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Caught with a Zone 1&2 Travel Card... I was coming from Zone 4

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SurfSteve

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Hello all,

First of all i'd like to say thank you for all of those that contribute to this forum. It has proved very useful and interesting reading whilst fretting about my situation.

Yesterday morning I was caught using a Zone 1 & 2 paper Travel card. I live in Zone 5. I was coming from zone 4. . Today was the first time I was caught.


It is inevitable that I will be paying a fine, I've come to terms with this. Does anybody have any idea how much it will be? A solicitor friend told me the max it could be is £1000 and thats only in very rare cases. A full prosecution could cost me my job, so ideally I need to try and avoid that. Could it be worth writing/calling the prosecution office, stating the above and saying I'm happy to pay the fine upfront?


Could anybody shed some light on this and confirm if this is correct?

I haven't had a letter through the post yet, when I do I will scan and upload it here.

Steve
 
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There are a few forum members here who will give some advice regarding if this should go to trial or an out of court settlement is available. I suggest wait until the paperwork arrives in the post from the Train Operating Company this could take up to 6 months!

In the meantime can you tell us
  • Who challenged you - Gateline staff or revenue control officer?
  • Which train company is it
  • were you given any paperwork and were you cautioned whilst giving statement.
  • Were (previous) tickets purchased with cash or card.
 

SurfSteve

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Thanks for replying- I've answered your questions below.
  • Who challenged you - Gateline staff or revenue control officer?
    It was a revenue control officer, there was a number of them in plain clothes.
  • Which train company is it
    Southeastern, I was stopped at London Cannon St.
  • were you given any paperwork and were you cautioned whilst giving statement.
    I was given a receipt like MG11, I was cautioned.
  • Were (previous) tickets purchased with cash or card.
    All previous tickets have been purchased with card.

I've also drafted a letter to try and push for an out of court settlement which is below, it is very generic as to not incriminate myself further.
 
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cuccir

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Yesterday morning I was caught using a Zone 1 & 2 paper Travel card. I live in Zone 5. I was coming from zone 4. I've been doing this for about 2 years. Today was the first time I was caught. I told the officer most of the truth, but told him I had only been doing it for about 5 months.

I'm going to guess that you're boarding at stations without ticket barriers in zones 4 and 5 and then travelling to stations with barriers in zones and 1 and 2?

Presuming this, this is potentially very serious. Train companies take a dim view of long-term, deliberate fare evasion, which is what this amounts to. A quick check suggests that if you've been buying annual paper travelcards, then you've saved approximately £1000 a year by doing this (A zone 1-5 annual travelcard is £996 more than a zone 1-2). In financial terms, this puts your case in the upper bracket of fare evasion (though not at the absolute top).

That said, train companies do sometimes settle out of court even when very large amounts have been evaded. Your case is not the absolute most serious (you have not, for example, fraudulently made fake tickets or attempted to alter expiry dates). It is likely that any settlement with the company would involve repaying some or all of the evaded fare. It would be particularly useful to know which train company you're dealing with, as nuts & bolts asked, as they have very different tendencies when it comes to prosecution.

Could it be worth writing/calling the prosecution office, stating the above and saying I'm happy to pay the fine upfront?

No. This case will be passed on to someone in the prosecution office to investigate, and they will write to you asking for your explanation. Until it lands on someone's desk, which might take a few weeks, essentially you just have to wait. You will have the opportunity to offer to settle out of court when responding to that letter. Given the amount evaded, there is also the possibility that the train company may ask you to attend an interview to discuss this further. The train company will be looking to establish the extent of your evasion at that point. You are not obliged to attend of course, but it may offer a chance to discuss settling.

does anybody have any idea how much it will be? A solicitor friend told me the max it could be is £1000 and that's only in very rare cases.

I don't think that's correct, but I'm willing to be corrected. The most likely legislation that they will look to prosecute you under is the Regulation of the Railways Act. You can see the fine bands that magistrates must follow; these are calculated in terms of relevant weekly income. There's no mention of a £1000 cap here.

