Caught without a day ticket - Chiltern

[gholamkabuj]

Hello,

I know receiving a letter can take many months, but since it's been 1.5 months and I have not received the letter yet, is it advisable for me to contact Chiltern/TIL to see if they have issued a letter or considered my case already?

Thank you!

 

[Hadders]

Hello,

I know receiving a letter can take many months, but since it's been 1.5 months and I have not received the letter yet, is it advisable for me to contact Chiltern/TIL to see if they have issued a letter or considered my case already?

Thank you!

I would not contact Chiltern.

6 weeks isn’t unusual, especially with Christmas in this period. Recent cases involving Chiltern seem to take longer for the initial letter to come because they seem to research journey history with Trainline before writing.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello,

I know receiving a letter can take many months, but since it's been 1.5 months and I have not received the letter yet, is it advisable for me to contact Chiltern/TIL to see if they have issued a letter or considered my case already?

Thank you!

Try to think about the details that you gave to Chiltern. Are you sure that they got your address correctly? Is your local postie pretty good at delivering wrongly addressed post? (we have a relative who gets our house number wrong on Christmas cards - but they get our names right and the postie manages to put them through our door instead of our neighbour's).

If you're reasonably certain that a letter will reach you, then my advice would still be to wait to see if one will show up. But against this, if you think that there could be a problem with a letter getting to you, then it would be sensible to contact Chiltern. Have a look at their 'Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy' (https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/files/timetables/Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy.pdf) which says on page 7:

We are a very busy team, and it can be a little while before we receive the inspector's reports and process them. If you are concerned you may have missed some correspondence, for example if you have moved address, you can e-mail the Economic Crime & Fraud Team at [email protected] with the details you gave the inspector at the time and the date you made the journey, and we can look into this further for you.

It is vitally important that you inform us of any address changes, as it is likely we will be sending letters to you via the address provided to the member of staff at the time. If correspondence is not replied to, this may mean that court action to recover any outstanding fare is taken.

PLEASE NOTE – This mailbox is only used to inform us of a new correspondence address or sending through evidence of a valid ticket or railcard at the time the journey was undertaken, this email address cannot be used to make any appeal or mitigation.

<EDIT TO ADD:> I'd also agree with @Hadders' comment above: it may not be time to worry just yet.

 

[gholamkabuj]

Hello,
Thank you all very much for all your guidance so far. It has been more than two months since the incidence and I still have not received anything. Is it advisable for me to reach out to Chiltern Railways now? Is there any downside in doing so? I thought maybe it would show my goodwill in making up for my mistakes as well.

I really appreciate your help in advance.

 

[gray1404]

Hello,
Thank you all very much for all your guidance so far. It has been more than two months since the incidence and I still have not received anything. Is it advisable for me to reach out to Chiltern Railways now? Is there any downside in doing so? I thought maybe it would show my goodwill in making up for my mistakes as well.

I really appreciate your help in advance.

No. You need to wait and resist the urge to contact them.

 

[gholamkabuj]

No. You need to wait and resist the urge to contact them.

May I know why you say that? What is the downside? I am worried if I have missed a correspondence from them, as it has happened to others too.

 

[30907]

May I know why you say that? What is the downside? I am worried if I have missed a correspondence from them, as it has happened to others too.

Given that they provide contact details (quoted in #33), there is no obvoous downside, but posters upthread have reported longer waits than yours.
Unless you have a specific reason for believing you might have missed post, or are about to go away for several weeks, you should leave it a while longer.

 

[gray1404]

May I know why you say that? What is the downside? I am worried if I have missed a correspondence from them, as it has happened to others too.

Quite simply, they often take longer then this to get in touch

 

[gholamkabuj]

Hello,
It has been more than 3 months since the incident on November 20th and I still have not received any correspondence. I emailed the Chiltern fraud team a couple of weeks ago to which they replied

”If you have held any railcards, it may speed up the process if you can forward proof of these railcards to me via e-mail.
Your case will be investigated, and we will be in touch in due course.
We are a very busy department so it may take up to six months for you to receive any correspondence.”

