Cashless bus services.

[Haywain]

With buses, if someone doesn't tap on but taps off or doesn't tap off but taps on it makes sense just to charge them from the start/to the end of the route accordingly. Keeps it simple, and indeed means people leaving at the terminus (or who knows their fare is the maximum) don't need to tap off. No need to have complexity like unresolved journeys with buses because the worst you could have done is ride the full route.

I'm not convinced that Stagecoach would cope with that - last week I used a couple of their services in Lancashire and even with an ENCTS pass the drivers insisted on knowing my destination (one even issued a ticket!).

 

[philthetube]

All Lancs operators do this, presumably to do with the entcs payment system used.

 

[johncrossley]

The implementation of tap in tap out on Ticketer machines is far from optimal. You can only tap out when the bus is approaching a stop, and there is only one tap off reader. Compare that to other parts of the world where tap in tap out operates. In the Netherlands, for example, they allow you to tap out at any time so you can save yourself time by tapping out just after the last stop. In fact, the name of the next stop is shown on the reader which gives you comfort that you are tapping out at the right time. There are also multiple tap out readers. The UK implementation is also hindered by the use of single door buses. In the Netherlands, they can tap out while passengers are tapping in.

 

[Edvid]

How does NCT cope with the outer fares?

All contactless Tap & Go journeys are £3. For £2 short journeys you request a City Hop / Clifton Hop ticket from the driver (fares changed just a few days ago).

 

[johnnychips]

The implementation of tap in tap out on Ticketer machines is far from optimal. You can only tap out when the bus is approaching a stop, and there is only one tap off reader.

I’ve started using tap-on tap-off quite a bit on First Doncaster recently. Apart from having to move schoolchildren out of the way, I would estimate conservatively that it doesn’t work one out of ten times. You can tap off on the driver’s machine though, thus blocking people getting on the bus.

 

[cool110]

All Lancs operators do this, presumably to do with the entcs payment system used.

Depends on if they have any singles below the price cap. Preston Bus don't, so their machines just accept passes without any destination selection.

 

[Haywain]

All Lancs operators do this, presumably to do with the entcs payment system used.

That's not been my experience elsewhere in Lancashire.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The point isn't to make it convinient to you. It's that the beancounters have noticed how much more the cash processing cost over the card fees and want to save stagecoach some money.

There are very few banks left for bus companies (or any other business) to pay cash into. That is the reality!

 

[PeterC]

Presumably you don't need mandatory tap off if you have a maximum single fare such as the £3. It is only those paying who want a lower fare or something more complex who need tap out. The rest are all charged £3.

GoAhead seem to handle this quite well.

On the 300 park and ride in Oxford I failed to touch out at Redbridge and was not only charged the fare from the city centre but also capped at correct zonal cap.

 

[Deerfold]

Mandatory TOTO off stops you from being able to offer groupsave tickets.
While it doesn't matter so much in London where it's £1.75, now the fares have gone up to £3 it only takes 2 people to make a taxi cheaper for a shortish hops.

I use group tickets every couple of months. The last time i bought one on a bus was before Covid.

 

[BlueLeanie]

There are very few banks left for bus companies (or any other business) to pay cash into. That is the reality!

Oh dear.

Do you think that someone from Stagecoach would queue up at their local bank branch with a trolley of coin and notes and stand whilst the cashier counts it?

Maybe in 1990.

But most Business cash has been trunked direct to cash centres for over 30 years.

 

[Haywain]

But most Business cash has been trunked direct to cash centres for over 30 years.

Which adds a significant cash handling cost.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Oh dear.

Do you think that someone from Stagecoach would queue up at their local bank branch with a trolley of coin and notes and stand whilst the cashier counts it?

Maybe in 1990.

But most Business cash has been trunked direct to cash centres for over 30 years.

Very true. But that doesn’t apply to small businesses, who have a major problem. And in any event, as noted above, has a very significant cost.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Which adds a significant cash handling cost.

