• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

carriage destination boards

Status
Not open for further replies.

RSC Friends

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2011
Messages
28
Location
Newton Abbot, Devon
Hi,
Newton Abbot Museum has two carriage roof destination boards. I am writing a description for them.
Could someone tell me, please, where would they been kept -on the station platform or somewhere in the yard? Who would have been responsible for putting the boards on the carriage roof and how were they fixed?

I know they were painted at Swindon in their No 12 Paint Shop and that the picture found on line actually shows the one we have - Paddington Torquay Paignton, being finished.
Thanks
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,022
Whilst I cannot speak for Great Western practice, I remember that elsewhere, the boards were stored perpendicularly in boxes on the platform, and affixed to the carriage on to brackets above the windows.

They were fixed/removed at the terminal stations, because the return working of the stock may have been as another service.

I don't know whose responsibility it was to fix/remove them - possibly the station inspector or a delegated porter. In those days, there were more staff around on the platforms than now!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,978
Location
Nottingham
Were there different legends for each direction - Paignton Torquay Paddington as well as Paddington Torquay Paignton? If so were the boards reversible to show the return journey or did they have to be stored somewhere on board the train to be returned to the start point? Or did they show Paddington Torquay Paignton on one side and Paignton Torquay Paddington on the other, so "Paddington" was always on the London end?

Some of the Western's non-aircon Mk2s were fitted with brackets for smaller metal boards at waist level, as used on the continent. As an occasional traveller from age 10 in the mid-70s I think I may have seen the brackets but don't remember seeing the boards in use.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,830
Location
Devon
Were there different legends for each direction - Paignton Torquay Paddington as well as Paddington Torquay Paignton? If so were the boards reversible to show the return journey or did they have to be stored somewhere on board the train to be returned to the start point? Or did they show Paddington Torquay Paignton on one side and Paignton Torquay Paddington on the other, so "Paddington" was always on the London end?

Some of the Western's non-aircon Mk2s were fitted with brackets for smaller metal boards at waist level, as used on the continent. As an occasional traveller from age 10 in the mid-70s I think I may have seen the brackets but don't remember seeing the boards in use.

This photograph by RW Carroll shows some kind of board on the side of the mk1 behind the loco, is that the kind of thing you mean Edwin m? I've never actually seen one in the flesh, they were a few years before my time. It says it was the 11:00 from Waterloo (1971).
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1477.JPG
    IMG_1477.JPG
    64.5 KB · Views: 53

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,075
Location
Stockport
This photograph by RW Carroll shows some kind of board on the side of the mk1 behind the loco, is that the kind of thing you mean Edwin m? I've never actually seen one in the flesh, they were a few years before my time. It says it was the 11:00 from Waterloo (1971).

I'm not fully certain, but I think these waist level brackets for the small square destination boards may have started life on the XP64 stock, I've found pictures of blue/grey livered western region mk1s so fitted (like your picture) dating from 1968 onwards, up to around the early 70s and as edwin mentions early mk2 stock although they do seem to have vanished by around 1972ish onwards. Surprised to see that one on a Waterloo service as I thought they were only used on WR services to/from Paddington.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,830
Location
Devon
I'm not fully certain, but I think these waist level brackets for the small square destination boards may have started life on the XP64 stock, I've found pictures of blue/grey livered western region mk1s so fitted (like your picture) dating from 1968 onwards, up to around the early 70s and as edwin mentions early mk2 stock although they do seem to have vanished by around 1972ish onwards. Surprised to see that one on a Waterloo service as I thought they were only used on WR services to/from Paddington.

I was surprised too, but judging by the 1V11 headcode and the direction it's facing it must have come down the Waterloo route. I wondered if it was because the locos and stock were supplied/operated by the WR maybe?
I didn't realise mk2s had them as well, but I think I remember seeing them in a picture on the XP64 stock.
Do you have any photos of them in use Mr Bridge? I know that you may have been lurking in the general vicinity around then. :)
 

Martin66

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2016
Messages
105
Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
Is this what you mean?
pr_mkl-destbd.jpg


Looks like it slots into the brackets.

