staff did not take into account is the notorious unreliability of the Coventry to Kenilworth service. The operator seems to regard it as "optional". Having waited for the 8 pm train, by past history it was likely to be delayed or cancelled. So what then - would I be condemned to wait for 9 pm train?

 

[The exile]

You can certainly claim delay repay of 20 minutes on the Newcastle ticket, and longer than that on the Manors ticket. I wonder if anyone in the past has booked all their long distance Newcastle tickets to Manors to get more delay repay then they otherwise would - can change to the Metro at either station so may make some sort of sense for anyone on the Whitley Bay loop.

Indeed - but the post I was originally responding to stated that in the case of any delay you could “abandon” your journey and claim a full refund. Of course, sometimes booking to Manors (or similar situations elsewhere) might be counterproductive for delay repay. The mainline train is 16 minutes late but still achieves the minimum connection time!

Whilst I understood which stations you were referring to viz. London Kings Cross [KGX] & Newcastle [NCL] I was mildly intrigued to discover that neither of the shorthand forms you used returned a result for  any station.

Apologies - I thought they were the codes.

 

[Exrover]

This week replacement bus services have been in operation between Kenilworth and Coventry. On Wednesday evening having passed through the barrier I decided not to wait well over 40 minutes at Coventry for a bus and got an Uber home. Was I committing an offence?

 

[AdamWW]

Back on topic. It's actually not that easy to work a busy gateline and unfortunately one can become jaded with the amount of blatant fare avoidance discovered. This can sometimes translate into poor customer service if not nipped in the bud.

I've always found that staff members who regularly use the railway can be far more empathetic in situations like these Also, those who have a good geographical awareness & knowledge are generally more aware about the alternative transport options (be they rail or otherwise) - and can be flexible in allowing something that wouldn't normally be allowed.

Using discretion doesn't just mean automatically letting anything go but being able to question in a non accusatory manner and most importantly to listen (with further clarifying questions as required) to the passenger.

But no discretion is involved in deciding whether to let the passenger out or not. They unambiguously have the right to leave the station.

The discretion is whether or not to charge extra for the priviledge. And - even with no disruption - isn't the internal guidance NOT to charge unless there's reason to believe the passenger is deliberately trying to save money by stopping short on an advance?

 

[ianBR]

If I was being illegally imprisoned on a train station platform I would push the big red button on the panel to open all the gates

TOC’s should face prosecution themselves when they fail to use gates in the correct manner.

 

[GarethW]

In theory whats to stop the OP claiming the delay repay anyway as recompense towards the Uber cost?