Even when the branch counters were open, business cash wasn't counted at the branches - unless the business was prepared to pay double the deposit fees of course!

It was handed in in a sealed white bag and trunked to cash centre.

Very true. But that doesn’t apply to small businesses, who have a major problem. And in any event, as noted above, has a very significant cost.

That's not true. All businesses have have access to the service for collection from the premises, and the token costs is usually a fraction of the financial and opportunity cost of sending someone out at £15 an hour to do the banking.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Even when the branch counters were open, business cash wasn't counted at the branches - unless the business was prepared to pay double the deposit fees of course!

It was handed in in a sealed white bag and trunked to cash centre.


That's not true. All businesses have have access to the service for collection from the premises, and the token costs is usually a fraction of the financial and opportunity cost of sending someone out at £15 an hour to do the banking.

Yes but with a very low limit on coin - which is of course the bulk of cash taken on bus. Making the ‘service’ virtually useless. And a collection option of maximum one day per week, sometimes two, which breaches safe limits much of the time.

 

[PeterC]

Even when the branch counters were open, business cash wasn't counted at the branches - unless the business was prepared to pay double the deposit fees of course!

It was handed in in a sealed white bag and trunked to

When I worked in a bank branch in the 70s the local London Transport bus garage delivered coin to us in sealed sacks. It was collected from us as part of the routine collection.

The down side was that we weren't allowed to order sorted coin but had to open and manually sort one of the LT sacks.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yes but with a very low limit on coin - which is of course the bulk of cash taken on bus. Making the ‘service’ virtually useless. And a collection option of maximum one day per week, sometimes two, which breaches safe limits much of the time.

G4S (and presumably Loomis and other Cash in Transit providers) will collect six days a week if you pay for it. The exclusions being Sundays and Public Holidays.

That said, since the pandemic most places are handling a lot less cash so are likely to have dropped to three collections a week at most.

 

[johncrossley]

Is there much of a saving in processing cost if the amount of cash taken on the bus is reduced? TfL said in 2014 that it cost £24 million to accept cash on the bus (so surely much more if they still accepted cash today) and by that point hardly anyone was paying in cash.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Many travellers will still make the effort to get currency, presumably in a bid to avoid fees for using their cards abroad

...and they are short-sighted. They believe (wrongly, just about always) that the exchange rate they get is the same as the rate used for card purchases. Typically, it's 3 - 5% worse. Even if it's claimed to be "commission free". A good credit card will use something very close to the city "middle" rate and won't charge anything extra. Some few even give a small % cashback on top.

Thus, if I use one of my cards vs. taking cash and spend USD1000 (online rates just now):

Card cost ~£775 minus £2 cashback = £773.
Cash from the post office £791.95

Cash wastes almost £20.

Ignores market fluctuations that may occur between the time you might have bought currency and the day on which you actually spend it. Those are wholly unpredictable and might work equally for you or against you. The only thing that any form of pre-purchase (whether cash, transfer to a currecy card/accoiunt/etc or other) gives you is a fixed (likely worse, at the time) rate at a point in time.

 

[BlueLeanie]

...and they are short-sighted. They believe (wrongly, just about always) that the exchange rate they get is the same as the rate used for card purchases. Typically, it's 3 - 5% worse. Even if it's claimed to be "commission free". A good credit card will use something very close to the city "middle" rate and won't charge anything extra. Some few even give a small % cashback on top.

Thus, if I use one of my cards vs. taking cash and spend USD1000 (online rates just now):

Card cost ~£775 minus £2 cashback = £773.
Cash from the post office £791.95

Cash wastes almost £20.

Ignores market fluctuations that may occur between the time you might have bought currency and the day on which you actually spend it. Those are wholly unpredictable and might work equally for you or against you. The only thing that any form of pre-purchase (whether cash, transfer to a currecy card/accoiunt/etc or other) gives you is a fixed (likely worse, at the time) rate at a point in time.

