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Carlisle - Newcastle services

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Iskra

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To be fair, I think that even if Manchester/Liverpool travelers were guaranteed to be able to change from their InterCity trains to a decent standard Regional DMU at Carlisle, the route would be a better alternative than it is currently.

I thought a 156 was a decent standard regional DMU. Ok, they aren't all 156's, but most are. That's luxury for Northern.

I'd take a 156/142 possibility over many longer Northern routes where a 150 or 144 is the best you can hope for.
 
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Jonny

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It should be an express route in my view, but assuming the Railbuses are going even some 150's as a replacement would be an improvement. and hopefully it would get some additional displaced 156's maybe even some 158's! so there ought to be at least some improvement, and also bearing in mind that retained units are supposed to get a major refurb.

There wouldn't be much point as is; the route is only rated for up to 75mph (or less?) so unless linespeed was significantly raised, it would be a waste of faster rolling stock.
 

47802

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There wouldn't be much point as is; the route is only rated for up to 75mph (or less?) so unless linespeed was significantly raised, it would be a waste of faster rolling stock.

Well all 156's would be an improvement, as for a waste of faster rolling stock there are plenty of services which don't really use the top speed of the rolling stock, but are offered as a better quality product, and how many services do you see where a 158 is paired up with a 75mph DMU
 
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yorksrob

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I thought a 156 was a decent standard regional DMU. Ok, they aren't all 156's, but most are. That's luxury for Northern.

It is. The 156's aren't the problem. The 142's are completely inadequate for the route and something else is requires instead of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There wouldn't be much point as is; the route is only rated for up to 75mph (or less?) so unless linespeed was significantly raised, it would be a waste of faster rolling stock.

It's not just about speed though, it's about capacity and level of comfort that the higher end 15x units offer.
 

Jonny

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Has it ever been an express route? As I don't think it's timetables have changed much since well before the end of BR times, so making it an express route would need a recast of west and east coast timetables too I guess

I don't ever recall it being other than Regional Railways (barring diverted InterCity services) or the local franchise, so it hasn't been express in terms of the Newcastle <> Carlisle services. With the current timetable, there is relatively little inter-working along the main lines so it is unlikely to be a significant issue. On the other hand it isn't completely self-contained, but that's mostly the Newcastle <> Hexham stoppers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is. The 156's aren't the problem. The 142's are completely inadequate for the route and something else is requires instead of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's not just about speed though, it's about capacity and level of comfort that the higher end 15x units offer.

The 156s are pretty good insides-wise but only reach 75mph. The priority for Class 158s has to be the routes where they can use their 90mph rating.
 

47802

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The 156s are pretty good insides-wise but only reach 75mph. The priority for Class 158s has to be the routes where they can use their 90mph rating.

There are plenty of services currently which don't really require 158 top speed and where they intermingle with 75mph DMU's so I don't see that as been that much of an issue.

Going forward it will depend on what the spec the new trains are and what cascaded stock they get as what routes the 158's might end up on.
 
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Tetchytyke

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When Northern first took over the service was upgraded and 158s were regular enough on the line. However Northern then changed their rolling stock policy and all the 158s were moved to Neville Hill. So now it's a mix of 156s and 142s. It certainly isn't "mostly" 156s, I'd say it was a roughly 50/50 split, excluding the trains operated with Scotrail stock.

Northern are better at doubling up the 142s than they used to be, especially on Sundays when Newcastle United are at home. Though the last time I went that way the guard, bless his soul, only unlocked one of the units so we had one full and standing unit and one empty one.

The 156s are fine for that line, really. The comfort of a 158 would be nicer, don't get me wrong, but the 156s are comfortable enough and a 158 would be wasted really. That said, the 158s are frequently wasted in Yorkshire...
 

SeanG

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I would like to see one of the Scotrail Scenic 156s creep onto the service in the future and see how it compares
 

Prudhoe

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Living in the Tyne Valley, we definitely need new trains. The latest rumours are that Northern will be getting new trains being built by Vivarail, at Long Marston, near Statford upon Avon. These are rebuilt former District Line underground D78 trains. They have bought 450 vehicles and the first one has already been converted. They will be made into two and three car sets, with different layouts for city, commuter or country layouts. They will be class 230s.

Photos of a mock-up show a destination of Huddersfield and the first trains are to be tested, after their own test track, on the Sheffield-Huddersfield line, run by Northern.

