Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[43066]

I was under the impression it would record speed, and so would obviously show the acceleration and braking curves, but nothing else as the cab is inactive.

Leading end OTMR shows AWS warnings and our reactions to them. The rear AWS is effectively switched off when the cab isn't in us

That sounds right!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Quite. This is a tragic incident that on initial observations seems to have had a number of elements of "bad luck" (unlike Watford), but these sort of landslip events are going to - and to some extent have already - become more likely as our climate in the UK changes.

Definitely more within recent years I agree...Sadly...

 

[Swanny200]

The BBC are reporting in their Live News Feed Updates that the Train Guard was also among one of those to have died. A very sad time for the Railways and thoughts to all those involved in this tragic event.

It is the BBC though, all day they have been off the mark, The HST was a locomotive and 4 carriages, all the carriages went down the embankment, they still can't make up their mind if the train was going north or south and recently claimed that the last rail crash which involved a passenger losing their life was Ufton Nervet, the journalistic standard of the supposed Gold Standard of News output in the UK has spiralled recently

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The BBC report has been rubbished already several times. The photos from the scene quite clearly show the train on the "right" road.

The BBC's "rolling coverage" on the incident has included a number of obvious errors, some of which have been corrected by later updates but the original mistakes remain. This includes a summary of the last major accidents in the UK but even that is poorly worded, suggesting that three trains were involved at Great Heck rather than two.

 

[de525ma]

Isn't any diesel carrying train likely to catch fire after a derailment? Is a DMU with engines under each carriage less susceptible to this?

 

[the sniper]

I would think things like better CCTV view of the tracks in all places

Think, how would that work.

Given the train caught fire I think it could mean changes or a more speedy withdrawal of the HST stock.

Far better to have a fuel tank under every carriage instead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't any diesel carrying train likely to catch fire after a derailment? Is a DMU with engines under each carriage less susceptible to this?

More susceptible, I'd think.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Isn't any diesel carrying train likely to catch fire after a derailment? Is a DMU with engines under each carriage less susceptible to this?

Diesel is far less flammable than petrol in normal circumstances, but becomes explosive when released under high pressure as a vapour (such as when a tank is ruptured under a heavy impact). I seem to remember that this was a significant factor at Ladbroke Grove.

 

[rebmcr]

Isn't any diesel carrying train likely to catch fire after a derailment? Is a DMU with engines under each carriage less susceptible to this?

Diesel trains catch fire fairly regularly, even when not derailed. They have very capable suppression systems, but an incident like this is probably outside their scope.

 

[Horizon22]

Isn't any diesel carrying train likely to catch fire after a derailment? Is a DMU with engines under each carriage less susceptible to this?

Not unless there's a suitable "spark" with pressure. This happened at Ladbroke Grove when the impact of the crash ruptured fuel tanks and ignited on contact with the overhead wires.

 

[Jozhua]

Personally:

Car - 2
Bicycle - about 4 (including one very serious one that very nearly killed me)
Bus - 1 (I bet most haven't! Wasn't serious but gave me a bit of whiplash for a week or two)
Train - 0
Air - 0 (and I've flown a lot more than most)

I suspect motorcycling would come up as the most dangerous, and I would probably do that if I wanted to, I don't find it attractive for various reasons, but not saying that won't change!

Car - 0 (I don't drive or travel by car much. Maybe once per week on average, usually for trips of 2-3 miles. A few very near misses though.)
Bicycle - 2 (One of which sent me to A&E, other didn't but had pulping potential.)
Train - 0 (I was on board a 319 when the OHLE exploded though.)
Plane - 0

 

[MarkyT]

The BBC report has been rubbished already several times. The photos from the scene quite clearly show the train on the "right" road.

A possibility is that single line working was in operation initially, and the train was going up (southbound) along the down (northbound) line to get around engineering work, then encountered a new obstacle on the down line whereupon it was agreed to reverse back to the last crossover to regain the up line.

 

[Irascible]

With respect to automatic GSM-R panic calls

I wonder in future whether there could be some sort of upgrade where a radio could do this...Must be a possibility...