There is the complicating matter of your lie about 5 months v 2 years. If discovered, this lie would likely make the company less likely to settle, as it shows increase harm (in terms of financial loss) and would provide greater evidence for intent to avoid the fare. Given this lie, and the amount involved, I would advise having a more formal conversation with a criminal law solicitor; you can usually get free consultations. I would probably do this upon receiving the first letter from the train company, as you may want legal advice in responding to the letter.

A full prosecution could cost me my job, so ideally I need to try and avoid that
If it's not identifying, you could give us the industry that you work in and we might be able to provide more advice; you'd be surprised how many professionals do have criminal records! If you don't want to do that, then I would strongly advise speaking to a union rep if you have one, and to look up your relevant HR policies.

You may also want to edit your initial post to remove your name. I don't know if it's possible to change your user name, but again you might want to speak to an admin of the forums to see if this is possible.

I don't want to sound too negative; there is a chance the train company will offer to settle this matter out of court. However, you should prepare yourself for the possibility a prosecution, given the amount evaded.
 
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SurfSteve

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Thanks for replying.

You've got it spot on with my evading. None of the stations I travel to in the morning/evening have barriers, but the stations in central london all do.

Also- don't worry, my name isn't Steve, just a nice generic name ;) (I also don't surf for what its worth!)

I work in law (but i'm not a lawyer). I've drafted a letter to them which (at this time) is waiting to approved by mods to post on here, in short it says "Sorry, I won't do it again, I will co-operate fully to resolve the issue as quickly and smoothly as possible"

One up-side is that I use different stations all the time so it may be harder to trace me? Although this could be totally incorrect.
 

SurfSteve

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FYI this is my drafted letter

Dear Sir/Madam,

I apologise unreservedly and sincerely for having the incorrect travel card for the appropriate zones in which I was travelling. It was a grave error of judgement for which there can be no excuse.

I am willing to hold my hands up and accept that I will be facing a very large fine for my actions, I would like this matter to be kept out of the courts if at all possible as it would put my career in jeopardy, this is especially troubling as I have only just started a new job. I admit I have made a huge mistake and can ensure it will not be one I intend on repeating. The matter has already caused me a great deal of stress and anxiety, it happened yesterday and I haven’t slept a wink. I would like the matter to be resolved as quickly and smoothly as possible and I will co-operate with any course of action you choose to take.

I realise the severity of my actions and once again I would like to apologise for them. I do not wish for this matter to waste any more of your resources and valuable time and don't want to trouble the courts with this incident. I fully realise the severity of this matter and am willing to immediately pay the outstanding fare, any administrative penalty and any administrative costs that may be incurred for the purposes of settling the matter.

Yours sincerely
 

Islineclear3_1

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I would start saving in the event you are asked to pay a settlement to keep your case out of court - or - if it goes to court, a hefty fine is imposed upon you

I probably wouldn't have told the officer you've been doing this for 5 months but that is hearsay now...
 

cuccir

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I work in law (but i'm not a lawyer). I've drafted a letter to them which (at this time) is waiting to approved by mods to post on here, in short it says "Sorry, I won't do it again, I will co-operate fully to resolve the issue as quickly and smoothly as possible".

OK; yeah, I guess you'll know then that law is one of the stricter professions for people with convictions. I would advise looking at your company's policies.

I would refrain from any communication with the rail company before speaking to a solicitor. Everything you send to them is potential evidence in a case. Furthermore, in all likelihood at the moment no-one in the prosecution office knows who you are - you're probably a report sat in a pile somewhere that might not be picked up for a few weeks. Finally, if we're being a cynical, a small percentage of reports are lost, misfiled, forgotten about etc. So I would advise waiting until they write to you.

One up-side is that I use different stations all the time so it may be harder to trace me? Although this could be totally incorrect.

Do you mean trace in terms of realizing that you've been doing this for 2 years rather than 5 months? I'm not sure; I don't think it would make a big difference, no. Also - I don't think most of us (myself included) are in these forums to offer advice in terms of avoiding any sort of consequences for deliberate or sustained fare evasion. We're happy to help advise in getting an out of court settlement that suits both parties, but this sort of comment concerns me in terms of what you're expecting us to offer you!
 

SurfSteve

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I would start saving in the event you are asked to pay a settlement to keep your case out of court - or - if it goes to court, a hefty fine is imposed upon you

I probably wouldn't have told the officer you've been doing this for 5 months but that is hearsay now...