Regarding the Tyne Valley line, it's speed limit is generally 60 or 65 mph. Up to a year ago, the weekday service was mainly 156s on Newcastle-Carlisle services and 142s on Nunthorpe/Middlesbrough-Hexham, plus Metro shuttles. These latter ones work Metro Centre-Morpeth-Metro Centre-Newcastle-Metro Centre diagrams and so on.

During the last year, more 142s have come onto the line so it is difficult to forecast which types will be on which services. Apart from the Scotrail units, the ones guaranteed to be 156s are the two morning trains from Dumfries to Newcastle. These work in multiple from Carlisle-pl 8 to Dumfries (2LO2), then split and form 2N08 and 2N12 to Newcastle.

In the evening, there are two sets work from Newcastle to Whitehaven. The first is 2M34 which works throughout, then 2C33 back to Carlisle. It then works ecs to pl 8. The second is 2N47 Newcastle-Carlisle, where it stables for 40 minutes, before working 2C48 Carlisle-Whitehaven, 2C39 Whitehaven-Workington, then 5C39 ecs to Carlisle, where it continues to pl 8.

On Saturdays, most services on Newcastle to Carlisle services are 142s, whilst Sunday morning services often produce 142/156 combinations, possible because there are no Northern services to Morpeth, nor the stopping trains between Newcastle and Hexham.

A few years ago, 158s were trialled on the line but ceased after a short while, because Northern did not want to train Tyne Valley drivers on these units, as there were not that many to be based at Heaton. These can still be seen at Carlisle, working on the S&C, sometimes in multiple with a 153.

Something certainly has to be done about Northern units. The 142s have to go by 2020 because of disability issues and, with electrification schemes running late, there will be nothing else available. Having tried to take a wheelchair onto the existing units several times, it is a nightmare. Whilst the staff do their best, it is not easy. On a trip from the S&C, changing at Carlisle, the ramp slipped and my wife nearly fell out of the chair onto the platform.

The North is a dumping ground for old trains. A recent trip on the Tyne & Wear Metro with a wheelchair was also a nightmare. Despite them being refurbished, it was hard to get on board. On the first attempt, whilst trying to board, we had to turn the chair round by getting off onto the platform, turn it round, then get on backwards. Whilst we did that, the driver closed the doors and drove off. When the next train came in, we were at the front and the driver did get out to help us. However, it did not encourage us to make another trip.

Another problem in this area is that on New Years Day, we have no Northern Trains in Tyneside, Tees-side nor the Tyne Valley, yet every other passenger TOC outside of Scotland is working after about 10am, and Northern still work into Carlisle from S&C and Cumbria Coast.

We get a raw deal North of the "Northern Powerhouse" so these new trains may be a good idea, despite them being old. Certainly the plans shown on the Vivarail website look very good, so we will have to wait and see.
 

47802

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Living in the Tyne Valley, we definitely need new trains. The latest rumours are that Northern will be getting new trains being built by Vivarail, at Long Marston, near Statford upon Avon. These are rebuilt former District Line underground D78 trains. They have bought 450 vehicles and the first one has already been converted. They will be made into two and three car sets, with different layouts for city, commuter or country layouts. They will be class 230s.

.

I don't think people need another overview of D trains there's already a very long thread for that, In any case I believe its been confirmed by the Transport Minister that 'D' trains will not be used on Northern franchise at least as far as the proposed 120 New Build is concerned.

Whether the Tyne Valley get any new stock is anybody's guess, but with New Build and likely significant cascaded stock there will be majors changes to Northern's fleet and some probable shift around of the existing Sprinter fleet.
 
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glbotu

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How many diagrams run from Heaton? I would suggest the easiest thing would be to shove all the 156s there, so you don't have to train everyone on new stock. There are, however, 42 of them, so that might be too much? Perhaps it might be worth having something faster around to pick up the Morpeth services on the 110 mph stretches of ECML, which might improve capacity there?
 

tbtc

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I think that enthusiasts sometimes fall into the trap of treating Carlisle like it’s a much bigger place than it actually is – because it’s got a big station, because it’s a junction, because it’s a long way from anywhere else of size.

In reality, it’s around seventy five thousand people. Not a hamlet, but nothing like as big as all the talk on this thread would suggest. I’d put the Newcastle – Carlisle line (west of Hexham) on a par with the Leeds – Lancaster line (west of Skipton).

