Central locking for heritage trains

[paul1609]

Bit of wire, a few magnets and a switch, and the job's a good'un !!

On a MK1 steam heat coach add a power source, control line running the length of the train, inter vehicle connections, Power line running the length of the train (or power source in each coach). Industry approval for scheme ££££.

 

[Dougal2345]

Welcome to the forum and the only point I was trying to make is that it's requested that if you post any external source that you also include it as a quote, in part or in full. It means that, even if it's not behind a pay wall, in two years' time the thread will still make sense because the link will probably no longer work, for example.

I do wonder if quoting articles in full is really justifiable from a copyright perspective...? If a newspaper or magazine has gone to the expense of researching and writing an article, it seems a bit cheeky for someone here to copy it in its entirety and for all of us to read it for free! Especially if it were behind a pay wall...

Although it does seem to be established forum policy as you say - in the past when I've tried to post a link and some text just giving a flavour of the article, I've come back later to find my post amended to include the whole thing!

 

[jfollows]

I see no issue with posting a complete article provided it's appropriately attributed, and if appropriate comments and observations are made about the article to stimulate discussion. I can't see that Rupert Murdoch is going to be concerned about people reading his articles on this forum, especially if they're acknowledged properly as such. The quality of the articles might even make extra people pay his subscription fee, so it's free advertising for him.

The alternative of posting a link only, even when it's not to something behind a paywall, is bad, and just more so when it's to something behind a paywall.

The forum rules (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/forum-rules.27358/) state

• If referring to an external text-based source, you should put a suitable section of the text in QUOTE tags and provide, as appropriate, details of the source and a relevant comment to promote discussion.

and, clearly, it's up to the poster to decide how much of the source article it's appropriate to post so as to be "suitable". So I don't always post the entire article.

PS And I sometimes get picked up on not posting the text myself, I try to remember but I'm fallible.

Also (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright):

Fair dealing for criticism, review or quotation is allowed for any type of copyright work. Fair dealing with a work for the purpose of reporting current events is allowed for any type of copyright work other than a photograph. In each of these cases, a sufficient acknowledgement will be required.

As stated, a photograph cannot be reproduced for the purpose of reporting current events. The intention of the law is to prevent newspapers or magazines reproducing photographs for reporting current events which have appeared in competitor’s publications.

I usually remove photographs from articles I quote. I also don’t correct grammatical mistakes!
Also (https://www.bl.uk/business-and-ip-centre/articles/fair-dealing-copyright-explained):

The concept of fair usage exists within UK copyright law; commonly referred to as fair dealing, or free use and fair practice. It’s a framework designed to allow the lawful use or reproduction of work without having to seek permission from the copyright owner(s) or creator(s) or infringing their interest.

As an exception to British copyright law, fair dealing is governed by Sections 29 and 30 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, which outlines three instance where fair dealing is a legitimate defence:

• If the use is for the purposes of research or private study;
• If it is used for the purposes of criticism, review or quotation;
• Where it is utilised for the purposes of reporting current events (this does not apply to photographs)

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Let’s just remember here that this is the same ORR who apparently have the view that third rail DC electrification is unsafe, and there are basically no circumstances where they will permit it to be extended even to the point of requiring alternative power supply sources and hugely expensive dual-voltage bespoke rolling stock. This despite the fact there are hundred of route miles of 3rd rail in daily operation, in a completely acceptably safe manner.

I have no doubt that this ORR will be mightily satisfied if it manages to remove heritage charter operations from the national network, despite the platitudes. It’s just a shame that the sector is seemingly defined by a gung-ho operator like WCRC, as that isn’t helping matters whatsoever.

 

[MotCO]

Is the attraction of steam trains being pulled by a steam train, or the ride in a Mark 1, 2 or 3 carriage? If the former, could WRCR etc hire some Mark 4 coaches as the need arises?

 

[eldomtom2]

Is the attraction of steam trains being pulled by a steam train, or the ride in a Mark 1, 2 or 3 carriage? If the former, could WRCR etc hire some Mark 4 coaches as the need arises?

Does the Jacobite use compartment carriages? If so, I imagine that's part of the appeal.

 

[TRXsouth]

Let’s just remember here that this is the same ORR who apparently have the view that third rail DC electrification is unsafe, and there are basically no circumstances where they will permit it to be extended

The Southern network is gaining a third rail extension at Belmont with the project to install the new turnback siding, so there must be some ORR leeway.

 

[paul1609]

Does the Jacobite use compartment carriages? If so, I imagine that's part of the appeal.

No they are all Mk1 open coaches.

Is the attraction of steam trains being pulled by a steam train, or the ride in a Mark 1, 2 or 3 carriage? If the former, could WRCR etc hire some Mark 4 coaches as the need arises?

Anything with Aircon Mk 2d? onwards is going to need either a Diesel Loco on the back or a generator coach. As the length of the trains is limited on the line that's going to affect the financial viability of the operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anything with Aircon Mk 2d? onwards is going to need either a Diesel Loco on the back or a generator coach. As the length of the trains is limited on the line that's going to affect the financial viability of the operation.

