Cautioned due to expired railcard

[hiewuhiweu]

Hi all,

Unfortunately, my girlfriend come into an issue (she's in the air atm) so I'm doing some research for her.

Journey from: London Liverpool Street
Journey to: Stansted Airport (SSD)

GF arrived at SSD with a ticket and a railcard (16-25). When asked to present her railcard, a member of staff brought to her attention that the railcard had expired. GF had completely forgotten her railcard expired. She was then cautioned by this member of staff but didn't understand exactly what the member of staff said. She doesn't remember what else the member of staff said but from our research, it seems like she will get a letter of intent to prosecute.

GF has very bad anxiety so she's very concerned about this. She's also applying for their British citizenship so she's concerned about what ramifications a caution may have on that application.

Some other info:

• Railcard expired in February 2023.
• As soon as it was brought to her attention that the railcard was expired, she purchased another to ensure this doesn't happen again.
• She was given a PFN 10 years ago.
• She made another journey unknowingly with this expired railcard a few days after it expired.

I'd love to know:

1. Will this caution impact her citizen application? i.e. is this a formal police caution? is this caution declarable?
2. How should she react once she gets the letter?
3. Is it worth getting in touch with the train company beforehand?
4. What is the likelihood of this being brought to court?
5. Any other insight, advice you have.

It goes without saying that she's more than happy to reimburse any costs that the train company has, etc.

P.S. Thank you to all for your contributions to the forum. It's great having such valuable insight.

P.S.S. GF is of course very remorseful that she didn't double-check her travel documents before flying. She has lived in the UK since she was 12 and has always crossed the ts and dotted the is on everything she does so it's upsetting to see that she's an anxious wreck over something that she genuinely forgot about.

Thanks! And I hope you all enjoyed your BH!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

Unfortunately, my girlfriend come into an issue (she's in the air atm) so I'm doing some research for her.

Journey from: London Liverpool Street
Journey to: Stansted Airport (SSD)

GF arrived at SSD with a ticket and a railcard (16-25). When asked to present her railcard, a member of staff brought to her attention that the railcard had expired. GF had completely forgotten her railcard expired. She was then cautioned by this member of staff but didn't understand exactly what the member of staff said. She doesn't remember what else the member of staff said but from our research, it seems like she will get a letter of intent to prosecute.

GF has very bad anxiety so she's very concerned about this. She's also applying for their British citizenship so she's concerned about what ramifications a caution may have on that application.

Some other info:

• Railcard expired in February 2023.
• As soon as it was brought to her attention that the railcard was expired, she purchased another to ensure this doesn't happen again.
• She was given a PFN 10 years ago.
• She made another journey unknowingly with this expired railcard a few days after it expired.

I'd love to know:

1. Will this caution impact her citizen application? i.e. is this a formal police caution? is this caution declarable?
2. How should she react once she gets the letter?
3. Is it worth getting in touch with the train company beforehand?
4. What is the likelihood of this being brought to court?
5. Any other insight, advice you have.

It goes without saying that she's more than happy to reimburse any costs that the train company has, etc.

P.S. Thank you to all for your contributions to the forum. It's great having such valuable insight.

P.S.S. GF is of course very remorseful that she didn't double-check her travel documents before flying. She has lived in the UK since she was 12 and has always crossed the ts and dotted the is on everything she does so it's upsetting to see that she's an anxious wreck over something that she genuinely forgot about.

Thanks! And I hope you all enjoyed your BH!

Hi - and welcome
It's always said on here that immigration / visa advice is not permitted - so ppl won't be able to comment on that - but it won't become an issue unless the action taken here results in court action and GF found guilty (she would be at court given what you said happened). The train company will likley write to her (did she give a correct address that she can be contacted at over the next few months?, is it in the UK?) and it is vital that she engages with that to apologise and ask for an out of court settlement.

Re your q's

1a) Will this caution impact her citizen application?
No idea

1b) i.e. is this a formal police caution? is this caution declarable?
Who did she speak to? Police or station / railway staff. I suspect she has not been given a caution for the ticket offence, but a warning that what she says could be used in a potential prosecution against her. That has not happened as yet. I think that is how it works. Can you be clearer about who stopped her, where this happened, was she issued with any papers by the person who stopped her?