And I sent them my railcard afterwards. Given that it has been a long time and I have not received a letter, I was wondering whether it is possible that their response is inaccurate and they have already sent a letter (which I have not received for some reason)? I would like to avoid having the matter sent to court without me communicating with them first. Is there anything I can do at this point?

Thank you very much for your help in advance.

 

[fandroid]

Chiltern have been very slow recently. There's a current thread where the incident happened in September and Chiltern has only just written.

It's quite likely that the person who replied to your email will not have known any details of your case, or where it is in the system. As you haven't received a reference number from the company, it's probably extremely difficult for anyone there to find your file. We still advise patience.

 

[gholamkabuj]

Chiltern have been very slow recently. There's a current thread where the incident happened in September and Chiltern has only just written.

It's quite likely that the person who replied to your email will not have known any details of your case, or where it is in the system. As you haven't received a reference number from the company, it's probably extremely difficult for anyone there to find your file. We still advise patience.

Thank you for your answer. My main concern is how I can be sure not to have missed anything from them? I think I put my address correctly but I cannot be 100% sure given the situation back then.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you for your answer. My main concern is how I can be sure not to have missed anything from them? I think I put my address correctly but I cannot be 100% sure given the situation back then.

Ultimately, there can be no guarantee that human error hasn't occurred.

But for court matters, there is a fallback position. If ultimately it turns out that you were prosecuted without your knowledge and convicted in your absence, there is a mechanism for you to tell the court that you didn't know about the prosecution, and have the case reheard - possibly with a more favourable outcome for you. On this forum (and probably more widely) this is known as the 'statutory declaration' process.

The statutory declaration process isn't easy to deal with - but please be reassured that if the worst happens in this case there will still be an opportunity to make sure that you can present your case.

 

[Hadders]

It is likely that Chiltern are corresponding with companies like Trainline to get details of your ticket purchasing history before writing to you. This takes time and we know that Chiltern are very busy handling these sort of cases at present which is probably why you haven't heard from them yet.

 

[gholamkabuj]

It is likely that Chiltern are corresponding with companies like Trainline to get details of your ticket purchasing history before writing to you. This takes time and we know that Chiltern are very busy handling these sort of cases at present which is probably why you haven't heard from them yet.

I understand. Is there anything I can/should do now? For example, contacting them again to make sure I have not missed anything from them?

 

[AlterEgo]

I understand. Is there anything I can/should do now? For example, contacting them again to make sure I have not missed anything from them?

No. We are seeing a lot of cases from Chiltern now where the incident happened in September and contact is happening only five months later.

 

[gholamkabuj]

Hello all.

I've got a question about SD. Suppose that I do not receive a letter from the TOC (it is lost) and the matter goes to court without my knowledge. I have been told that there is the option of SD in this case. Does it mean that it could revert back the conviction, if the TOC is willing to settle out of court?

Thank you!

 

[methecooldude]

Hello all.

I've got a question about SD. Suppose that I do not receive a letter from the TOC (it is lost) and the matter goes to court without my knowledge. I have been told that there is the option of SD in this case. Does it mean that it could revert back the conviction, if the TOC is willing to settle out of court?

Thank you!

Is that 'is it lost' as in you misplaced it or you haven't received it?

Either way, you'll receive court documents though the post. An SD is only doing if you absolutely zero knowledge of any court proceedings against you

 

[Titfield]

A statutory declaration resets the clock in that the conviction is set aside. However when you make the declaration you will have to enter a plea. If you plead guilty then there is the risk that the matter will proceed immediately to court and sentencing will then take place ie you will be in the same position. You will have to plead not guilty for a court date in the future to be set to allow you time to enter into a dialogue with the Train Operating Company.

You could of course contact the TOC (on the basis that you can and will legitimately make a statutory declaration) and ask them if they will agree to an out of court settlement and thus they can then withdraw their court case.