Plus that people want to be able to hear and smell the steam locomotive. Aircon coaches don't offer that. Though fitting hopper windows to Mk2 aircons is possible, the Virgin West Coast sets had a few per coach for the inevitable aircon failures.

 

[Killingworth]

Does the Jacobite use compartment carriages? If so, I imagine that's part of the appeal.

Yes it does,, from memory one or two per train, £385 a compartmet, see booking form; https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/book/jacobite/steam-train-trip

 

[Alanko]

I do wonder if quoting articles in full is really justifiable from a copyright perspective...? If a newspaper or magazine has gone to the expense of researching and writing an article, it seems a bit cheeky for someone here to copy it in its entirety and for all of us to read it for free! Especially if it were behind a pay wall...

Every day I understand less and less about what makes the average poster on here tick.

 

[Titfield]

Let’s just remember here that this is the same ORR who apparently have the view that third rail DC electrification is unsafe, and there are basically no circumstances where they will permit it to be extended even to the point of requiring alternative power supply sources and hugely expensive dual-voltage bespoke rolling stock. This despite the fact there are hundred of route miles of 3rd rail in daily operation, in a completely acceptably safe manner.

I have no doubt that this ORR will be mightily satisfied if it manages to remove heritage charter operations from the national network, despite the platitudes. It’s just a shame that the sector is seemingly defined by a gung-ho operator like WCRC, as that isn’t helping matters whatsoever.

In at least one other regulated industry to my knowledge, some operators "bitch" like mad about the unfairness of the regulator "they are out to get us" when the reality is that the operators consistently fail to meet safety standards and despite given guidance and advice, warnings, regulatory action short of licence revocation, still play the victim card when they are finally brought to account and the licence is lost.

 

[12LDA28C]

Is the attraction of steam trains being pulled by a steam train, or the ride in a Mark 1, 2 or 3 carriage? If the former, could WRCR etc hire some Mark 4 coaches as the need arises?

Are Mark 4 coaches passed for the West Highland Line and extension to Mallaig? As they've never been, somehow I doubt it.

 

[paul1609]

Are Mark 4 coaches passed for the West Highland Line and extension to Mallaig? As they've never been, somehow I doubt it.

I was wondering whether Mk3 were passed to Mallaig?

 

[Belfastmarty]

Anything with Aircon Mk 2d? onwards is going to need either a Diesel Loco on the back or a generator coach. As the length of the trains is limited on the line that's going to affect the financial viability of the opoperation

NIR had Mk2 generator vans converted from BFKs so potentially not the loss of a full coach.

 

[43096]

I have no doubt that this ORR will be mightily satisfied if it manages to remove heritage charter operations from the national network, despite the platitudes. It’s just a shame that the sector is seemingly defined by a gung-ho operator like WCRC, as that isn’t helping matters whatsoever.

But this isn't about the entire charter sector - it is about one operator who wants to play by a different set of rules to everyone else. That cannot be acceptable.

It should be noted that we've had 30 years of CDL on LHCS now, so it is not unreasonable that charter stock should now be so fitted - they've had long enough. Yes, I know there are issues with fitting vacuum brake and steam heat stock, but we really ought to be moving on from the 19th century.

 

[12LDA28C]

I was wondering whether Mk3 were passed to Mallaig?

They've been to Oban in BR days and with the sleepers and of course Fort William. Not sure about Mallaig - possibly on a BR landcruise?

 

[eldomtom2]

No they are all Mk1 open coaches.

Yes it does,, from memory one or two per train, £385 a compartmet, see booking form; https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/book/jacobite/steam-train-trip

So it's mostly opens with some compartments available for an extra fee?

 

[Killingworth]

So it's mostly opens with some compartments available for an extra fee?

Correct

 

[D6130]

They've been to Oban in BR days and with the sleepers and of course Fort William. Not sure about Mallaig - possibly on a BR landcruise?

I'm pretty certain that mark 3 coaches have never been to Mallaig. Perhaps @Cheshire Scot could confirm or otherwise?

 

[Killingworth]

I'm pretty certain that mark 3 coaches have never been to Mallaig. Perhaps @Cheshire Scot could confirm or otherwise?

Royal Scotsman goes to Mallaig. What do they use?

See; https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/scotland/belmond-royal-scotsman/

I think the .Midland Blue Pullman HST hss also gone to Mallaig.

 

[D6130]

Royal Scotsman goes to Mallaig. What do they use?

Ah yes....very true. I had forgotten about that!

 

[Dave S 56F]

Without knowing for certain, I would imagine that the NYMR is doing nothing, because isn’t the CDL requirement exempted from operations at 25mph or less? (It occurs to me that in the short term the Jacobite could probably be retimed for this speed without too much difficulty, although it might jeopardise the connection off the northbound sleeper at Fort William in order to maintain the cross at Glenfinnan.)

Think actually the line speed for vintage steam and diesel traction between Grosmont and Whitby is 30mph due to the sharp curves on the esk valley line although I have travelled to Battersby on N.Y.M.R. steam gala days when N.Y.M.R. did Whitby Battersby shuttles on gala days and the speed limit I think is 60mph.