2) How should she react once she gets the letter?
Reply to it ASAP, explain it was a genuine mistake, apologise, ask them to consider if they will settle the matter without recourse to court action. Feel free to post draft reply on here if you would like feedback on content. This would probably be a good idea.

3) Is it worth getting in touch with the train company beforehand?
No. Until the case is allocated a ref number etc it just makes it all more complex. They probably deal with 100s of ticket 'evasions' every week (if not every day...), I'm afraid your GF will need to wait for the letter.

4) What is the likelihood of this being brought to court?
Not impossible but good chance it can be avoided. Which train company staff was it? Greater Anglia?

5) Any other insight, advice you have.
They they will check on line ticket buying records for other instances where this has occurred. So in the meantime check ticket buying records to ensure you know any other instances in case they raise it.
Be sure to be able to obtain conventional paper posted letters at the address given to the train company.

Plenty of good advice will be forthcoming on here as and when it's needed. In the meantime nothing much can be done so best not to worry about it.

 

[pedr]

Just to comment on the ’caution’ confusion: the term ‘caution’ is used for two completely different things in the English criminal justice system. This is a terrible state of affairs, but it’s where we are. The kind of ‘caution’ which can sometimes be declared to employers and which is a formal end to criminal justice proceedings is not relevant to interactions with railway guards, ticket inspectors, etc. The ’caution’ which is read/said out loud before questioning is something quite different. All it is is a warning that you have a (limited) right to remain silent, and the implications of responding or not responding to the questions asked. This is not ‘a caution’ in the first sense, and isn’t in itself an allegation or an acknowledgement of any kind of guilt.

However, as mentioned, anyone with questions relating to immigration should direct them to an immigration advisor.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to comment on the ’caution’ confusion: the term ‘caution’ is used for two completely different things in the English criminal justice system. This is a terrible state of affairs, but it’s where we are. The kind of ‘caution’ which can sometimes be declared to employers and which is a formal end to criminal justice proceedings is not relevant to interactions with railway guards, ticket inspectors, etc. The ’caution’ which is read/said out loud before questioning is something quite different. All it is is a warning that you have a (limited) right to remain silent, and the implications of responding or not responding to the questions asked.

To be clear to other posters (and not suggesting you didn't know this!) the right to silence is extremely wide ranging and there are only a few exceptions where someone commits an offence by refusing to answer a question, none of which are relevant to fares offences.

 

[spag23]

With apologies to forum members who have seen me post this dozens of times....
Note the expiry date of the new card somewhere where it will reliably alert the holder in time to renew it.
Diary, wallchart, phone app, whatever.
The issuer may send a reminder, but you can't rely on it.
And - unlike one recent poster - when you do become aware of an imminent expiry, don't procrastinate, and forget the renewal! You want to avoid a recurrence of this offence in 13 months time.
In this case, the period involved is relatively short, and the journeys made minimal. So this, and the immediate renewal, may weigh in the GF's favour in terms of the Company's forthcoming letter.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just to comment on the ’caution’ confusion: the term ‘caution’ is used for two completely different things in the English criminal justice system. This is a terrible state of affairs, but it’s where we are. The kind of ‘caution’ which can sometimes be declared to employers and which is a formal end to criminal justice proceedings is not relevant to interactions with railway guards, ticket inspectors, etc. The ’caution’ which is read/said out loud before questioning is something quite different. All it is is a warning that you have a (limited) right to remain silent, and the implications of responding or not responding to the questions asked. This is not ‘a caution’ in the first sense, and isn’t in itself an allegation or an acknowledgement of any kind of guilt.

However, as mentioned, anyone with questions relating to immigration should direct them to an immigration advisor.

Thanks for explaining this, I hope it helps the OP and their girlfriend understand what happened when stopped and asked about her ticket and Railcard.

 

[L401CJF]

A good piece of advice would be for your friend to renew their railcard asap. This would help to show that it was a genuine mistake, also that they have learnt from their mistake and do not intend to avoid further fares. Also worth mentioning if they renew the railcard, to set a reminder on their phone or other method to remind them when it expires to ensure it doesn't happen again.

This would show Train Operating Company (TOC) that the friend has taken steps to ensure they don't end up in the same situation.

For now, renew the railcard, and wait for communication from the TOC.