Abusing the Statutory Declaration could land you in very hot water legally.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Just to reinforce the above comment, perjury can land you in jail. For a good example of how a relatively minor offence ended up with a jail sentence google Chris Huhne. So don’t even think about saying anything that isn’t absolutely true on your SD. It’s not worth it.

 

[gholamkabuj]

Thank you everyone for your response.
No I didn't mean perjury in any way. It's been 4 months and I haven't received anything yet. I even contacted them and they said they will get back to me in due time (not sure if the person took the time to look up my case though).

Is that 'is it lost' as in you misplaced it or you haven't received it?

Either way, you'll receive court documents though the post. An SD is only doing if you absolutely zero knowledge of any court proceedings against you

I don't know if Chiltern has processed my case yet. I'm just worried if something has been lost that I haven't heard back at all.

A statutory declaration resets the clock in that the conviction is set aside. However when you make the declaration you will have to enter a plea. If you plead guilty then there is the risk that the matter will proceed immediately to court and sentencing will then take place ie you will be in the same position. You will have to plead not guilty for a court date in the future to be set to allow you time to enter into a dialogue with the Train Operating Company.

You could of course contact the TOC (on the basis that you can and will legitimately make a statutory declaration) and ask them if they will agree to an out of court settlement and thus they can then withdraw their court case.

Abusing the Statutory Declaration could land you in very hot water legally.

So you mean even if the court has processed the case with a conviction outcome, it can revert that back through a settlement with the TOC (ofc, if they are willing to do so)?

Just to reinforce the above comment, perjury can land you in jail. For a good example of how a relatively minor offence ended up with a jail sentence google Chris Huhne. So don’t even think about saying anything that isn’t absolutely true on your SD. It’s not worth it.

Understood. Thanks a lot for the warning.

 

[Titfield]

Thank you everyone for your response.
No I didn't mean perjury in any way. It's been 4 months and I haven't received anything yet. I even contacted them and they said they will get back to me in due time (not sure if the person took the time to look up my case though).


I don't know if Chiltern has processed my case yet. I'm just worried if something has been lost that I haven't heard back at all.


So you mean even if the court has processed the case with a conviction outcome, it can revert that back through a settlement with the TOC (ofc, if they are willing to do so)?


Understood. Thanks a lot for the warning.

Yes a statutory declaration is a declaration by you that you had not been notified of the court case taking place against you. Not knowing about the proceedings before the case is heard is automatically unfair as you have been denied the opportunity to plead.

The Statutory Declaration then means that the outcome of the case is set aside ie it is if the case was not heard.

However the case can not be left unresolved. The case can then be heard (and you plead either guilty and sentence is passed or you plead not not guilty and the court makes its decision) or the case can be withdrawn by the Train Operating Company. You will have to persuade the TOC to withdraw the case and in its place agree to an out of court settlement. You would need to explain to the TOC that you will be submitting a Statutory Declaration which sets aside the decision (which was in their favour) and thus their is time to come to a n out of court settlement.

It is crucial that you understand that in the case of an SD there are strict timescales which must be adhered to. You must also fully understand that you must not allow the case to proceed to court straightaway when you make the SD. If you make the SD and then say you are pleading guilty the case will go straight to court and you will not have time to agree an out of court settlement with the TOC.

 

[gholamkabuj]

Hello,

It's been 5 months and I haven't received a letter yet. Shall I reach out to Chiltern? Or any other suggestion?

Thank you for your help in advance!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello,

It's been 5 months and I haven't received a letter yet. Shall I reach out to Chiltern? Or any other suggestion?

Thank you for your help in advance!

At this point, there's a possibility that the railway have decided to take no action so you may not hear from them.

Without having re-read the whole thread, I see from post #51 that you have already chased the railway once. So if it turns out that they are pursuing you and you didn't find out, then you are in a position to say that you took all reasonable steps to keep in touch: you reminded them and even so they didn't manage to contact you.

