Caught using 16-17 saver discount at Stansted Airport

[Cnwak]

I was taking a train from Southampton to Stansted Airport, where I had used a 16-17 railway card rather than a 16-25 railway card.

At the exit of Stansted Airport station, there were inspectors and I was asked to go over to get my railcard checked, as I had used a 16-17 discount. She said it counted as a child ticket.

I told her that I had been asked for my ticket numerous times and no one had every brought it up. She took down my details and I told her it was a mistake.

I have now been waiting for my letter for over a month now.

I am very fearful of the outcomes as they may see the other times I used 16-17 mistakenly as once it’s out down on trainline that railcard is saved and I don’t need to add it for every transaction.

I am currently a medical student and fear that I may be prosecuted or taken to court which may affect my future career.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

This will be bad news, but there's almost nothing you can do at the moment but wait. The railway are allowed to take up to six months to get back to you, and chasing them won't help.

The one thing that you can do is think hard about whether you gave the railway your right address. Students in particular move about every year or so, so if you are no longer at the address you gave the railway then you need to find some way to make sure that mail for you actually reaches you. Otherwise the railway will assume you are ignoring them, and will definitely take the matter to court.

Once you have heard from the railway, if you come back to us we may be able to help you word your response. So please stay in touch!

 

[WesternLancer]

So I was taking a train to gatwick airport from Southampton where I had used a 16-17 railway card rather than a 16-25 railway card. At the exit of Gatwick station there were inspectors and I was asked to go over to get my railcard checked as I had used a 16-17 she said it counted as a child ticket. I told her that I had been asked for my ticket numerous times and no one had every brought it up. She took down my details and I told her it was a mistake. I have now been waiting for my letter for over a month now. I am very fearful of the outcomes as they may see the other times I used 16-17 mistakenly as once it’s out down on trainline that railcard is saved and I don’t need to add it for every transaction. I am currently a medical student and fear that I may be prosecuted or taken to court which may affect my future career.

Hi - welcome - you will get good advice on what to do here.

so do you actually have any Railcard?

The 16-17 Railcard IIRC gives a bigger discount than the 16-25 Railcard so if you are using the wrong one you are evading the fare (deliberately or inadvertently)

Other reports on here have indicated GWR have a backlog - You should download their revenue protection policy from the GW website (the pdf file) and have a read of that by way of preparation. Tho if you were stopped at Gatwick it maybe Southern you will be dealing with? (BTW why did you think it was GWR?, as you may of course be correct)

They do tend to settle out of court tho if you follow the usual advice on here.

I take it you gave a correct address and it is one you can get post from quickly if you are a student with a home and term time address?

You should also review your ticket buying history and try to work out how many times you have used the wrong Railcard so you know what is at stake financially - as they be able to check this and probably will do so. That does not mean they will not settle with you without court action however.

As a student you should also check what advice you can get for free from your Student Union advice centre.

 

[Cnwak]

Hi,
Thank you for your response I’m sure it is GWR as she stated when interviewing me that she worked for GWR if I remember correctly. And it was a GWR train I was taking to stanstaed sorry not Gatwick
My bad.

And yes I have a 16-25 that expires this September

 

[furlong]

Where did this happen then? Stansted ? Was it Greater Anglia perhaps?

 

[Cnwak]

Sorry LOndon stanstead not Gatwick

Welcome to the forum.

This will be bad news, but there's almost nothing you can do at the moment but wait. The railway are allowed to take up to six months to get back to you, and chasing them won't help.

The one thing that you can do is think hard about whether you gave the railway your right address. Students in particular move about every year or so, so if you are no longer at the address you gave the railway then you need to find some way to make sure that mail for you actually reaches you. Otherwise the railway will assume you are ignoring them, and will definitely take the matter to court.

Once you have heard from the railway, if you come back to us we may be able to help you word your response. So please stay in touch!

Where did this happen then? Stansted ? Was it Greater Anglia perhaps?

Stanstead sorry, and I should have access to my uni accom till the end of June so should’ve received the letter by then

 

[Cnwak]

Welcome to the forum.

This will be bad news, but there's almost nothing you can do at the moment but wait. The railway are allowed to take up to six months to get back to you, and chasing them won't help.

The one thing that you can do is think hard about whether you gave the railway your right address. Students in particular move about every year or so, so if you are no longer at the address you gave the railway then you need to find some way to make sure that mail for you actually reaches you. Otherwise the railway will assume you are ignoring them, and will definitely take the matter to court.

Once you have heard from the railway, if you come back to us we may be able to help you word your response. So please stay in touch!