 

[MotCO]

A good piece of advice would be for your friend to renew their railcard asap. This would help to show that it was a genuine mistake, also that they have learnt from their mistake and do not intend to avoid further fares. Also worth mentioning if they renew the railcard, to set a reminder on their phone or other method to remind them when it expires to ensure it doesn't happen again.

This would show Train Operating Company (TOC) that the friend has taken steps to ensure they don't end up in the same situation.

For now, renew the railcard, and wait for communication from the TOC.

The OP has said that that the friend has already done this.

To the OP: since it may be a few weeks before you receive any letter, it may be useful to make a note of what happened whilst it is still fresh in your friend's mind - where your friend was, the trains caught, tickets held, what was said etc. You can add to this as you remember more details. This may help form your formal reply,

 

[UserM]

To be clear to other posters (and not suggesting you didn't know this!) the right to silence is extremely wide ranging and there are only a few exceptions where someone commits an offence by refusing to answer a question, none of which are relevant to fares offences.

Although it should be noted, that it may harm any defence you have if you do not mention it when placed under caution. Indeed this is specifically mentioned in the caution used by the police.

‘ You do not have to say anything. But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence’

This is important to note, though in terms of speaking to a RPI, it will almost certainly be in your interest to only answer your name, date of birth and address (as you are legally obliged to) then answer no comment to any further questions.

A good piece of reading on this topic can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights

Although as I stated it is important to note the differences when speaking to a Police Officer or anyone else who is authorised and trained to use the PACE caution.

 

[AlterEgo]

Although it should be noted, that it may harm any defence you have if you do not mention it when placed under caution. Indeed this is specifically mentioned in the caution used by the police.

‘ You do not have to say anything. But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence’

This is important to note, though in terms of speaking to a RPI, it will almost certainly be in your interest to only answer your name, date of birth and address (as you are legally obliged to) then answer no comment to any further questions.

A good piece of reading on this topic can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights

Although as I stated it is important to note the differences when speaking to a Police Officer or anyone else who is authorised and trained to use the PACE caution.

The important thing is that if you are arrested and taken to a police station you are entitled to have a solicitor present at no cost to you. A solicitor will be able to advise what, if any defence you have and what, if anything, to mention to the police.

If and until you have legal representation, “no comment” to any and all questions except to give personal details. It should be taught at school.

Never ever mistake one’s own intelligence and savvy for legal advantage!

 

[Haywain]

Indeed this is specifically mentioned in the caution used by the police.

It is specifically mentioned in the caution used by Revenue Protection staff. It is a standard PACE caution.

 

[WesternLancer]

Although it should be noted, that it may harm any defence you have if you do not mention it when placed under caution. Indeed this is specifically mentioned in the caution used by the police.

‘ You do not have to say anything. But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence’

This is important to note, though in terms of speaking to a RPI, it will almost certainly be in your interest to only answer your name, date of birth and address (as you are legally obliged to) then answer no comment to any further questions.

A good piece of reading on this topic can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights

Although as I stated it is important to note the differences when speaking to a Police Officer or anyone else who is authorised and trained to use the PACE caution.

Yes. But the reality of a situation where a railcard renewal has been forgotten is that many people would say along lines of 'I didn't relaise it had expired, I'm very sorry, can I put that right', ie they have made an honest mistake and will expect the railway staff to understand that, rightly or wrongly.

However,

I think the OP was confused between that sort of caution that you describe (sometimes called 'being read your rights' I believe) and a 'caution issued by the police' which I believe is some sort of alternative to being prosecuted
as per the explanation here I think:

Does a police caution show on a DBS check? - #FairChecks

A police caution is a low-level sanction given by the police. It can appear on a criminal background check (DBS check), but not in all cases.

fairchecks.org.uk

What is a caution?​

Cautions are low-level sanctions given out by the police. They are normally used to respond to minor criminal offences such as shoplifting or graffiti. The police often give cautions as a quick way of resolving crime without going to court.

As a bit of an irony the (I suspect made up) example then cited actually involves fare evasion! I don't think we've seen one of these on the forum any time in the recent past though.

This govt link may be better

Police cautions, warnings and penalty notices

The police or Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) can give you a caution (warning) or a penalty notice if you commit a minor crime

www.gov.uk

Cautions​

Cautions are given to anyone aged 10 or over for minor crimes - for example writing graffiti on a bus shelter.
You have to admit an offence and agree to be cautioned. You can be arrested and charged if you don’t agree.
A caution is not a criminal conviction, but it could be used as evidence of bad character if you go to court for another crime.