(photo from Southern E-Group)
 
Last edited:

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,075
Location
Stockport
I was surprised too, but judging by the 1V11 headcode and the direction it's facing it must have come down the Waterloo route. I wondered if it was because the locos and stock were supplied/operated by the WR maybe?
I didn't realise mk2s had them as well, but I think I remember seeing them in a picture on the XP64 stock.
Do you have any photos of them in use Mr Bridge? I know that you may have been lurking in the general vicinity around then. :)

Don't know what you're insinuating there Mr Cowley :p;) actually I think they might just predate my railway picture taking days as I can't recall seeing them in use in the flesh, having looked through some of my older books (Bradford Barton Publications) I have found some pictures of them in use on mk2a stock behind Class 52 hauled Penzance-Paddingtons in Cornwall 1970/71ish, if I do find a slide in my collection I'll scan it for you.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,136
Inevitably, I remember these smaller bodyside boards coming through Taunton on WR expresses. I think they came in the mid-late 1960s, for a few years.

When we later moved from Somerset to The Wirral, the big high long boards had generally disappeared, but just one was still in use there. One of the dmu cars in the 50924-35 series which exclusively ran the line from Bidston down to Wrexham had such a board above its windows, proclaiming "This is the 1,000th diesel car built at Derby Works".

I was surprised too, but judging by the 1V11 headcode and the direction it's facing it must have come down the Waterloo route. I wondered if it was because the locos and stock were supplied/operated by the WR maybe?
Indeed they were. The Southern got rid of steam heating entirely with the end of steam locos; their only main line locos were the Class 33 which were always only electric heat, or electric locos. As the Warships were steam heat only, their coaching stock was all supplied by the WR during their regime, until they in turn were supplanted by Class 33 in the 1970s, when it all had to be changed over to electric heat stock.
 
Last edited:

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,075
Location
Stockport
Inevitably, I remember these smaller bodyside boards coming through Taunton on WR expresses. I think they came in the mid-late 1960s, for a few years.

When we later moved from Somerset to The Wirral, the big high long boards had generally disappeared, but just one was still in use there. One of the dmu cars in the 50924-35 series which exclusively ran the line from Bidston down to Wrexham had such a board above its windows, proclaiming "This is the 1,000th diesel car built at Derby Works".


Indeed they were. The Southern got rid of steam heating entirely with the end of steam locos; their only main line locos were the Class 33 which were always only electric heat, or electric locos. As the Warships were steam heat only, their coaching stock was all supplied by the WR during their regime, until they in turn were supplanted by Class 33 in the 1970s, when it all had to be changed over to electric heat stock.

Thanks for this, I forgot to acknowledge Mr Cowley's suggestion about the WR providing the stock for the Waterloo to West of England services during the latter years of Warship operation, which I think ended at the beginning of October 1971.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,830
Location
Devon
Interesting stuff. Thanks to Taunton for filling in some knowledge gaps too.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,830
Location
Devon
This is the older type the OP was referring to. I appear to have introduced a diversion by mentioning the later type.

To be fair you just set the diversion up, it was me that raced off down it ;)
Back to the original subject and to the OP - Is the board in brown and cream, or maroon with gold writing? I don't think you said.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,099
Location
Reading
Hi,
Newton Abbot Museum has two carriage roof destination boards. I am writing a description for them.
Could someone tell me, please, where would they been kept -on the station platform or somewhere in the yard? Who would have been responsible for putting the boards on the carriage roof and how were they fixed?

I know they were painted at Swindon in their No 12 Paint Shop and that the picture found on line actually shows the one we have - Paddington Torquay Paignton, being finished.
Thanks

A series of articles has recently been published in the Great Western Railway Journal published by Cygnet Magazines on this topic. Issue 100 (Autumn 2016) has the second article on this topic, as the magazine is published quarterly I suspect the Summer 2016 issue has the first part! You may find this a useful source of information.
 