 

[D6130]

Think actually the line speed for vintage steam and diesel traction between Grosmont and Whitby is 30mph due to the sharp curves on the esk valley line although I have travelled to Battersby on N.Y.M.R. steam gala days when N.Y.M.R. did Whitby Battersby shuttles on gala days and the speed limit I think is 60mph

IIRC, without consulting the Sectional Appendix, the speed limit for all trains between Grosmont and Whitby is 30 mph....for the reason stated. I think Battersby-Grosmont is either 45 or 50....but I'm open to correction on that.

 

[bleeder4]

Royal Scotsman goes to Mallaig. What do they use?

See; https://www.belmond.com/trains/europe/scotland/belmond-royal-scotsman/

I think the .Midland Blue Pullman HST hss also gone to Mallaig.

Yes, the Midland Pullman has been there many times. Ft William to Mallaig is Day 2 of their 3 day "West Highland Pullman", which they run several times a year. It will next be in Mallaig on 10th September, which I'll be on. Before then, it will be in Oban on 16th August.

What has always amused me about the whole CDL saga is that, even with it fitted, there's no ability to just unlock certain doors. Many times I've been on a Saphos and a Statesman trip and we've been sat at a station with my coach off the platform. Yet the door to the coach is unlocked, and any passenger could stick their arm out and open it if they wish, even though there is no platform there.

 

[LowLevel]

IIRC, without consulting the Sectional Appendix, the speed limit for all trains between Grosmont and Whitby is 30 mph....for the reason stated. I think Battersby-Grosmont is either 45 or 50....but I'm open to correction on that.

Correct, having just consulted the online version of said document

 

[driverd]

I don't exactly see the big deal. It's 2023 - it's not really acceptable to be using rolling stock at higher speeds where there still exists the risk of someone physically falling out. I appreciate its a low risk, but it still exists, none the less.

As others have mentioned, various precedents have been set (Hastings unit, 121 etc). This has been long on the horizon, so if any operator hasn't atleast made preparations for the legislation/allocated funding, it's really more a reflection on them (especially when many smaller heritage operators have gone out of their way to enact changes well before the deadline).

There's various solutions to many of the issues, specifically, if power and train length is an issue, something like the hybrid BSO/DBSO generator vans used by Network Rail would be able to achieve the power requirements whilst also maintaining seating space requirements. That's not me saying to put DBSOs in the formation - simply that a brake van vehicle already in the formation could sacrifice its storage space for a generator, without eating into passenger capacity.

This may be a costly project, but I do rather think an expensive legal case would only kick the can further down the road, spending money on lawyers rather than making a change that will, at some point, need to be made.

 

[yorksrob]

The Southern network is gaining a third rail extension at Belmont with the project to install the new turnback siding, so there must be some ORR leeway.

Not enough to enable a route extension though, so it seems.

 

[12C]

I don't exactly see the big deal. It's 2023 - it's not really acceptable to be using rolling stock at higher speeds where there still exists the risk of someone physically falling out. I appreciate its a low risk, but it still exists, none the less.

As others have mentioned, various precedents have been set (Hastings unit, 121 etc). This has been long on the horizon, so if any operator hasn't atleast made preparations for the legislation/allocated funding, it's really more a reflection on them (especially when many smaller heritage operators have gone out of their way to enact changes well before the deadline).

There's various solutions to many of the issues, specifically, if power and train length is an issue, something like the hybrid BSO/DBSO generator vans used by Network Rail would be able to achieve the power requirements whilst also maintaining seating space requirements. That's not me saying to put DBSOs in the formation - simply that a brake van vehicle already in the formation could sacrifice its storage space for a generator, without eating into passenger capacity.

This may be a costly project, but I do rather think an expensive legal case would only kick the can further down the road, spending money on lawyers rather than making a change that will, at some point, need to be made.

The coaches in question are all fitted with secondary door bolts, so providing they are not tampered with there is no (or very little) risk of anyone falling out. A simple breakable cover over the bolt, openable by traincrew, would remove the risk of passengers being able to access them.

You can never completely remove the risk of anyone potentially falling out with any rolling stock. As I mentioned above power operated CDL will fail as soon as it loses the power source. Even power operated doors on multiple units can, and have, opened in traffic. All are also fitted with emergency release handles which can be used by any member of the public, and occasionally have been used for passengers to detrain themselves during disruption.

 

[driverd]

The coaches in question are all fitted with secondary door bolts, so providing they are not tampered with there is no (or very little) risk of anyone falling out. A simple breakable cover over the bolt, openable by traincrew, would remove the risk of passengers being able to access them.

You can never completely remove the risk of anyone potentially falling out with any rolling stock...

I take your second point re: Never removing all risk, however, units generally have door/brake interlock and a slow speed relay, meaning even after pulling an egress, the door won't open unit practically at a stand.

Obviously this risk can't be mitigated by placing a cover over a bolt, however, to my mind, that seems like a perfectly sensible method of work. Would it not be worth WCR simply investing their legal money into implementing this modification (assuming it meets regulatory requirements)?