Until we know more about exactly what happened to the OP's GF at Stansted Airport station we can't be 100% sure but I strongly have ahunch that they were stopped and questioned by a member of Greater Anglia Railway staff, found to have an invalid railcard and their details taken to pass on to railway revenue protection team. During that conversation at the station details would have been noted down of what was said by the passenger in case Revenue Protection wish to or feel the need to prosecute and thus need that info as evidence in court. Hence the GF would have been 'read her rights' at the station.

It's far more likely that the GF will in due course be sent a letter from the railway company threatening prosecution but also asking for their version of events, which is the chance to apologise, recognize the error, say what they have done to prevent it happening again, and ask to settle the matter out of court. It will be with this that we can probably best help.

Until we hear more from the OP / GF we can not be sure, but it would seem likely that she has not been issued with a 'Police Caution', at least not without being given some paperwork that would confirm it.

 

[pedr]

Not being any kind of practitioner I’m not qualified to comment on the practical effect of the possible drawing of adverse inferences from initial “no comment” responses, but since in theory exercising a right to remain silent can have negative consequences in certain circumstances, I’m not comfortable calling it an unlimited right. I can imagine circumstances where it could be counterproductive to refuse to answer revenue inspectors’ questions or where silence might call into question the truthfulness of a subsequently-offered explanation.

That’s tangential to this situation though, except to explain the wording of the PACE caution.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not being any kind of practitioner I’m not qualified to comment on the practical effect of the possible drawing of adverse inferences from initial “no comment” responses, but since in theory exercising a right to remain silent can have negative consequences in certain circumstances, I’m not comfortable calling it an unlimited right. I can imagine circumstances where it could be counterproductive to refuse to answer revenue inspectors’ questions or where silence might call into question the truthfulness of a subsequently-offered explanation.

That’s tangential to this situation though, except to explain the wording of the PACE caution.

Well, it strikes me that it wouldn't help that much with the 'attitude test' as mentioned on Rail Forums fairly often
Having said that, it's clear that many people when answering questions from revenue inspectors etc explain their errors in a way that admits to having committed a ticketing offence and thus give enough evidence to secure a conviction at court if prosecuted (as I expect will have happened in this case). Luckily, that of the ppl who keep us informed of the outcomes of their cases, with the advice on here a large number / majority of those get a settlement and matters don't end up in court.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate situation and I do have to say we are seeing lots of cases of expired railcards in this section of the forum at the moment.

Will this caution impact her citizen application? i.e. is this a formal police caution? is this caution declarable?

Legally we are not able to offer advice on citizenship applications. On a general point your GF will have been cautioned by the railway ticket inspectors before they questioned her. This is not the same as a caution given by the police instead of prosecution for a minor offence.

How should she react once she gets the letter?

I recommend including the following in the reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story as they've heard it all before.

Is it worth getting in touch with the train company beforehand?

No. As explaimed above train companies deal with lots of these cases and your GF will just have to wait until the initial letter arrives.

What is the likelihood of this being brought to court?

Greater Anglia are normally one of the more pragmatic train companies when it comes to offering out of court settlements. I would say there is a good chance of it not going to court as long as you engage with the process. Getting a Penalty Fare 10 years ago won't have an impact.

Any other insight, advice you have.

If your GF is offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and she won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.

 

[Hadders]

Hi, I was reading through this forum because the exact thing happened to me today at stansted airport, which cause me huge amounts of stress and now I’m dealing with a lot of anxiety from an honest mistake. What was the outcome of your girlfriends situation if you don’t mind me asking?

Thanks!

Please start a new thread about your incident. This is because it can become confusing if more than once incident is discussed in the same thread, and also becuase in our experience no two cases are ever quite the same.

 

[Mouse2424]

What happened in this case in the end? Does anyone know how long it takes for the letter to come through?

 

[Hadders]

What happened in this case in the end? Does anyone know how long it takes for the letter to come through?

Please start your own thread with details of your case to enable us to offer the best advice. This is because no two cases ever ever exactly the same.

 

[AlterEgo]

What happened in this case in the end? Does anyone know how long it takes for the letter to come through?

Please start a new thread about your issue and avoid bumping other, older threads; no two cases are the same.