I'm preparing for a big fine, most likely north of £1000.

I wouldn;t of given a time frame if i wasn't pushed to do so, even when I said I'm not sure he was asking for rough estimates, which is why I said 5 months, In hindsight I should of just kept saying I wasn't sure.
 

SurfSteve

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Also - I don't think most of us (myself included) are in these forums to offer advice in terms of avoiding any sort of consequences for deliberate or sustained fare evasion. We're happy to help advise in getting an out of court settlement that suits both parties, but this sort of comment concerns me in terms of what you're expecting us to offer you!

Apologies, I meant no harm. I realise I've screwed up and will ultimately be the one paying the price. I'm not looking for ways to avoid the fine- the fine is a given at this point.
 

Islineclear3_1

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Bear in mind if the TOC write to you:

You say in your letter that you "apologise unreservably and sincerely...that you made a grave error of judgement" - but be mindful of the fact that the TOC might consider your actions as deliberate fare evasion. The seriousness of this, for the length of time stated might make them consider court action in the first instance.
 

SurfSteve

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Bear in mind if the TOC write to you:

You say in your letter that you "apologise unreservably and sincerely...that you made a grave error of judgement" - but be mindful of the fact that the TOC might consider your actions as deliberate fare evasion. The seriousness of this, for the length of time stated might make them consider court action in the first instance.

If this is the case, am I able to plead guilty by post? The officer yesterday mentioned this was an option. It's annoying its such a long drawn out process. Ideally I'd like to pay the fine asap and move on, however it looks like this wont be the case.
 

Bertie the bus

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I wouldn;t of given a time frame if i wasn't pushed to do so, even when I said I'm not sure he was asking for rough estimates, which is why I said 5 months, In hindsight I should of just kept saying I wasn't sure.
I believe some people in prosecution departments do read this forum, and you’d better hope nobody from Southeastern reads this thread.

You’re so sorry for doing it that you lied when questioned and now wish you had told a better lie.
 

najaB

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You’re so sorry for doing it that you lied when questioned and now wish you had told a better lie.
To be fair - five months, a year? Both are far enough removed from "a couple of times because I couldn't pay my rent this month" that it doesn't make that much difference.
 

Bertie the bus

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The difference between 5 months and 2 years makes a massive difference to how much the OP has profitted from their actions and how much Southeastern would require for an out of court settlement.
 

cuccir

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If this is the case, am I able to plead guilty by post? The officer yesterday mentioned this was an option. It's annoying its such a long drawn out process. Ideally I'd like to pay the fine asap and move on, however it looks like this wont be the case.

There may be the option to do this, yes, though remember that will likely create a criminal record. I don't think they are likely to move straight to prosecution. If nothing else writing to you gives you chance to provide them with more evidence!

Southeastern, I was stopped at London Cannon St.

I missed this; the good news is that Southeastern (I think) are more likely to settle than most.
 

najaB

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The difference between 5 months and 2 years makes a massive difference to how much the OP has profitted from their actions and how much Southeastern would require for an out of court settlement.
Oh, of course. But five months is long enough to make prosecution more likely than not.
 

Trackman

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To the OP: You were stopped at Cannon Street, how did they know you travelled from outside Zones 1&2?
 

SurfSteve

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To the OP: You were stopped at Cannon Street, how did they know you travelled from outside Zones 1&2?

I initially said I came from London Bridge to Cannon St. They put the pressure on and said something like "Are you sure thats the truth? We can run your ticket and check"

At that point I just started fessing up.

The difference between 5 months and 2 years makes a massive difference to how much the OP has profitted from their actions and how much Southeastern would require for an out of court settlement.
Agreed, if they pull me up on it being 2 years I will fess up, I'm unsure whether to do so unless they mention it first.

Essentially whatever they say I've done, I'm going to have to admit it and offer to settle out of court. I'm expecting a huge fine, at the end of the day it serves me right for doing it for so long and getting cocky.
 

SurfSteve

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Does anybody know how they backdate the fines by the way? Besides my confession how can they prove I was fare evading for a long period of time?
 

swt_passenger

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Does anybody know how they backdate the fines by the way? Besides my confession how can they prove I was fare evading for a long period of time?
They wouldn’t back date the fine. I think you are probably asking:
“If they have admissible evidence can they charge you with an offence going back further than 5 months”?
Yes, they can, but they’d have to have the evidence, or your admission.
 

