Caught Using a 11-15 card

[furlong]

In case you missed it earlier in the thread, the mitigation here is that the OP was entitled to free travel - and indeed subsequently obtained a replacement pass. That might well count as an exceptional reason for settling this out of court with a warning. (It's not clear to what extent the prosecutor is aware of this yet.) Of course that doesn't detract from what the OP did. But secondly there is the question of how the prosecutor is translating what happened into that particular offence. While this is probably a routine matter for them, it is not obvious from the extracts from the paperwork, and they do need to spell this out so the OP can understand the precise offence. In essence this offence is one of not following instructions given to the OP and so for there to be a case to answer it is surely necessary to spell out precisely what those instructions were, when and how they were given, and in what way they were not followed. (This might involve references to case law.)

 

[Haywain]

But secondly there is the question of how the prosecutor is translating what happened into that particular offence. While this is probably a routine matter for them, it is not obvious from the extracts from the paperwork, and they do need to spell this out so the OP can understand the precise offence.

To challenge that, the OP would require the services of a solicitor and would incur the costs involved. And the OP has already discovered that engaging professional assistance of that nature is not something they can afford.

 

[2019292]

Thank you so much for all of your replies. You guys have helped me out alot.
What I’ll do now is I’m going to email them and write something along the lines of I’m really sorry… first time… never do it again… I do have a 16+ oyster which has be reissued since the incident took place… please forgive me.

Is it appropriate to add in my job and my degree ( both in healthcare and enhanced dbs check)?

Also I might be contacting a solicitor for some advice to how to approach my work place and my university. If there is a cheaper way for this advice I’m all for it.
Thank you so much.
I’ll put in email once I’m back home if that is a good thing to do.

Also should I mention I’ll pay the fare and any other outstanding fees

 

[Danberto]

In case you missed it earlier in the thread, the mitigation here is that the OP was entitled to free travel - and indeed subsequently obtained a replacement pass. That might well count as an exceptional reason for settling this out of court with a warning. (It's not clear to what extent the prosecutor is aware of this yet.) Of course that doesn't detract from what the OP did. But secondly there is the question of how the prosecutor is translating what happened into that particular offence. While this is probably a routine matter for them, it is not obvious from the extracts from the paperwork, and they do need to spell this out so the OP can understand the precise offence. In essence this offence is one of not following instructions given to the OP and so for there to be a case to answer it is surely necessary to spell out precisely what those instructions were, when and how they were given, and in what way they were not followed. (This might involve references to case law.)

He lost a 16-18 card in December and in April/May he was caught using a 11-15 card. I don't know how long it takes to get a replacement but I wouldn't imagine it would take 4/5 months as long as all documentation requirements were in place. He appears to have only applied for a new card once he had been stopped with the invalid card. I would think that had he not been stopped, he would have continued to use the 11-15 card when he wanted to travel.

Simply being 'of age' to qualify for a discount card would surely be the same as someone who qualified by age for a 26-30 railcard but didn't hold a valid one? The point being that a 'valid' card needs to be held, not that someone should get the fare by dint of age alone when a 'valid' card is not produced.

I suspect that travelling without a valid discount card is of greater concern to TfL than the monetary value of the fare evasion. After all the cost of the fare was less than £2 yet a SJPN has been issued.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Also I might be contacting a solicitor for some advice to how to approach my work place and my university. If there is a cheaper way for this advice I’m all for it.

In the first place, talk to your student union. Most likely they will have a welfare officer who can advise on this sort of thing - and I would expect them to maintain confidentiality between you and the university, so telling your student union isn't the same as telling the academic side of the university.

 

[30907]

To challenge that, the OP would require the services of a solicitor and would incur the costs involved. And the OP has already discovered that engaging professional assistance of that nature is not something they can afford.

The OP could board a bus or two on the route concerned (using their pass!) and check what relevant signage is present. If there is none, or there is an obvious ambiguity, then they might consider pursuing the matter.

 

[Haywain]

The OP could board a bus or two on the route concerned (using their pass!) and check what relevant signage is present. If there is none, or there is an obvious ambiguity, then they might consider pursuing the matter.

Would that be using the legal assistance they've already stated they can't afford?

 

[2019292]

I haven’t even started university. I’m going into my first year next week.
I didn’t reissue my card in December cause I didn’t need it. I found my card literally couple days before the incident broken.


What do you mean relevant signage information?

I used his card only because I was overwhelmed with school

 

[Danberto]

I didn’t reissue my card in December cause I didn’t need it. I found my card literally couple days before the incident broken.

I would suspect that TfL would question why you didn't contact them to inform them that your 16+ card was lost/broken a couple of days before the "incident". They may also wonder why you didn't pay the fare as per stated requirement on their website. source - TfL website

 

[2019292]

I actually did try to reissue it when I found out I broke it. I went on their website but app it was a different website you needed to go on. I did call them also.

I didn’t know that about the regulations or anything for tfl. Yeah I know I’m 18 but I’m still a child mentally, I didn’t know many things nor did I read terms and conditions. I was a clueless person before this mess.

I actually did try to reissue it when I found out I broke it. I went on their website but app it was a different website you needed to go on. I did call them also.

I didn’t know that about the regulations or anything for tfl. Yeah I know I’m 18 but I’m still a child mentally, I didn’t know many things nor did I read terms and conditions. I was a clueless person before this mess. Please bear in mind I was still in sixth form at the time not even in university.

 

[30907]

What do you mean relevant signage information?

Sorry, a sign saying you needed to pay/have a valid pass,or that there were penalties for not doing so.