You have to be particularly careful with debit cards if you are tipping in the US.

Quite often a restaurant will take a pre-authorization for the f&b value, then invite you to choose a tip at the table. The way that some debit card transactions are processed means that only the initial authorization will get processed, and the tip will disappear leaving the server out of pocket.

Yes but with a very low limit on coin - which is of course the bulk of cash taken on bus. Making the ‘service’ virtually useless. And a collection option of maximum one day per week, sometimes two, which breaches safe limits much of the time.

Its usually a limit of around £25,000 per cash bag.

Are you a bus operator? Handle a lot of coin? You can book separate "bullion" collections and speak to your insurer about coin safes.

 

[Cesarcollie]

You have to be particularly careful with debit cards if you are tipping in the US.

Quite often a restaurant will take a pre-authorization for the f&b value, then invite you to choose a tip at the table. The way that some debit card transactions are processed means that only the initial authorization will get processed, and the tip will disappear leaving the server out of pocket.


Its usually a limit of around £25,000 per cash bag.

Are you a bus operator? Handle a lot of coin? You can book separate "bullion" collections and speak to your insurer about coin safes.

I know all that - but bullion collections are expensive. My point is that cash is increasingly difficult/expensive to handle. Banks and even Post Offices don’t really want it. Bus companies have the hassle of counting it, storing it, then paying to get it taken away. The option of saying ‘cards only’ - as many businesses now do - is increasingly tempting, and the Stagecoach trial will I am sure be watched closely by many. How many car parks now take cash?

 

[BlueLeanie]

I know all that - but bullion collections are expensive. My point is that cash is increasingly difficult/expensive to handle. Banks and even Post Offices don’t really want it. Bus companies have the hassle of counting it, storing it, then paying to get it taken away. The option of saying ‘cards only’ - as many businesses now do - is increasingly tempting, and the Stagecoach trial will I am sure be watched closely by many. How many car parks now take cash?

Yes, bullion collections are expensive. We used to pay about £8 per coin sack (eg £20 sack of bronze or £500 of £1 coins).

But you've made it clear that you yourself are a public transport operator handling huge amounts of coin in excess of your company's insurance cash limit.

What are you doing to mitigate this considerable amount of coin yourselves?

It's not just the insurance risk, there's also the risk of injury in handling that amount of coin. My cashier team used to handle around 2 tonnes of coin a week, we had reinforced dollies to move it around.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Yes, bullion collections are expensive. We used to pay about £8 per coin sack (eg £20 sack of bronze or £500 of £1 coins).

But you've made it clear that you yourself are a public transport operator handling huge amounts of coin in excess of your company's insurance cash limit.

What are you doing to mitigate this considerable amount of coin yourselves?

It's not just the insurance risk, there's also the risk of injury in handling that amount of coin. My cashier team used to handle around 2 tonnes of coin a week, we had reinforced dollies to move it around.

Thankfully not as much as 2 tonnes a week or even close. However this thread is about cashless bus services, not an interrogation of any particular operator’s procedures for handling coin. So perhaps leave it there rather than stray too far…….

 

[BlueLeanie]

Thankfully not as much as 2 tonnes a week or even close. However this thread is about cashless bus services, not an interrogation of any particular operator’s procedures for handling coin. So perhaps leave it there rather than stray too far…….

It's important to discuss both the back end of going cashless as well as the front end. From the £2.50 being given in coin to the driver there's a whole costly manual handling supply chain until that cash is credited to the bank account.

Cash that is sitting in floats around the Network is money that's not being used to offset debt. If there's £100000 in dead cash in an operator's safe, vault or floats at night, that's £100,000 that's not offsetting debt. So that costs £7,000 a year to service, and is equal to almost 3,000 single fares.