Haywain

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It is inevitable that I will be paying a fine, I've come to terms with this. Does anybody have any idea how much it will be? A solicitor friend told me the max it could be is £1000
In your shoes I would be concerned about the value of the fares they will seek to recover on top of the fine. The fine is based on your wages, but the costs are going to be based on what they thought you should have paid.
 

furlong

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Firstly, it sounds like professional legal advice would be a good idea. There are techniques for negotiation where, in effect, you can offer the company the certainty of an agreed amount of compensation out-of-court that could be higher than a more uncertain not-agreed-by-you amount a court might award after a prosecution. E.g a criminal court might be persuaded only to award compensation based on actual loss in practical terms (difference in season ticket fares) while the company might wish for compensation to be calculated on the basis of anytime single fares, and the period of offending might also be a matter of dispute in terms of what can be proved beyond reasonable doubt and what you agree to in a settlement. In other words, with delicate negotiations, it can be in the best interests of both parties to settle out-of-court,
 

SurfSteve

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In your shoes I would be concerned about the value of the fares they will seek to recover on top of the fine. The fine is based on your wages, but the costs are going to be based on what they thought you should have paid.

But how do they calculate this? I've said I evaded for 5 months but they could potentially prove it's been longer, what I'm wondering now is how would they do this? Can they do this? Its all been paper tickets as opposed to an Oyster Card, all of which are now in the bin.
I'm preparing for a big fine and setting aside a portion of my wages each month until this inevitably comes.

Firstly, it sounds like professional legal advice would be a good idea. There are techniques for negotiation where, in effect, you can offer the company the certainty of an agreed amount of compensation out-of-court that could be higher than a more uncertain not-agreed-by-you amount a court might award after a prosecution. E.g a criminal court might be persuaded only to award compensation based on actual loss in practical terms (difference in season ticket fares) while the company might wish for compensation to be calculated on the basis of anytime single fares, and the period of offending might also be a matter of dispute in terms of what can be proved beyond reasonable doubt and what you agree to in a settlement. In other words, with delicate negotiations, it can be in the best interests of both parties to settle out-of-court,

Thank you for the heads up on this, I will talk to some of my friends in law when the letter comes and try and decide the best way to proceed.


I'd like to take a second now to thank everybody thus far for their advice and help, it really has helped ease some of the stress I've caused myself.
 

zebedee104

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To the OP: You were stopped at Cannon Street, how did they know you travelled from outside Zones 1&2?

The ticket readers would show a “dumbbell” has been happening for a very long time, i.e. an exit at Cannon Street without an entrance somewhere, and vice versa. Patterns can be flagged for investigation. Investigators can and do watch out for/follow particular passengers if they have suspicions, and would likely know exactly where the passenger has travelled from before they’re questioned.
 

SurfSteve

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The ticket readers would show a “dumbbell” has been happening for a very long time, i.e. an exit at Cannon Street without an entrance somewhere, and vice versa. Patterns can be flagged for investigation. Investigators can and do watch out for/follow particular passengers if they have suspicions, and would likely know exactly where the passenger has travelled from before they’re questioned.

I've been going the gym in the morning's (exiting at Cannon St 99% of the time) since Jan ( Just over 5 months). Before this I would come in later and go to work using different stations. In the evenings I can go to one of three stations leaving London and one of four stations to get home.

Do come back once you receive your letter as the experts here can then advise on the specifics/technicalities contained in that letter

I absolutely will do, everybody on here has been incredibly helpful thus far.
 

Haywain

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But how do they calculate this? I've said I evaded for 5 months but they could potentially prove it's been longer, what I'm wondering now is how would they do this? Can they do this?
How do they calculate this? They take what they know (5 months), find out what they can about your employment history and perhaps make assumptions. Can they do it? Yes, because you have been cheating them. The court will decide what you should pay - unless you settle first, which will then be your decision about what to pay.

As for legal advice, if you are a member of a trade union, they almost certainly have a help number where you can obtain free legal advice and assistance. If you're not a union member, your household insurance may well offer a legal advice option as well.
 
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