As they also took my number and maybe email if I remember correctly would they contact me via those methods. Because I fear they may have tried to get in contact with me but failed to get a hold of me and then it looks like I’m intentionally avoiding them. Would it do any harm to call and check to see if they have tried to get in contact with me?

Where did this happen then? Stansted ? Was it Greater Anglia perhaps?

Stanstead

 

[WesternLancer]

As they also took my number and maybe email if I remember correctly would they contact me via those methods. Because I fear they may have tried to get in contact with me but failed to get a hold of me and then it looks like I’m intentionally avoiding them. Would it do any harm to call and check to see if they have tried to get in contact with me?


Stanstead

OK - I think whilst you await your letter you should carefully write a few notes to aid your memory when you do get asked to respond. For example GWR do not operate any trains to Stansted. It is more likely to be Great Anglia Railway. You may also want to change your thread title - eg 'stopped at Stansted with wrong ticket'

a) Can you remember exactly what date this happened? Make a note of that.

b) Did they give you any paperwork after they stopped you?

c) Do you still have it?

d) Does it name a railway company? Can you post an anonymised copy here to help people advise you.

We do not typically see cases on here where they contact people by e-mail or phone. They write to the postal address you would have been asked to give.

e) Did you give a postal address? and was it one you can be sure to get your post at?
If you gave a postal address that is what they will use (I assume because if they prosecute they need to send court papers to an address, and if you are found guilty but do not pay any fines levied by the court they ultimately need to send bailiffs to your address - so this is the one chance they had to get an address, when they stopped you, so you can expect them to use it) - but don't be too alarmed, there is every chance of avoiding that court / bailiff scenario.

f) Did you show any ID at their request to confirm that postal address?

Getting your post is vitally important now because you typically get 14 days to respond (which is your chance to offer to settle the matter out of court) - if they do not hear back from you you will be on an escalator to court - which you need to focus on avoiding.

g) If they tried to get in contact with you why do you think it would have failed? Did you give the wrong address? or does post at your hall of residence habitually go missing?

I am sorry that I am asking a lot of questions but it will help you get good advice if you can answer them as far as possible - or may help you write up your own notes of the event if you don't want to answer them on this forum.

You could try to ring them to see if they have sent a letter to you, but you need to clearly work out who stopped and questioned you (which company they worked for) as otherwise I fear you will have no idea who to actually ring!

Equally with the postal disruption over xmas and the delays with bank hols etc it may well be that they have not written to you.*

Also - just so you know - if they do take you to court but you never got the letters there is a process to 're-set the clock' on that - but of course it's best avoided in the first place if at all possible.

EDIT - * hard to know but I suspect it might take 8 to 10 weeks before you might get a letter, from the date of being stopped and questioned. So it may be that is the time frame to wait before ringing them.

 

[Cnwak]

OK - I think whilst you await your letter you should carefully write a few notes to aid your memory when you do get asked to respond. For example GWR do not operate any trains to Stansted. It is more likely to be Great Anglia Railway. You may also want to change your thread title - eg 'stopped at Stansted with wrong ticket'

a) Can you remember exactly what date this happened? Make a note of that.

b) Did they give you any paperwork after they stopped you?

c) Do you still have it?

d) Does it name a railway company? Can you post an anonymised copy here to help people advise you.

We do not typically see cases on here where they contact people by e-mail or phone. They write to the postal address you would have been asked to give.

e) Did you give a postal address? and was it one you can be sure to get your post at?
If you gave a postal address that is what they will use (I assume because if they prosecute they need to send court papers to an address, and if you are found guilty but do not pay any fines levied by the court they ultimately need to send bailiffs to your address - so this is the one chance they had to get an address, when they stopped you, so you can expect them to use it) - but don't be too alarmed, there is every chance of avoiding that court / bailiff scenario.

f) Did you show any ID at their request to confirm that postal address?

Getting your post is vitally important now because you typically get 14 days to respond (which is your chance to offer to settle the matter out of court) - if they do not hear back from you you will be on an escalator to court - which you need to focus on avoiding.

g) If they tried to get in contact with you why do you think it would have failed? Did you give the wrong address? or does post at your hall of residence habitually go missing?

I am sorry that I am asking a lot of questions but it will help you get good advice if you can answer them as far as possible - or may help you write up your own notes of the event if you don't want to answer them on this forum.

You could try to ring them to see if they have sent a letter to you, but you need to clearly work out who stopped and questioned you (which company they worked for) as otherwise I fear you will have no idea who to actually ring!

Equally with the postal disruption over xmas and the delays with bank hols etc it may well be that they have not written to you.