Compare and contrast:

  • Newcastle to Carlisle (currently an hourly service run by 142s and 156s)
  • Carlisle has a population of seventy five thousand
  • Biggest intermediate place is Hexham (pop twelve thousand)
  • Will be increased to half hourly in the next couple of years

  • Newcastle to Middlesbrough (currently an hourly service run by 142s and 156s)
  • Middlesbrough has a population of one hundred and seventy five thousand
  • Biggest intermediate places are Sunderland (pop one hundred and seventy five thousand) and Hartlepool (pop ninety thousand)
  • No commitments to increasing the service

...I don’t think the Carlisle line is doing terribly. If there are enhancements, then I’d focus east of Hexham, since that’s where the commuter market is (e.g. I’d extend a Newcastle – Metro Centre shuttle each hour up the Tyne Valley to Hexham, rather than extend a Newcastle – Hexham service to Carlisle).

But for all the talk of “strategic trans-pennine link”, I’d throw any extra resources on the much more populated corridor from Newcastle to Middlesbrough. Maybe not as scenic, but much more underserved.
 

DarloRich

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But for all the talk of “strategic trans-pennine link”, I’d throw any extra resources on the much more populated corridor from Newcastle to Middlesbrough. Maybe not as scenic, but much more underserved.

Or on one of the other transpennine lines between Leeds and Manchester? ;)

I would love to support investment in this line as it is lovely especially near Gilsland and it is northern but it would be a waste of resources.

With a choice i would put the money into Newcastle-Sunderland- Middlesbrough/Darlington
 

Tetchytyke

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Newcastle to Sunderland has the Metro every 12-15 minutes.

Currently the fastest way from Newcastle to Middlesbrough is via Darlington, and improving connections at Darlington (e.g. going 3tph Darlington-Middlesbrough) is probably the best way of improving Tyne-Tees links. I'm not convinced there's the market for Middlesbrough and Hartlepool to Sunderland- it used to be 2tph Newcastle-Hartlepool but the second train was cut back to Sunderland by Arriva as not enough people used it.

The Carlisle line is fine for what it is, I think 2tph is a bit of overkill for the line, unless you were going to make one train Carlisle-Hexham-MetroCentre-Newcastle and have the other one as all stations (and reopen Gilsland whilst you're at it). Judging by the loadings on the buses both Wetheral and Haydon Bridge could easily support an hourly train service.

But I'd agree that improving services in Middlesbrough and Redcar would be a much better spend.
 

backontrack

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The Carlisle line is fine for what it is, I think 2tph is a bit of overkill for the line, unless you were going to make one train Carlisle-Hexham-MetroCentre-Newcastle and have the other one as all stations (and reopen Gilsland whilst you're at it).

This is basically the case, although the faster train will also call at Prudhoe and Haltwhistle.
 

backontrack

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Well, if there is (it seems like there is), then would it be worth enhancing the service between Carlisle and Haltwhistle/Hexham? Obviously you have a problem in the distance between Brampton and its station (a mile) but it could work. It wouldn't really be a Carlisle Crossrail project - however cool that sounds - but linking places together through it by adding a minimal amount of extra services sounds good for me. You'd have trains from Whitehaven/St Bees/Sellafield, from Appleby/Kirkby Stephen, from Hexham/Haltwhistle and from Dumfries/Annan all running into Carlisle, and maybe crossing it and continuing on another of the four lines. A bit like Invernet. I think a service like that would be useful at peak times, and would free up units. 2tph Carlisle-Newcastle does sound a bit over the top, maybe 3tp2h is enough. Then again, maybe it isn't.
 
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Stats

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...I don’t think the Carlisle line is doing terribly. If there are enhancements, then I’d focus east of Hexham, since that’s where the commuter market is (e.g. I’d extend a Newcastle – Metro Centre shuttle each hour up the Tyne Valley to Hexham, rather than extend a Newcastle – Hexham service to Carlisle).
In order to provide the additional Carlisle service the MetroCentre shuttle is being axed. In fact, the requirement in the new franchise is to halve the service to the MetroCentre - 2tph compared with 4tph today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is basically the case, although the faster train will also call at Prudhoe and Haltwhistle.