So keep an eye on your post and emails (also check your spam box regularly in case anything has ended up in there) - but if you haven't heard anything after maybe seven months (six months for the railway to notify the court, and a little extra for the court to notify you) then you can reasonably assume that no action will be taken.

 

[gholamkabuj]

At this point, there's a possibility that the railway have decided to take no action so you may not hear from them.

Without having re-read the whole thread, I see from post #51 that you have already chased the railway once. So if it turns out that they are pursuing you and you didn't find out, then you are in a position to say that you took all reasonable steps to keep in touch: you reminded them and even so they didn't manage to contact you.

So keep an eye on your post and emails (also check your spam box regularly in case anything has ended up in there) - but if you haven't heard anything after maybe seven months (six months for the railway to notify the court, and a little extra for the court to notify you) then you can reasonably assume that no action will be taken.

Thank you very much, @Fawkes Cat. I see.

But how can I make sure that I have not missed the letter? I want to avoid the case being handled by court without me realising it. Shall I contact Chiltern again?

 

[Titfield]

The only way you can make sure that you have not missed a letter is by contacting them.

Self evidently the outcome could be (a) letter missed - urgent action needed (b) no letter as matter not got to top of pile (c) your contact initiates action being taken (d) no letter as matter dropped but I would expect a verbal warning by post.

There is no right answer what to do. If you are that worried I think I would contact them as certainty (even if it is action being taken) is better to you than the anxiety of uncertainty.

 

[gholamkabuj]

So, I finally received the letter with an SJP. It is pretty much the same as the other ones we have been seeing on the forum lately. I have attached it.
Following the advice commonly given here, I have drafted a letter.
Full disclosure, I had avoided the correct fare on a handful other occasions in the past that I genuinely regret now. I would do whatever it takes to settle it out of court now. Ideally, I would like to also avoid the interview since it is very stressful for me and I would need to hire a solicitor which is very expensive for me. I didn't stress it too much in the letter (not to give a sob story), but I have been dealing with chronic anxiety for which I am taking medicine. So I would like to avoid such a stressful encounter. Here is the draft, I would appreciate any feedback, comment, and help:

"Hello,

I am writing you with regards to the letter I received with customer reference xxx.

I would like to express my deepest regrets in my actions. I sincerely apologise and I am embarrassed by any inconvenience and hurt that I caused. I now better understand the gravity of my actions. I take full responsibility for them and would do anything to rectify them.

Ever since this incident, I have paid the utmost attention in paying the correct fare and having the correct ticket, and I assure you that I will never lose sight of that principle. Upon receiving this letter, I have looked at my Trainline history to see that I have not paid the correct fare several times. I fully understand and own up my total lack of judgement.

I am a PhD student, and it would be extremely detrimental to my future if this were to progress to a criminal conviction. I would be very grateful to you if this matter could be settled out of court. I take full responsibility and would be happy to pay any outstanding fares and administration costs, as Chiltern deems appropriate. Please rest assured that there will be no repeat of this behaviour, neither in this matter nor generally in my life.

I would like to finish by reiterating my sincere apologies and my full commitment to amend my actions."

 

[Brissle Girl]

It’s a bit long and repetitive, so needs to be cut down, maybe by a third.

I’d delete the bit about being a loyal customer, as they tend to pay the correct fare and not fare dodge.

If you are to avoid an interview I suggest you need to confirm previous instances, as they refer to it in the letter. It will help them if you can be specific as to the number of journeys made, and show you are being fully cooperative.

I’m not sure the relevance of the railcard point, as I dont think it was an issue in the case when you were stopped?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'd agree with Brissie Girl. It's far too long.
I'd lose "first off" and just start at "I would"
I'd drop the waffle about being a loyal customer, if you were truly loyal you have paid the full fare, so it comes across as insincere.
I'd completely lose the next paragraph & condense the next one considerably. They don't care about your health or personal issues, just that you're going to pay the correct fare going forward. But you could, in a very much briefer way, say you'd like to settle the matter by paying the outstanding fares and administrative costs.