The issue isn't being able to do it - if there's a working radio with a panic button on the train then it's capable - it'd be when to do it. While I don't know details of how much a modern train monitors itself ( I suspect a lot ) there will ( probably ) be enough parameters to satisfy any justification for an auto panic call, like "I'm no longer upright" or "part of me is detached" or even "I experienced a critical rate of deceleration". On a HST or something else not fully computerised/self aware that is a very very big mod though.

From a systems design point of view anyway. The practicalities of interfacing a GSM-R set to a TMS are something else.

 

[si404]

This place is a hell of a lot better informed than the media.

And this is a very important reason to have this thread and continued informed postings on it.

 

[py_megapixel]

I severely hope this doesn't have too much of negative public-relations impact on the railway.
In particular, I hope the awful far right tabloids don't use it as an excuse to put down trains, or public transport as a whole.

While I feel for those who have been severely impacted by this, it's important to note that these accidents are rare, and all I can hope for now is that this will never happen again.

Sadly, it's hard to see with the current information what could have been done to prevent it. I imagine the RAIB will tell us that in due course, however.

 

[py_megapixel]

This place is a hell of a lot better informed than the media.

And this is a very important reason to have this thread and continued informed postings on it.

Indeed.

There's also an important cultural difference. The media like to present whatever they can find as fact. Here, I've found that people accept that what they say could be wrong, and are willing to be corrected.

 

[hst43102]

First of all, my thoughts and prayers go to everyone involved in this unspeakably awful tragedy - especially the families of the people who lost their lives, the emergency workers and railway staff involved.

Given the train caught fire I think it could mean changes or a more speedy withdrawal of the HST stock.

BBC is reporting

Six people have been taken to hospital, although their injuries are not believed to be serious.

The very fact that anyone survived a disaster like this - especially with non-major injuries - is a testament to the excellent build quality of the HST's. An accident like this could have potentially been much worse if it had been a different type of train.

 

[Megafuss]

Am I write to assume that as it had to turn around due to problems ahead, the train in question ended up being the first Northbound train of the day over the section of track in question?

 

[Scotrail314209]

Am I write to assume that as it had to turn around due to problems ahead, the train in question ended up being the first Northbound train of the day over the section of track in question?

No. There was a 158 (2B13) from Montrose to Inverurie before it.

 

[rebmcr]

Am I write to assume that as it had to turn around due to problems ahead, the train in question ended up being the first Northbound train of the day over the section of track in question?

No, reported upthread, a Class 158 passed uneventfully just 5 minutes prior.

 

[High Dyke]

BBC news at one saying 3 of the 4 passenger coaches left the track and went down an embankment. Which is absolutely not what photos are showing, so they got that wrong.

No surprise there when it comes to an un-informed journalist trying to report something they have little understanding of.

One outlet is now reporting one coach being submerged with occupants unaccounted for. It's hard to get a grasp on anything at the moment.

Typical confusing media. They prefer to speculate on what they think they know rather than what they actually know.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Such a tragic event, thoughts go out to all those involved, especially the families of the 3 fatalities.

From elsewhere in the BBC reporting:
"A rail industry source has confirmed that the 0638 Aberdeen to Glasgow service was heading south when it derailed.

It is thought that the train initially came across a landslip and the driver stopped and contacted control to ask permission to reverse.

It’s believed the driver reversed the train to a set of points and switched to a different set of tracks, which was clear.

The train then apparently continued on its route towards Glasgow before it possibly hit another landslide and derailed."

Which suggests 2 reversals, wrong road heading north back to the crossover, then wrong road heading south.

The BBC's claim is flawed by the fact that the site of the derailment is further north than the original land slide / flood. Additionally the aerial photos and videos of the train after the incident show that it was heading north on the down line.

A possibility is that single working was in operation initially, and the train was going up (southbound) along the down (northbound) line to get around engineering work, then encountered a new obstacle on the down line whereupon it was agreed to reverse back to the last crossover to regain the up line.

Although we won't know for sure until the enquire this seems most plausible.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think this forum is also a very valuable community support group for those within the industry who want to discuss matters anonymously.