RSC Friends

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2011
Messages
28
Location
Newton Abbot, Devon
Interesting rapportage between you all and some useful photographs which can help my description.
The board on show in the Museum is cream with brown lettering and a brown edge. The reverse is white with unusual green lettering for University of somewhere... I'll look at it again tomorrow. The other board is not on display so I will investigae and get back to you tomorrow evening.
Thanks to all so far.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,136
Interesting rapportage between you all ... The board on show in the Museum is cream with brown lettering and a brown edge. The reverse is white with unusual green lettering for University of somewhere...
We haven't really addressed your question very much, just gone off on our own tangents. I'm afraid we're a bit like that !

The BR carriage livery from 1950 was red and cream, and these long boards were done in the same colours. In 1956 the standard livery changed to allover maroon red, and the boards were now done maroon, with yellow lettering. However, the Western Region was "permitted" to paint it's named trains (only) in the traditional GWR chocolate and cream, with destination boards painted to match. There was great keen-ness among former GWR staff about this, and apart from the established named trains a whole series of new ones were invented, typically one, the best of the day, on every main route. I bet the painter at Swindon still had plenty of cream and brown paint left over from the old days. Now we know your board is brown/cream we can say it is from the Torbay Express, which was a daily service from London Paddington to Paignton/Kingswear.

Boards were difficult to change, as you can imagine, and normally left in situ. They were put on/off in the carriage depot using the carriage cleaners' staging and a couple of staff. You can't really get them up from platform level without equipment. The small clips at either end to drop then into were standard features on all the main line rolling stock of the era. The reverse was normally plain brown, so if the coaches were to be used on a different service they could just be reversed, although the same specially painted vehicles normally stayed on the service long term.. It looks like someone has made use of the blank side of yours for some later purpose.

The chocolate-and-cream express coaches only made one journey a day, returning next day, so two train sets were required for the daily service, passing en route. This was felt uneconomic in the Beeching era, so it was determined to end the special livery and make all trains have the maroon livery, and they could cover multiple services all day. So in 1963 this livery was abandoned. Although it took years to repaint them all, the dedicated coloured boards were given up pretty straight away. However the Western Region didn't want to let them go altogether, so they moved on to the waist-level small boards described above, which could be changed by platform staff. These lasted to about 1970.

It just occurs as I write, but the reverse side is not the University of Exeter, is it? Not only local to you, but the University had a railway society who in the 1960s-70s used to charter a full train at the start and end of term to Paddington, and sell tickets for it to students all around the university. They more than once wrote an article about it in the rail magazines of the time. I wonder if someone from there managed to get hold of one or more of these boards when they were no longer in use, and painted them up for their special train.

Given that your board is from the Torbay Express chocolate-and-cream era, I very likely used to see it pass me in my youth when I spent school holidays etc watching the trains pass at Taunton. The Down Torbay used to pass at lunchtime, it would hammer through at about 80mph with those distinctively coloured vehicles, quite nicely cleaned I recall. So I'm glad that some little bit of what I used to see long ago has found a good home.

Meanwhile, move on a few years and by 1966 we had moved away from Somerset to the north of England. However, we took a family summer holiday to Cornwall using the Motorail service, along with our car, that ran from Newton-le-Willows to Newton Abbot. You'll find one or two mentions of this trip by me elsewhere here. Now at Newton Abbot, on the return, there was a railway relics shop in those times at the north end of the Up main platform, which (of course) we visited when our car had been loaded while waiting for the return trip. There I obtained several things like old single line tokens, which I still have. But in there, taking up much of the space, were a number of those big high level destination boards. Now how could I get those, being about 15 feet long, home? I suggested we could place them on the car transporter wagon alongside the car :) Alas no, so they were left there. I do wonder if nobody else managed to buy them either, and it's the same ones that have ended up in your museum in the town.
 