Also - just so you know - if they do take you to court but you never got the letters there is a process to 're-set the clock' on that - but of course it's best avoided in the first place if at all possible.

a) Yes I remember the exact

B)she never gave me paperwork I just had to write my details on a piece of paper and tick a few boxes to say whether I intended to fare evade etc

C)I don’t have the ticket anymore

D) pretty sure it’s greater anglia, sorry about the confusion

E) yes I gave a postal address

F) yes I gave my id to confirm my identity

G) I just fear that in the moment I may have made a spelling error or out the wrong post code

 

[30907]

I told her that I had been asked for my ticket numerous times and no one had every brought it up.

"Numerous times" - just on those two trains? Or previous tickets on previous occasions.

I am very fearful of the outcomes as they may see the other times I used 16-17 mistakenly as once it’s out down on trainline that railcard is saved and I don’t need to add it for every transaction.

The first time has to be deliberate.

I am currently a medical student and fear that I may be prosecuted or taken to court which may affect my future career.

Yes, you may be prosecuted if they decide not to offer a settlement. But it is most likely (based on this forum alone) that they will prosecute for one offence only and for an offence under the Railway Byelaws of boarding without a valid ticket. This is straightforward to prove and is seen as an effective deterrent.

This is a non-recordable offence; it may nevertheless show up on your DBS* but it is unlikely it will affect your career path. You should nevertheless notify your school if you are convicted (and report it on any occasion that you are asked). Search this forum (only) using "medical student" and you will find umpteen relevant cases.

(*I don't think we have had evidence of this, but I may be wrong and am not a lawyer.)

 

[Haywain]

The first time has to be deliberate.

Does it? A wrong railcard could be selected accidentally if they are adjacent in the list and/or the user has rushed.

 

[30907]

Does it? A wrong railcard could be selected accidentally if they are adjacent in the list and/or the user has rushed.

Fair point.

 

[Cnwak]

"Numerous times" - just on those two trains? Or previous tickets on previous occasions.


The first time has to be deliberate.

Yes, you may be prosecuted if they decide not to offer a settlement. But it is most likely (based on this forum alone) that they will prosecute for one offence only and for an offence under the Railway Byelaws of boarding without a valid ticket. This is straightforward to prove and is seen as an effective deterrent.

This is a non-recordable offence; it may nevertheless show up on your DBS* but it is unlikely it will affect your career path. You should nevertheless notify your school if you are convicted (and report it on any occasion that you are asked). Search this forum (only) using "medical student" and you will find umpteen relevant cases.

(*I don't think we have had evidence of this, but I may be wrong and am not a lawyer.)

As in fare evasion is a non recordable offence even if I get a criminal record, which I’m hoping not to get to?

 

[WesternLancer]

a) Yes I remember the exact

B)she never gave me paperwork I just had to write my details on a piece of paper and tick a few boxes to say whether I intended to fare evade etc

C)I don’t have the ticket anymore

D) pretty sure it’s greater anglia, sorry about the confusion

E) yes I gave a postal address

F) yes I gave my id to confirm my identity

G) I just fear that in the moment I may have made a spelling error or out the wrong post code

Thanks for these answers.

I think then ref your concern about the letter it is (G) that is pertinent. So did the staff take your address details and check it against the ID? (or was it ID that did not have your postal address on it maybe?)

You might hope that they would check addresses against the Royal Mail on line address finder to prevent errors ref postcodes or spellings, but I fear that may not always happen. However, Royal Mail is pretty good at delivering things to addresses where there are minor spelling mistakes in my experience (I used to handle a fair bit of mail in a previous job once).

However, I still tend to think you probably need to wait 8 to 10 weeks to hear from them. If you want to ring them you can give it a go but I would wait a bit longer. However, if you do ring them my advice would be do not get into a discussion about what happened if you can avoid it (politely say that you want to respond to the in writing when you have the letter from them) as you may risk incriminating yourself inadvertently in a discussion.

As @30907 says, it is worth you checking forums for posts from other medical students who have had the same or similar ticketing issues - but you do need to bear the following in mind:
- surely at some stage of buying or on the ticket it says '16-17 Railcard' and you must know if you are that age or not, even if this happened by accident first and subsequent times
- if you are studying medicine I assume you will get some teaching on ethics / medical ethics - think about it from other people's point of view - if you are prepared to lie about your age / Railcard, would you be prepared to make up false things on medical records? I'm not saying you would - but you can see how it looks.
- Having said that you are obviously treating this seriously
- At the appropriate point you may well need to declare this to your medical school, that is why you need advice from the Student Union or University confidential welfare service. You may also need to declare it to a professional association which you may be a student member of etc (see other thread where I recall this being raised)
- The general advice on here is that declaring it is not a career ending thing - it's the right thing to do - but concealing it when you should have declared it is usually considered more serious

From now onwards make 100% sure you always have the correct ticket as this will help support the narrative that you will need to make that you made mistake and have taken steps to ensure it never happens again. Make sure you have the correct Railcard, it's valid, you are aware of the rules on its use / T&Cs - they are not very long so read them carefully - your on line purchasing is set up correctly etc

Anyway - I know much of the above will sound worse than it is, but with luck things will be resolved without too much hassle for you.