 

[gholamkabuj]

It’s a bit long and repetitive, so needs to be cut down, maybe by a third.

I’d delete the bit about being a loyal customer, as they tend to pay the correct fare and not fare dodge.

If you are to avoid an interview I suggest you need to confirm previous instances, as they refer to it in the letter. It will help them if you can be specific as to the number of journeys made, and show you are being fully cooperative.

I’m not sure the relevance of the railcard point, as I dont think it was an issue in the case when you were stopped?

I'd agree with Brissie Girl. It's far too long.
I'd lose "first off" and just start at "I would"
I'd drop the waffle about being a loyal customer, if you were truly loyal you have paid the full fare, so it comes across as insincere.
I'd completely lose the next paragraph & condense the next one considerably. They don't care about your health or personal issues, just that you're going to pay the correct fare going forward. But you could, in a very much briefer way, say you'd like to settle the matter by paying the outstanding fares and administrative costs.

Thank you both for your very helpful feedback.
I edited my draft. I wonder if I should be more specific about other instances as it is often said here that I should not incriminate myself? I do want to be fully cooperative though..

I had mentioned the railcard since because of this line in the letter: "If you have a valid railcard but were unable ot produce ti ot the rail official on the day ni question, please email a copy of any railcards you hold or previously held for us to review." But it does not apply to me?

"Hello,

I am writing you with regards to the letter I received with customer reference xxx.

I would like to express my deepest regrets in my actions. I sincerely apologise and I am embarrassed by any inconvenience and hurt that I caused. I now better understand the gravity of my actions. I take full responsibility for them and would do anything to rectify them.

Ever since this incident, I have paid the utmost attention in paying the correct fare and having the correct ticket, and I assure you that I will never lose sight of that principle. Upon receiving this letter, I have looked at my Trainline history to see that I have not paid the correct fare several times. I fully understand and own up my total lack of judgement.

I am a PhD student, and it would be extremely detrimental to my future if this were to progress to a criminal conviction. I would be very grateful to you if this matter could be settled out of court. I take full responsibility and would be happy to pay any outstanding fares and administration costs, as Chiltern deems appropriate. Please rest assured that there will be no repeat of this behaviour, neither in this matter nor generally in my life.

I would like to finish by reiterating my sincere apologies and my full commitment to amend my actions."
"

 

[Haywain]

"Hello,

I am writing you with regards to the letter I received with customer reference xxx.

I would like to express my deepest regrets in my actions. I sincerely apologise and I am embarrassed by any inconvenience and hurt that I caused. I now better understand the graveness of my actions. I take full responsibility for them and would do anything to rectify them.

Ever since this incidence, I have paid the utmost attention in paying the correct fare and having the correct ticket, and I assure you that I will never lose sight of that principle. Upon receiving this letter, I have looked at my Trainline history to see that I have not paid the correct fare several times. I fully understand and own up my total lack of judgement.

Gravity, not graveness, and incident, not incidence. But well done for using utmost, and not the increasingly irritating upmost!

I am a PhD student, and it would be life changing and extremely detrimental to my future if this were to progress to a criminal conviction issue. I would be indefinitely grateful to you if this matter could be settled out of court. I take full responsibility and would be happy to pay the outstanding fares and administration costs do whatever necessary to rectify the incurred costs, as Chiltern deems appropriate. Please rest assured that there will be no repeat of this behaviour I will have the paramount attention to the rules, both in this matter and also in life. Having said that, regarding the interview dates, I will be available every morning in the week starting from 13th May.

I would like to finish by reiterating my sincere apologies and my full commitment to amend my actions."

You have used some rather odd words and terms in this section (has ChatGPT played a part?), and it could do with being simplified. I have shown my suggested changes above. I think at this stage it would be best not to mention availability for an interview as the ideal result is to avoid that. Chiltern will respond if they still wish to go down that route.