Prudhoe, yes, but not Haltwhistle.
 

backontrack

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Really?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wow, just checked, and it would seem so. If the Alston railway ever makes it beyond Slaggyford to Haltwhistle, however, things might change back again...
 

sprinterguy

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I don't ever recall it being other than Regional Railways (barring diverted InterCity services) or the local franchise, so it hasn't been express in terms of the Newcastle <> Carlisle services. With the current timetable, there is relatively little inter-working along the main lines so it is unlikely to be a significant issue. On the other hand it isn't completely self-contained, but that's mostly the Newcastle <> Hexham stoppers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The 156s are pretty good insides-wise but only reach 75mph. The priority for Class 158s has to be the routes where they can use their 90mph rating.
The Tyne Valley line was, in fact, earmarked to receive it's own batch of class 158 units when they were being ordered, with the allocation subsequently dropped along with a number of other more "marginal" Regional Railways routes as a cost saving measure by Gordon Pettitt, in response to the economic downturn at the time. So the idea of their regular use over the route (rather than Heaton occasionally chucking out a unit in Northern Spirit/ATN days and their more predictable but still intermittent use in the early days of Northern) isn't so far fetched.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How many diagrams run from Heaton? I would suggest the easiest thing would be to shove all the 156s there, so you don't have to train everyone on new stock. There are, however, 42 of them, so that might be too much? Perhaps it might be worth having something faster around to pick up the Morpeth services on the 110 mph stretches of ECML, which might improve capacity there?
Solely within the north east, Heaton's diagrams account for around 25 units (with a little bit of variation for those few services that are doubled up): This is split roughly 50/50 between the 142 and 156 fleets. Half of Heaton's 142 diagrams (accounting for the rest of those units) actually operate in Yorkshire, as Neville Hill has no 142 allocation of its' own since Northern implemented its "Centres of Excellence" programme.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In order to provide the additional Carlisle service the MetroCentre shuttle is being axed. In fact, the requirement in the new franchise is to halve the service to the MetroCentre - 2tph compared with 4tph today.
That's a bit of a worry, as although it is only a short journey, some of those two trains an hour will be very busy between Newcastle and the Metrocentre, particularly at weekends and during school holidays.

Prudhoe, yes, but not Haltwhistle.
That's surprising, but adds further credence to the clear argument that most of the passenger traffic on the Tyne Valley line is weighted around travel to and from Newcastle from stations eastwards from Hexham inclusive.
 
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Altfish

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Could the Metrocentre not be reached by an extension to the T&W Metro, perhaps using (for part of its route) the line on the north side of the Tyne that was abandoned in the 70s(?)
 

sprinterguy

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Newcastle to Sunderland has the Metro every 12-15 minutes.
Which is, of course, no use to those living south of Sunderland who wish to reach Newcastle: From travelling on these trains, it is evident that there is a healthy demand for train travel between Stockton/Hartlepool and Newcastle. Enough, at least, to fill an hourly Pacer, during the off peak, before it reaches Sunderland, and that despite the slow journey times, poor rolling stock and infrequent service. How much more popular could it be if the Durham coast route was offered a better quality service?

I've argued before that the Durham Coast route south of Sunderland has in fact been hamstrung by the Sunderland Metro extension, with the squeeze on paths north from Sunderland seriously limiting any prospects for improved services over the full route.

For the limited amount of time that it actually operated before it was pulled, Arriva Trains Northerns' extension of a second train an hour as far south as Hartlepool seemed a token gesture at most, and not enough for the increased frequency to have proven, or otherwise, its viability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could the Metrocentre not be reached by an extension to the T&W Metro, perhaps using (for part of its route) the line on the north side of the Tyne that was abandoned in the 70s(?)
If you're happy to wait ten years (at least), then yes, maybe. ;) With the refurbishment of the current Metro fleet, which is basically stretched to its limits maintaining the service over the current network, only just completed, and the "All Change" modernisation programme still in progress, there's little hope of sighting route extensions to the network on the horizon. There would also be the rather expensive issue of providing a suitable river crossing.
 
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backontrack

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With some refinement, my Carlisle 'Crossrail' idea might work...

It would operate as two separate services, or, maybe like the Northern Line of the LU, the different bits would alternate from different places. Whatever happens, the service wouldn't be too intensive, because it would only really operate during peaks using whatever units are freed up by electrification (probably none now the 323s are going :X). Services would run:

Dumfries to Kirkby Stephen calling at Annan, Gretna Green, Carlisle, Armathwaite, Lazonby and Kirkoswald, Langwathby and Appleby
Hexham to Whitehaven calling at Haydon Bridge, Bardon Mill, Haltwhistle, Gilsland Hadrians Wall, Brampton, Wetheral, Carlisle, Dalston, Wigton, Aspatria, Maryport, Flimby, Workington, Harrington, Parton and Whitehaven, possibly extending through to Corkickle or even St Bees. Parton would be a request stop; none of the other stations would.