 

[Llanigraham]

I've been helping people apply for jobs recently and have noted that the question some employers ask seems to have changed. It generally used to be "Have you been convicted................." now it can be "Have you ever been prosecuted..................". The difference may be subtle, but the response needs caraful consideration, as even a By-law case that actually goes to Court would apply in the latter question.

 

[island]

As in fare evasion is a non recordable offence even if I get a criminal record, which I’m hoping not to get to?

There are a number of offences which can be charged, the basic one is entering a train without a valid ticket which isn't recordable, and there's also travelling without paying your fare and with intent to avoid payment, this is recordable.

 

[30907]

As in fare evasion is a non recordable offence even if I get a criminal record, which I’m hoping not to get to?

Just to reinforce island's comment above: the specific Byelaw offence is non-recordable, the alternative under the Regulation of Railways Act 5.3 is recordable but spent after a year; however, even (relevant) spent convictions show on an Enhanced DBS which is why it is best to be upfront with your school if you are prosecuted.

 

[some bloke]

For doctors and medical students, "recordability" - and what DBS checks show - in themselves make less, little or no difference because you have to declare the conviction anyway, and probably the charge before that.

With important legal and regulatory issues, do not take on trust anything I or any other individuals say. Get the proper information from your medical school, the GMC and other appropriate sources. You want to be able to say later that you based your decisions on specific written information. If an individual tells you something in this area, confirm the position for yourself.

Here are some starting points for your research on this:

1. Have a look at whatever agreement you made at the start of the course, which probably included agreeing to inform the medical school if you are charged with a criminal offence.

2. The school's website may have the same information.

3. https://www.gmc-uk.org/registration...when-you-apply-guide/cautions-and-convictions

4. Please see paragraphs 76, 77 and 80 of this guidance:

Achieving good medical practice: guidance for medical students

This guidance outlines the standards expected of you – both inside and outside medical school – and shows how the principles and values of Good medical practice apply to you as a student.

www.gmc-uk.org

Paragraph 80 reads,

"If you have any questions about what you should declare to the GMC or
to your medical school, you can get advice from your medical school, a
medical defence organisation or the British Medical Association (BMA)."


Resources available to you may include:

- The student union may provide some free legal advice

- Student union welfare service

- University welfare service

 

[Cnwak]

Welcome to the forum.

This will be bad news, but there's almost nothing you can do at the moment but wait. The railway are allowed to take up to six months to get back to you, and chasing them won't help.

The one thing that you can do is think hard about whether you gave the railway your right address. Students in particular move about every year or so, so if you are no longer at the address you gave the railway then you need to find some way to make sure that mail for you actually reaches you. Otherwise the railway will assume you are ignoring them, and will definitely take the matter to court.

Once you have heard from the railway, if you come back to us we may be able to help you word your response. So please stay in touch!

Hi Guys,
I’ve finally received my letter. Thankfully they have just sent me a quote which means that there will be no court proceedings as long as I pay the fine of 115.40.

Thank you for all the help, I can finally have some peace of mind.

 

[island]

Good to hear you've got a satisfactory resolution.

Very technically, this is not a "fine" as only courts can impose fines, but a financial settlement.

Needless to say, it is completely essential that you travel with the right ticket going forward as should you come to the railway's attention in the future for ticketing irregularities you are less likely to avoid a trip to court.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Thanks for letting us know.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Guys,
I’ve finally received my letter. Thankfully they have just sent me a quote which means that there will be no court proceedings as long as I pay the fine of 115.40.

Thank you for all the help, I can finally have some peace of mind.

Thanks for updating us - whilst not cheap this is at least a resolution of it for you. Glad that their letter got to you OK.

 

[Merseysider]

Hi Guys,
I’ve finally received my letter. Thankfully they have just sent me a quote which means that there will be no court proceedings as long as I pay the fine of 115.40.

Thank you for all the help, I can finally have some peace of mind.

Great to hear. Best to ensure you pay this promptly and keep a copy safe (online screenshot / email / letter) of any correspondence confirming receipt of payment.

Also, would recommend you check the exact expiry date of your railcard and add a reminder in your phone, or place a postit note somewhere prominent reminding you to renew, as a second offence in future may be escalated.