I haven't been on a London bus for a bit, so can't be more specific - but I would be surprised if there wasn't something to that effect.

 

[Danberto]

I actually did try to reissue it when I found out I broke it. I went on their website but app it was a different website you needed to go on. I did call them also.

I didn’t know that about the regulations or anything for tfl. Yeah I know I’m 18 but I’m still a child mentally, I didn’t know many things nor did I read terms and conditions. I was a clueless person before this mess.

It's good that you instigated the reissue (before the incident?), there will be evidence of logging on to your account/the phone call.

Unfortunately, in the eyes of law, 18 is considered to be an adult not a child regardless of what someone says unless there is medical evidence stating that the 'adult' is not mentally capable of operating at beyond a child's level.

It is a pity that you did not have a valid 16+ zip card to hand otherwise a defence for having a 11-15 card on the bus on the grounds of mistakenly picking it up may have been put forward in mitigation. I think though that the fact a card was reissued so soon after the incident would be taken that the original 16+ card was unavailable to you and that's why you used the child's one.

 

[2019292]

Is it alright if I just email the tfl using the email I used for my first letter ?

It's good that you instigated the reissue (before the incident?), there will be evidence of logging on to your account/the phone call.

Unfortunately, in the eyes of law, 18 is considered to be an adult not a child regardless of what someone says unless there is medical evidence stating that the 'adult' is not mentally capable of operating at beyond a child's level.

It is a pity that you did not have a valid 16+ zip card to hand otherwise a defence for having a 11-15 card on the bus on the grounds of mistakenly picking it up may have been put forward in mitigation. I think thought that the fact a card was reissued so soon after the incident would be taken that the original 16+ card was unavailable to you and that's why you used the child's one.

I tried doing it on Sunday but I actually ended up calling after the incident explaining why. I couldn’t

 

[2019292]

Update is I have been found guilty.
Need to pay £345.

Thank you for the help you guys have given me.
For those who are in the same situation as me.
I’ll give an update about when I tell my university and my job. I’m in healthcare for both.

And bear in mind first year for university and I am still in training for the second .

 

[2019292]

Update: contacted uni- they said don’t worry about it.

 

[spag23]

Update: contacted uni- they said don’t worry about it.

I suggest getting that in writing from them.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Very few people bother to update us after a result like yours. I’m sure people appreciate you doing so, and it’s good that you’ll seemingly be able to move on from the matter without much trouble.

Needless to say, just make sure it doesn’t happen again…

 

[2019292]

I emailed them. I didn’t say it in person, didn’t have the courage.

For my work, I’m just waiting until my enhanced dbs check with university, if it shows I’ll update and also let you know what my work place said.

For those in similar situation I’m in healthcare for both uni and for work.
And first year.

 

[MotCO]

I emailed them. I didn’t say it in person, didn’t have the courage.

That's probably not a bad course of action, particularly if you are not confident in discussing this sort of thing. Plus, you presumably received a response by email, and I would strongly urge that you take care to save it, and take paper copies in case you lose access to your emails.

 

[Psp]

Update is I have been found guilty.
Need to pay £345.

Thank you for the help you guys have given me.
For those who are in the same situation as me.
I’ll give an update about when I tell my university and my job. I’m in healthcare for both.

And bear in mind first year for university and I am still in training for the second .

Was this the total you had to pay? Also do you know if this was recorded as a criminal offence? Will it show on records and enhanced dbs?

 

[Hadders]

Was this the total you had to pay? Also do you know if this was recorded as a criminal offence? Will it show on records and enhanced dbs?

Please start your own thread if you are in need of assistance and we will be happy to assist you. This is because our forum policy is to only discuss one case per thread to avoid confusion. Also no two cases are ever quite the same, however similar they might appear to be at first.

 

[Psp]

Please start your own thread if you are in need of assistance and we will be happy to assist you. This is because our forum policy is to only discuss one case per thread to avoid confusion. Also no two cases are ever quite the same, however similar they might appear to be at first.

Oh no, I was just curious what the full outcome was along with the fine? Apologies for my wording I don’t think I wrote it clear enough

 

[2019292]

Was this the total you had to pay? Also do you know if this was recorded as a criminal offence? Will it show on records and enhanced dbs?

Yeah total was £345, including victim surcharge, tfl, court crap all of it.
For record wise, you’ll have to wait. I’m going to update on that when I get mine done in dec 2023

 

[2019292]

I still am waiting to do dbs

 

[30907]

I still am waiting to do dbs

Thanks for both updates - useful info (and if you do an Enhanced DBS, do let us know whether it shows, as there's some uncertainty).

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for both updates - useful info (and if you do an Enhanced DBS, do let us know whether it shows, as there's some uncertainty).

Whether it will show on an Enhanced DBS will be highly contextual.

 

[ac-03]

Link to solicitors webpage regarding DBS

Miss The Train Today Or Miss A Good Job Forever?

Blog post that looks into the problem with fair evasion and how we can help with any problems that may arise.

www.wainwrightcummins.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Link to solicitors webpage regarding DBS

Miss The Train Today Or Miss A Good Job Forever?

Blog post that looks into the problem with fair evasion and how we can help with any problems that may arise.

www.wainwrightcummins.co.uk

"Fair evasion". As opposed to unfair evasion?

 

[NorthWestRover]

"Fair evasion". As opposed to unfair evasion?

Depressing on an official company site, isn't it?

 

[swt_passenger]

"Fair evasion". As opposed to unfair evasion?

Depressing on an official company site, isn't it?

Not seeing this, only a few hours later. Fixed?