One thing that does annoy me is where Northern's priorities lie. If Carlisle to Newcastle can be 2tph, why can't Carlisle to Whitehaven even be 1tph and clockface?
 

Anvil1984

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With some refinement, my Carlisle 'Crossrail' idea might work...

It would operate as two separate services, or, maybe like the Northern Line of the LU, the different bits would alternate from different places. Whatever happens, the service wouldn't be too intensive, because it would only really operate during peaks using whatever units are freed up by electrification (probably none now the 323s are going :X). Services would run:

Dumfries to Kirkby Stephen calling at Annan, Gretna Green, Carlisle, Armathwaite, Lazonby and Kirkoswald, Langwathby and Appleby
Hexham to Whitehaven calling at Haydon Bridge, Bardon Mill, Haltwhistle, Gilsland Hadrians Wall, Brampton, Wetheral, Carlisle, Dalston, Wigton, Aspatria, Maryport, Flimby, Workington, Harrington, Parton and Whitehaven, possibly extending through to Corkickle or even St Bees. Parton would be a request stop; none of the other stations would.

One thing that does annoy me is where Northern's priorities lie. If Carlisle to Newcastle can be 2tph, why can't Carlisle to Whitehaven even be 1tph and clockface?

Don't think that would work especially the latter.. Whilst it looks good on paper stations west of Hexham to / from Carlisle will only see low single digit numbers of passengers.
The Cumbrian Coast isn't clock face because it's more complex with services that extend to Barrow and Preston with single line track on some of those routes,at present there's Loco Hauled trains with inferior acceleration so that has to be taken into account too

Monday to Friday's the Newcastle to Metrocentre shorts are a waste of time. They only exist to keep the unit out of the way after doing a Morpeth to Metrocentre and before doing a Metrocentre Morpeth. It would be better served with a Nunthorpe to Carlisle and a Morpeth - Carlisle and an additional Newcastle to Metrocentre shuttle on a Saturday only
 

Stats

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It would be better served with a Nunthorpe to Carlisle and a Morpeth - Carlisle and an additional Newcastle to Metrocentre shuttle on a Saturday only
That appears to be what it will be. The Metrocentre shuttle is specified on Saturdays.
 

Paul Duck

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Really hope its not Carlisle-Nunthorpe for time keeping sake. A point of concern already for coastliners rail usrr group. Any service with delay just from Hexham to Nunthorpe is terminated at Middlesbrough, which I can understand why to protect return working. But running a pacer all the way from Carlisle again as in Arriva days, Please don't!
Hopefully Teesside will have a direct train to metrocentre at least as the amount of traffic is good, even if it was kept on Saturdays only.
 

Anvil1984

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Really hope its not Carlisle-Nunthorpe for time keeping sake. A point of concern already for coastliners rail usrr group. Any service with delay just from Hexham to Nunthorpe is terminated at Middlesbrough, which I can understand why to protect return working. But running a pacer all the way from Carlisle again as in Arriva days, Please don't!
Hopefully Teesside will have a direct train to metrocentre at least as the amount of traffic is good, even if it was kept on Saturdays only.

There is a requirement Monday to Friday for 9 trains from Sunderland to call at the Metrocentre according to the spreadsheet (same requirement as from Morpeth) there is no need for any service Monday to Friday to terminate at Metrocentre it is just a waste of a unit so it will have to go to Carlisle
 

bramling

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Really hope its not Carlisle-Nunthorpe for time keeping sake. A point of concern already for coastliners rail usrr group. Any service with delay just from Hexham to Nunthorpe is terminated at Middlesbrough, which I can understand why to protect return working. But running a pacer all the way from Carlisle again as in Arriva days, Please don't!
Hopefully Teesside will have a direct train to metrocentre at least as the amount of traffic is good, even if it was kept on Saturdays only.

It amazes me how people will sit on a train for over an hour just to visit Metrocentre, and then leave with nothing more than Primark bags. I've never been, but what's *so* special about Metrocentre that seemingly most of the north-east and north-west wants to go there at weekends and in school holidays? It's not like there's a shortage of interesting day out opportunities in the area.
 

Altfish

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It amazes me how people will sit on a train for over an hour just to visit Metrocentre, and then leave with nothing more than Primark bags. I've never been, but what's *so* special about Metrocentre that seemingly most of the north-east and north-west wants to go there at weekends and in school holidays? It's not like there's a shortage of interesting day out opportunities in the area.

Never heard of "Retail Therapy"? It's not for me but....
 
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