Last edited:

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,160
Location
Airedale
Am I right in thinking that the brown on yellow style on WR was restricted to named trains while other services carried yellow on brown (which is what I remember from an early 60s spotting visit to Paddington)?

Another query - trying to identify the service these boards were used on - wouldn't the Torbay Express boards have carried the train name (and had Kingswear for the destination in most cases)? That would have been true on other regions.

I'm just wondering if these boards were generic ones for strengthening vehicles (the WR being keen on image for its best trains). Or was there a change in naming style?
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,075
Location
Stockport
That's a very interesting posting Taunton, I'm sure you've addressed everything the OP wanted to learn there, you are of course absolutely correct what you say in the first line and I think Iam one of the worst for this :oops: anyway perhaps you could tell us about the Motorail experience in more detail sometime as I for one would find that most interesting, oops, There I go again!
 
Last edited:

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,136
If I remember correctly (long time ago) alternate carriages carried different boards. Or maybe there were two boards per carriage. One would be "The Torbay Express" and the next "Paddington - Torquay - Paignton" or similar.

I think the brown on cream boards were used on the named expresses in the matching livery, while the rest of the day's services in maroon livery had yellow on maroon boards, as on the rest of BR (Southern excepted, inevitably).

It didn't strike me that the boards were all made at Swindon instead of locally, but that was fairly typical. Many items were distributed from there. There was a dedicated train of old vans, the "Stores Train", which used to set off weekly from Swindon, likely on a Monday morning, and spend days roaming all the various depots on the WR, carrying all the supplies that had been indented for (by telegram) over the previous week. No just nipping down to Travis Perkins for them. It took back everything surplus or for repair, and in a longwinded way could be used to move things from one depot to another. Doubtless this is how the boards made it to the train's base, probably London Old Oak Common in this case, and how they were eventually sent down to that shop at Newton Abbot.

Here's a photo of a "wrong" board (Paddington - Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Chester - Birkenhead), a chocolate & cream FK vehicle with a yellow-on-maroon board. Probably taken after the special colours were abandoned, looking at the maroon vehicles each side. No chocolate & cream named express ever made it to Birkenhead. By all the ventilators being wide open, it was a hot day.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/longsheds/15485374905/
 
Last edited:

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,160
Location
Airedale
If I remember correctly (long time ago) alternate carriages carried different boards. Or maybe there were two boards per carriage. One would be "The Torbay Express" and the next "Paddington - Torquay - Paignton" or similar.

Thanks, that makes sense.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,160
Location
Airedale
On some pre Mkl stock the roof boards were mounted above the cantrail.

Pretty much all pre-war stock IIRC. Certainly on the SR Bullied stock was the first to have the cantrail-height roof boards.

Going OT again, digging for this thread has reminded me of the short destination boards carried slightly lower down, usually on brake-end carriages - I remember these on CEP/BEP emus in the early 60s, but they were common across the SR (preceded - so photos show - by larger boards with 4-5 lines on). Very useful, given the amount of SR portion working.
 
Last edited:

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,164
This is going away from the thread a bit, but I'm certain I can remember the Weymouth Boat trains carrying roof mounted boards in the 1960s/70s - even when in blue/grey with a mix of Mk1 and Mk2 coaches
Did any other Mk2 sets carry them?
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,160
Location
Airedale
This is going away from the thread a bit, but I'm certain I can remember the Weymouth Boat trains carrying roof mounted boards in the 1960s/70s - even when in blue/grey with a mix of Mk1 and Mk2 coaches
Did any other Mk2 sets carry them?

Certainly in the SR green era - WATERLOO WEYMOUTH CHANNEL ISLANDS (IIRC) - and I have vague recollection of white on blue cantrail boards with lower case lettering. But that may have beenough Southampton boat trains. Mk 1 stock only.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,978
Location
Nottingham
Were these ever used on 25kV routes? I can imagine there would be a hazard if someone slipped up while lifting one up/down and one end of it went towards the OLE (especially if wet).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top