 

[johncrossley]

It's important to discuss both the back end of going cashless as well as the front end. From the £2.50 being given in coin to the driver there's a whole costly manual handling supply chain until that cash is credited to the bank account.

Cash that is sitting in floats around the Network is money that's not being used to offset debt. If there's £100000 in dead cash in an operator's safe, vault or floats at night, that's £100,000 that's not offsetting debt. So that costs £7,000 a year to service, and is equal to almost 3,000 single fares.

I think it is clear that cash fares cost a lot of money to process, so why don't bus operators discourage cash ticket sales by having much cheaper alternatives? TfL only managed to get cash down to negligible level before withdrawing cash fares in 2014 by offering a massive discount to Oyster users.

 

[Discuss223]

It's a disgrace.

If it has the King's head on it, then it should be accepted by all businesses.

I will not give my custom to a business that does not take cash.

Shame on BM Coaches.

How is it a public service if you have to be a member of a building society or bank to use it?

 

[BlueLeanie]

It's a disgrace.

If it has the King's head on it, then it should be accepted by all businesses.

I will not give my custom to a business that does not take cash.

Shame on BM Coaches.

How is it a public service if you have to be a member of a building society or bank to use it?

That's your lifestyle choice. Why should Catholic staff be forced to suffer the indignity of handling notes with an image of the head of the Church of England on them?

 

[Discuss223]

That's your lifestyle choice. Why should Catholic staff be forced to suffer the indignity of handling notes with an image of the head of the Church of England on them?

Because that's how we make our tender in this country.

In England, you should respect our way of life.

People have been handling coins in this country since the second century BC and had no problems.

Why should Catholic staff be forced to suffer the indignity of handling notes with an image of the head of the Church of England on them?

Why should I be forced to pay with virtual money when I have real money in my pocket that is made to be used?

Why should I be forced to give my bank details to a public service provider?

 

[Deerfold]

It's a disgrace.

Why is it a disgrace?

It's clear there are different views, but that's quite a claim - and it's not obvious why it's the case.

If it has the King's head on it, then it should be accepted by all businesses.

Why? this would be a requirement we've never had in this country

I will not give my custom to a business that does not take cash.

That's up to you.

Shame on BM Coaches.

Thart's very strong.

How is it a public service if you have to be a member of a building society or bank to use it?

I'd say it's goof to have other ways of paying as it is for topping up an Oyster card.

Because that's how we make our tender in this country.

And?

In England, you should respect our way of life.

Which is that increasingly we're not using cash. It's been going that way since I was a child. It's more than 10 yers since I first across a cashless business - and then it was worthy of comment.

People have been handling coins in this country since the second century BC and had no problems.

Many things change

Why should I be forced to pay with virtual money when I have real money in my pocket that is made to be used?

Any business "forces" people to pay how they choose. Some I deal with force people to use cash, which I find less convenient, but if I want to use their services, I have to pay them how they want to be paid.

 

[Discuss223]

It's clear there are different views, but that's quite a claim - and it's not obvious why it's the case.

My opinion, I'm entitled to it.

Thart's very strong.

Again, freedom of speech - I'm entitled to an opinion.

Why? this would be a requirement we've never had in this country

It's something that the Keep Cash UK group are working on.

We got over 33,000 signatures to protect our right to use cash in law, that's 33,000 plus people who care enough to take the time out of their day to sign in agreement against the cashless agenda.

Ask around and you will find that there are a large number of people who prefer to pay with the real thing.

Archived Petition: Make it unlawful for shops to refuse cash payments.

Make it illegal for retailers and services to decline cash payments.

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PetitionMake it unlawful for shops to refuse cash payments.​

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Any business "forces" people to pay how they choose. Some I deal with force people to use cash, which I find less convenient, but if I want to use their services, I have to pay them how they want to be paid.

When a business is a public transport service provider, that provides services that are supposedly open to the general public, then they shouldn't need to sign up to join a bank or building society in order to use them.