No. There was a 158 (2B13) from Montrose to Inverurie before it.

I imagine those working / travelling on 2B13 will be thanking their lucky stars right now. With the aluminium bodies, a class 158 has never really been tested in a high energy accident (bar a few fairly low speed collisions) and the results could have been pretty bad as well.

 

[edwin_m]

They can't, of course. The only changes could be site-specific strengthening or drastically-reduced network-wide speed limits. The latter will be impractical and will not have a business case based on the present rate of fatalities from this cause (if assumptions are correct, of course).

Usually when something like a landslip occurs on the railway, it is spotted before it becomes a life-and-death situation (Lamington viaduct on the WCML for example). Unfortunately this morning circumstances combined with tragic effects. Meanwhile it seems like almost every "named storm" results in either a tragedy or a near miss with trees falling onto cars. When that happens, nobody calls for the banning of cars or widespread chopping of trees near to roads.

There are places where remote sensors are installed that will send an alarm in the event of any movement of an earthwork. I'm not sure how many or whether this is one of them. However if, as suggested, another train passed a few minutes before, then it's unlikely there was anything noticeably amiss then or the other driver would have raised the alarm (via GSM-R or if no reception by using the hazard lights). So even if something had slipped just after the previous train and been instantly detected, it's questionable whether any warning could have been got to the HST in time to stop it.

 

[Graeme]

The BBC's "rolling coverage" on the incident has included a number of obvious errors, some of which have been corrected by later updates but the original mistakes remain. This includes a summary of the last major accidents in the UK but even that is poorly worded, suggesting that three trains were involved at Great Heck rather than two.

I'm sure the transport correspondent on tonight's Radio 4 PM mentioned something about the driver of the HST "looking for a different track" after encountering the first landslip.

The BBC doesn't appear to care much about accurate reporting any more. The original reports about carriages going down the embankment may have terrified people who were waiting for news about their relatives, not that the correct situation was really any better given that three people had died in this tragedy.

 

[USRailFan]

There are places where remote sensors are installed that will send an alarm in the event of any movement of an earthwork. I'm not sure how many or whether this is one of them. However if, as suggested, another train passed a few minutes before, then it's unlikely there was anything noticeably amiss then or the other driver would have stopped and the HST wouldn't have been able to proceed into the section. So even if something had slipped just after the previous train and been instantly detected, it's unlikely any warning could have been got to the HST in time to stop it.

Yup, we have those here in Norway to warn against snow avalanches. They can never work 100% but have avoided a few accidents.

 

[High Dyke]

I thought the Scottish FM and MP who were just interviewed on BBC News were appropriate and restrained in their comments, although plenty of reference to the severe weather which is techically speculative but understandable under the circumstances.

Indeed, fair credit to the local MP. I commented it was one of the few times when 'fence sitting' is actually beneficial in the context of an evolving incident. The chap concerned was correct not to speculate, unlike the mainstream media, but stated there would be a time for questions to be asked, in due course.

 

[High Dyke]

Top of the 3 o'clock news and Sky News just repeated that there were 6 passengers and 6 staff on board.
Clearly they've not been keeping up with developments.

They need to read this thread again.

 

[Swanny200]

I think this forum is also a very valuable community support group for those within the industry who want to discuss matters anonymously.



I imagine those working / travelling on 2B13 will be thanking their lucky stars right now. With the aluminium bodies, a class 158 has never really been tested in a high energy accident (bar a few fairly low speed collisions) and the results could have been pretty bad as well.

There is all types of stock that could have hit that, an LNER train or a sleeper with more carriages, as you said a 158 all would have been pretty bad, it isn't just the strength of the carriage, being flung upside down or rolling down an embankment with no way of stopping yourself would still do damage to your body regardless of how much damage to the carriage there is.

 

[Ianigsy]

I think it would be premature to lock the thread while members might still want to pay their respects, particularly when the train crew were doing their level best to get their passengers back to safety.

But it looks like a horrible set of circumstances nevertheless. As others have said, six months ago that probably would have been a healthily laden business train nicely timed to get you into Glasgow for a 10am meeting.